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Jesus and "Homo rationalis"

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Basically, with the notable exception that you are talking about a new paradigm that largely addresses suffering by eliminating it. I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. We are human. We suffer. Religion seeks not to eliminate suffering, but to help us understand and cope with suffering.

By "full circle," I meant that the paradigm may have begun happening, but is not by any stretch in full swing yet.

You sound a little dispensational to me, too. Maybe I'm misreading you, but this model of taking steps toward becoming something more than we now are, in order to "attain" holiness, or righteousness, or Nirvana, or whatever, sounds a little like the experiment on the Plain of Shinar. Christianity is plainly predicated upon grace and reconciliation -- God having made us acceptable, not upon our attaining anything.

I think that Jesus is far more concerned with our understanding our humanness than with our attaining divinity.
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
Sojourner, I guess I was mistaken. Good example of how people misunderstand each other, usually because of using the same words for different things. But I would like to respond to what you have said, to see if we really cannot agree, and if so, precisely what the difference is.

Basically, with the notable exception that you are talking about a new paradigm that largely addresses suffering by eliminating it. I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. We are human. We suffer. Religion seeks not to eliminate suffering, but to help us understand and cope with suffering.

I didn't understand the first sentence. But I certainly have a different idea about the functions of religion and probably even about what Jesus had in mind. But then, again, as I think about it, I see a certain validity in what you say. Of course, I agree with you, that a function of religion has always been to help individuals cope with suffering that they can't do anything about. And there always will be a certain amount of unavoidable suffering. But where we begin to diverge seems to be with regard to preventing suffering (and pain, and disability, and early death {PSDED}).

If we took a fairly fundamentalist approach, could we not say that the effort to save ourselves and each other is an effort to avoid suffering, e.g., everlasting suffering in Hell because of having angered God? But let's not be fundamentalist for awhile and consider that even non-fundamentalist religions, perhaps all religions, advocate that we live a certain way, meaning that we behave in certain ways (including internal behavior, called "thinking"). And these ways we are supposed to behave, are they not, most often, ways of behaving that make things better for us? Treat others as we would have others treat us? Be generous, kind, honest, understanding, etc. Don't we all sense that when people do these things, everyone seems to benefit (have more possible joy, contentment, and appreciation, and less PSDED)?

But now we can indeed also see that our current religions have some "imperfections" in them in that instead of preventing PSDED, they cause it! So that we avoid misunderstanding, I will list a few examples, namely, sacrificing virgins to the volcano god; crusades and jihads; burning witches; inquisitions; cyanide parties; suicide to enter Heaven's Gate; 9/11; sectarian violence; irrational guilt and self-hatred; exorcism deaths; excommunication; antiscience education; relationship breakdown from religious incompatibility; fear of God's vengeance; suttee; female genital mutilation; guilt-inducing doubt; discrimination; etc.

So religions do good (foster joy, contentment, and appreciation) and harm (PSDED). So there is room for improvement, right? Well, what would that improvement be other than the fostering of doing more good and less harm?

Think about it: we ourselves play a significant role in the vast majority of our PSDED. We engage in high risk behaviors, poison ourselves and our children with our diet, live unhealthily, cheat and lie, punish and avenge, reward displays of hostility and violence, maim and kill. And we decide the levees will hold, and we decide to go to war, and we decide to prevent prevention of unwanted pregnancy, and we decide to keep in prison people who don't need such supervision, and we decide to segregate, and we decide to make plentiful our instruments of death, and we decide to live such as to produce poverty, deprivation, and early death.

If religion is not the societal function to help us stop doing bad, what is? It is a sad religion indeed that says "stay the course, and I will help you to accept your self-induced suffering."

By "full circle," I meant that the paradigm may have begun happening, but is not by any stretch in full swing yet.

Okay, yes, but I now think we might be talking about different paradigms. But are we?

You sound a little dispensational to me, too.

I don't know what this means. Please help me understand.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but this model of taking steps toward becoming something more than we now are, in order to "attain" holiness, or righteousness, or Nirvana, or whatever, sounds a little like the experiment on the Plain of Shinar.

I think you are indeed misreading me. I never said that our effort to improve was in order to attain holiness, righteousness, or Nirvana. I said that our effort to improve was in order to have as much joy, contentment, and appreciation as possible and as little PSDED as possible. Can you think of a better reason to improve?

Christianity is plainly predicated upon grace and reconciliation -- God having made us acceptable, not upon our attaining anything.

Well, if this is indeed so (I'm not sure it is), then can Christianity improve? That's the main idea of this whole thread, I think. And BTW, I don't think even fundamentalists believe that God has made everyone acceptable the way they are.

I think that Jesus is far more concerned with our understanding our humanness than with our attaining divinity.

I don't know what attaining divinity is, but I don't believe I have ever thought that this was Jesus' main idea. I don't know how you are using "understanding," or even "humanness," but I do think that Jesus recommended to us that we figure out the best way to treat each other, and based upon that understanding, act accordingly.

So can you figure out what the most basic difference in our opinions is? (Also, have I said anything that really seems way out?)

Great talking with you.

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And there always will be a certain amount of unavoidable suffering. But where we begin to diverge seems to be with regard to preventing suffering (and pain, and disability, and early death {PSDED}).
Of course. But I don't think that Jesus wanted to prevent suffering, so much as he wanted to promote health. There's a big difference of impetus here.
could we not say that the effort to save ourselves and each other is an effort to avoid suffering, e.g., everlasting suffering in Hell because of having angered God?
That statement goes against the very grain of my theology. God has already made the decision to save us all.
If religion is not the societal function to help us stop doing bad, what is?
"Doing good" is not the point of religion. Doing God's will is the point of religion. Personally, I don't think God wants us to harm either ourselves or others. But the difference is that you appear to push the human act as the epitome of what we're after. Religion, rather, looks to God's acts.
I don't know what this means. Please help me understand.
The idea that humanity goes by certain steps on its journey toward the divine.
I think you are indeed misreading me. I never said that our effort to improve was in order to attain holiness, righteousness, or Nirvana. I said that our effort to improve was in order to have as much joy, contentment, and appreciation as possible and as little PSDED as possible. Can you think of a better reason to improve?
Yes I can. In order to be of greater service to God, whom we serve. Even the handicapped and the ill and the suffering can serve God, though, sometimes better than if they were "not suffering." Wholeness is not predicated upon the amount of suffering.
Well, if this is indeed so (I'm not sure it is), then can Christianity improve?
Only in how well we show forth God's love.
I don't think even fundamentalists believe that God has made everyone acceptable the way they are.
How sad!
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
Sojourner, I believe our differences of opinion are becoming more clear. We are getting subthreads and subsubthreads, so I will not quote or try to respond to everythng, but instead try to focus in on the basic differences. One of your paragraphs seems to be most clarifying and fundamental, namely:

"Doing good" is not the point of religion. Doing God's will is the point of religion. Personally, I don't think God wants us to harm either ourselves or others. But the difference is that you appear to push the human act as the epitome of what we're after. Religion, rather, looks to God's acts.

Okay, now you have indeed given an example of legitimization of ethical belief by the authoritarian-ethical ultimate ethical principle (We should do that which X wants us to, X being whoever or whatever is most powerful, e.g., parent, leader, group, culture, or deity {in this case diety}). Now as I point out elsewhere, this ethics does not lead to the good life for all of us, now and in the future, but instead often leads to much PSDED. Elsewhere I write:

The following are the main problems with authoritarian ethics:

. Different authors issue different, sometimes conflicting, rules.
. Intermediaries at times disagree as to what the author’s rules or wishes are.
. There may be disagreement or confusion about the author’s specific meaning of some rules.
. There may be disagreement as to which author to obey.
. Situations usually can be imagined in which to obey the author’s presumed wish would seem to be awful.
. The absence of the author weakens the motivation to adhere to the author’s wishes.
. There is no guidance about those things the author doesn’t care about.
. The fantasy of and hope for the author’s ultimate forgiveness weakens the motivation to adhere to the author’s wishes.
. When two individuals or groups have acquired different rules from different authors, they tend to avoid and fight each other.

Remember that in authoritarian ethics the ultimate criterion for legitimization of an ethical proposition is the demonstration that the proposition indeed models the motivational states and beliefs of the author. One can ask the author, if he or she is around. One can ask an intermediary, someone who we believe knows what the author wants or wanted. Or we can guess at what the author probably has in mind or had in mind. And if, after doing the above, we disagree, we can either agree to disagree (avoid each other or avoid talking with each other about it), or we can fight (emotionally, physically, or militarily).

And as an example of some of the above, you state, "Personally, I don't think God wants us to harm either ourselves or others." And I am glad that that is your personal opinion, but the problem is that there are many, many other people who feel quite convinced that God wants them to harm others, and even themselves. The daily news has examples.

So how do we legitimate your opinion, as opposed to these others? What makes you right rather than them? If there is no way of determining the answer, then I guess we have to live with the resulting PSDED.

What I am trying to do is point to an emerging answer to this dilemma. And we need an answer badly. Our ability to cause PSDED has gone up exponentially also. We are in deep trouble.

Now you say, "But the difference is that you appear to push the human act as the epitome of what we're after." But I never said such a thing, nor do I believe it. The epitome of what I am after is the survival of our species and the good life for everyone, now and in the future, and by good life I mean only as much joy, contentment, and appreciation (JCA) as possible and as little PSDED as possible.

So you are saying that you're not particularly interested in JCA, and you don't mind the PSDED, and that if you get the impression that God wants you to kill your neighbor, well then, so be it. (I know you are not saying that, but it seems that way from what you have said. This issue is so much what needs to be clarified. How can we get to the point where our religions do not produce PSDED? What do our religions need to become such that we are no longer afraid of them, or at least of the ones we are not members of.)

I believe that we are just beginning to move more in the direction I am advocating. And I "personally" think that historical Jesus would have been on my side. At least my mythical Jesus definitely is. (I realize your mythical Jesus may not be.)

Am I getting at the basic point of difference of opinion between the two of us? If so, do you believe that we can have a positive influence on each other? (You have helped me already.)

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The epitome of what I am after is the survival of our species and the good life for everyone, now and in the future, and by good life I mean only as much joy, contentment, and appreciation (JCA) as possible and as little PSDED as possible.
This is a humanistic approach, if the "epitome" of what you're after is all about humanity and does not point to God as the Impetus. The Biblical Jesus maintains that we can have an abundance of JCA in the midst of human suffering. Suffering does not = lack of wholeness.
So you are saying that you're not particularly interested in JCA, and you don't mind the PSDED, and that if you get the impression that God wants you to kill your neighbor, well then, so be it. (I know you are not saying that, but it seems that way from what you have said. This issue is so much what needs to be clarified. How can we get to the point where our religions do not produce PSDED? What do our religions need to become such that we are no longer afraid of them, or at least of the ones we are not members of.)
Not at all. I'm extremely interested in JCA (or, as I call it,"abundant life.") Abundant life includes JCA, but is not limited to that. Abundant life happens as we learn to live a life in God, with God as Impetus and Goal (Alpha and Omega). If we truly do that, then JCA happens. It isn't a matter of "eradicating suffering" and "promoting happiness." Those things are not ends in themselves, as you seem to feel.

We will come to the point where religions no longer create suffering when the religious realize that they are interpreting God's will through their own hermeneutical cloud. When we come to realize that we are not each other's enemy, that will go a long, long way.

What I am trying to do is point to an emerging answer to this dilemma. And we need an answer badly. Our ability to cause PSDED has gone up exponentially also. We are in deep trouble.
So is everyone else -- and have been for centuries...

 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
Sojourner,

The epitome of what I am after is the survival of our species and the good life for everyone, now and in the future, and by good life I mean only as much joy, contentment, and appreciation (JCA) as possible and as little PSDED as possible.

This is a humanistic approach, if the "epitome" of what you're after is all about humanity and does not point to God as the Impetus. The Biblical Jesus maintains that we can have an abundance of JCA in the midst of human suffering. Suffering does not = lack of wholeness.

Now see here you are introducing some new words and phrases without definitions, such as "impetus," "wholeness," "abundance," "all about," and "point to," words and phrases that certainly can have different meanings to different people in different contexts. There is nothing wrong with this as far as general conversation is concerned, but if we are trying to establish whether we agree or not, doing so makes that less clear. It may not be important to clarify whether we agree or disagree, depending upon what one is trying to accomplish, but my goal is specifically to accomplish an increased amount of agreement about some things that will really be of help to us. (Remember that I am not saying that I am correct, though I believe I am, but that what is helpful is the sharing and comparing of beliefs for the benefit of all concerned. The alternative can be tragic.)

But again it seems to me that you are saying that whether we cause pain, suffering, disability, and early death (PSDED) is less important than whether we obey what our impressions are of what God wants us to do. The problem with that is that there has never been agreement about what God wants us to do, and I do not see it as being likely that such agreement will be arrived at. It does not seem to me that there has been any significant tendency toward unanimity of belief regarding this, and the differences have been such as to cause enormous amounts of PSDED. There are in fact a fair number of people who do not believe that there is such a God, and a fair number of people that believe that God could care less about what we do, and still others that believe that God is not of the nature of something that can care about anything.

So you are saying that you're not particularly interested in JCA, and you don't mind the PSDED, and that if you get the impression that God wants you to kill your neighbor, well then, so be it. (I know you are not saying that, but it seems that way from what you have said. This issue is so much what needs to be clarified. How can we get to the point where our religions do not produce PSDED? What do our religions need to become such that we are no longer afraid of them, or at least of the ones we are not members of.)

Not at all. I'm extremely interested in JCA (or, as I call it,"abundant life.") Abundant life includes JCA, but is not limited to that. Abundant life happens as we learn to live a life in God, with God as Impetus and Goal (Alpha and Omega). If we truly do that, then JCA happens. It isn't a matter of "eradicating suffering" and "promoting happiness." Those things are not ends in themselves, as you seem to feel.

So you do want as much JCA as possible and as little PSDED as possible, you say, but you say that you want something else even more, and you say that you will give up these things (>JCA and <PSDED) for yourself, and perhaps make them less available to others, in order to accomplish this other thing that is more important to you (and that you believe should be more important to others), right?

But this other thing that is presumably more important is that "we learn to live a life in God, with God as Impetus and Goal (Alpha and Omega)." Now can you imagine that everyone will be able to agree on what that MEANS? Are we dependent upon everyone agreeing with what you have said and being able to agree on what the meaning of it is? Is our existence on this planet dependent upon such agreement? If it is, I fear that we are doomed.

But I don't believe we are doomed. I believe we have a chance. So what would be the consequence of our simply trying to do that which will give us all, now and in the future, as much JCA as possible and as little PSDED as possible? Would we cause God to be depressed? Would he/she feel slighted? Would he/she send the whole bunch of us to a place to burn for all eternity? Because God doesn't want us to live that way? Because living that way is irrelevant unless we do what you have recommended?

Can you not see how many people, I included, would feel at a dead end with your recommendation? My view is at least more optimistic, and I think more understandable. And it is fairly clear about what we should specifically do.

We will come to the point where religions no longer create suffering when the religious realize that they are interpreting God's will through their own hermeneutical cloud.

Okay, so who does not interpret God's will through his/her own hermeneutical cloud? Who really understands? Who has the right answer? I know you are saying that you do, but how can we tell?

When we come to realize that we are not each other's enemy, that will go a long, long way.

But we ARE each other's enemy. We are always doing bad things to each other, even killing each other. We have to STOP being each other's enemy. But that is probably what you mean. Let's say it is. Then I agree with you. But how are we to do that? I propose an answer (the anger prevention paradigm that is in the chapter on Rational-Ethical Anger Prevention), that consists of some ethical principles to follow when anger is present. (And we need a new model of child rearing, that doesn't fill our children so full of chronic anger, as I have outlined in another chapter.) Maybe my answers are not the best answers, but they appear to be quite useful to those that learn to use them. (And they are the best ones that I know of.) But my point is that, as opposed to my solutions, I am not sure what, according to your solution(s), we should DO. Perhaps you can clarify.

What I am trying to do is point to an emerging answer to this dilemma. And we need an answer badly. Our ability to cause PSDED has gone up exponentially also. We are in deep trouble.

So is everyone else -- and have been for centuries...

We have for a long time been our most feared predator. I am advocating that we change ourselves in very specific ways, ways that do not require thinking and communicating in very ambiguous words and phrases. We need to be simple, clear, and as precise as possible, if the effort is to be feasible and worthwhile. So my basic hope is that you will understand what I am saying, agree, and advocate in behalf of it, or, if you don't agree, that you will propose an alternative that we can all agree to (after acquiring adequate understanding).

Please let me understand more about your solution. Thanks.

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Angellous and Sojourner, where are you?

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com

I'm studying the epistemology of understanding in Gadamer's Truth and Method with some reading in Hegel, Heidegger, Dilthey, and Schleiermacher. Also, I'm taking a look at the anthropology of women in Greek philosophy from the pre-Socratics through the Stoics, with special emphasis in the Pythagoreans and Middle Stoics. Some work also in the church fathers.
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
I'm studying the epistemology of understanding in Gadamer's Truth and Method with some reading in Hegel, Heidegger, Dilthey, and Schleiermacher. Also, I'm taking a look at the anthropology of women in Greek philosophy from the pre-Socratics through the Stoics, with special emphasis in the Pythagoreans and Middle Stoics. Some work also in the church fathers.

You sound busy.

So according to Gadamer's epistemology, where does my thesis break down?

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
What is your goal in your effort to understand all that you are studying?

(My goal in my writing is to do what I can to prevent incredible amounts of pain, suffering, disability, and early death on the part of future generations.)

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
What is your goal in your effort to understand all that you are studying?

(My goal in my writing is to do what I can to prevent incredible amounts of pain, suffering, disability, and early death on the part of future generations.)

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com


First, to understand Gadamer. :D It's not terribly complex - it's actually so boring that I have to force myself to read it. He's useful because I think he understands many other philosophers who came before him, and I'm using him to introduce myself to them.

I'm analyzing him so I can form my own epistemology of method for my dissertation. This is like the first footnote of my chapter on my method.

You have a lofty goal to be sure! My goal is simply to understand the New Testament from a certain Greco-Roman philosophical model. It's not about preventing death, but hopefully it will enrich someone's life.
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
First, to understand Gadamer. :D It's not terribly complex - it's actually so boring that I have to force myself to read it. He's useful because I think he understands many other philosophers who came before him, and I'm using him to introduce myself to them.

I'm analyzing him so I can form my own epistemology of method for my dissertation. This is like the first footnote of my chapter on my method.

Ah, your dissertation! No wonder you're busy.

Actually, I have what I believe to be the most basic and best epistemology, in the book, pages 9-48. Of course the ideas are not mine, but instead a synthesis of what I consider to be the best that people have come up with. But I bet it would help some in what you are doing.

You have a lofty goal to be sure! My goal is simply to understand the New Testament from a certain Greco-Roman philosophical model. It's not about preventing death, but hopefully it will enrich someone's life.

But then the goal of your dissertation in some way is derivable from your basic ethical philosophy, right? Your degree will enable you to make your life into that which you believe will be a contribution to making the world a better place, right?

Do you have fairly specific plans as to what you will do with your degree?

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
But then the goal of your dissertation in some way is derivable from your basic ethical philosophy, right?

I dunno. We'll see, I suppose. I don't even know exactly what I will study yet. I am in the process of narrowing the scope of my study to something obscure enough to justify a dissertation - or as I call it - my sidertation.

Your degree will enable you to make your life into that which you believe will be a contribution to making the world a better place, right?

I am too jaded to think like this. ;)

Do you have fairly specific plans as to what you will do with your degree?

I'd like a university to pay me to do something well enough so I can travel to some overseas libraries to study. I'd love to spend a few years in the Vatican library, the British Museum, and the library at the University of Munich and Berlin.
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
I dunno. We'll see, I suppose. I don't even know exactly what I will study yet. I am in the process of narrowing the scope of my study to something obscure enough to justify a dissertation - or as I call it - my sidertation.

A shame you can't do one on Homo rationalis. What about "The Common Characteristics of Progressive Movements in the Religions"?

I am too jaded to think like this. ;)

There is always therapy and self help.

I'd like a university to pay me to do something well enough so I can travel to some overseas libraries to study. I'd love to spend a few years in the Vatican library, the British Museum, and the library at the University of Munich and Berlin.

Sounds really neat! And with a wife or girlfriend with the same interest! Evenings of dancing and socializing. Exploring the world. It will never happen for me, but I wish it for you.

Wish you had time to dialogue about my stuff. Maybe later.

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
A shame you can't do one on Homo rationalis. What about "The Common Characteristics of Progressive Movements in the Religions"?

I could, but then I wouldn't be a New Testament scholar. ;)

There is always therapy and self help.

See what I mean...


Sounds really neat! And with a wife or girlfriend with the same interest! Evenings of dancing and socializing. Exploring the world. It will never happen for me, but I wish it for you.

Ha. My wife is a high school geography teacher. She tries to force herself to humor me by listening to my research, but really the only interested folks are my colleagues.

Wish you had time to dialogue about my stuff. Maybe later.

Sure... like I said, I'll be around. Just too much to do right now. You really should poke around the forums a bit... I don't think you've posted anywhere but here.
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
Well, I finally completed a fairly comprehensive overview of what my effort has been, as follows:

At one time we lived more or less like chimpanzees. However, our species has undergone two exponential changes, making us drastically different from all other species, and also drastically different from the way we were before the changes took place. (By exponential I mean beginning imperceptibly, but gaining momentum and eventually accelerating markedly.)

The first exponential change was the development of the ability to use, essentially now to an infinite extent, symbols and the rules of syntax, giving us language and related phenomena. Consequently, we now have the capacity for highly intensive empathy (we can share with others our present and past experiences, feelings, wishes, fantasies, and plans in great detail) and highly effective cooperation (we can give highly detailed instructions, directions, and feedback). This new capability has been a tool in the service of our basic animal nature (everything we share with other species), so with it we do wonderful things, terrible things, and all in between.

The second exponential change was the development of the ability to use the rules of logic and the rules of evidence, giving us ultimately science and technology. Consequently, we now have the capability of developing extremely accurate models of the way the world really is (enabling us to do things that 200 years ago would have been considered magic). Again, this new tool has been in the service of our basic animal nature, so with it we are now able to protect and enhance our lives in amazing ways, but also able to distress, harm, and kill ourselves and each other, from one at a time to millions at a time.

Our basic animal nature is a product of natural selection, which has nothing to do with the quality of life. (Pain and suffering promote survival of the species the same as pleasure.) But because of the above two exponential changes, we are now able to study and understand ourselves and the world around us, and thereby able to change our behavior from that which comes naturally to that which works better, that is, promotes "the good life," by which I mean only a maximum of joy, contentment, and appreciation, and a minimum of pain, suffering, disability, and early death (PSDED).

But we have not yet, in any global way, begun to do this except to an almost imperceptible degree. So we are talking, hi tech (and extremely angry) "chimpanzees," frequently doing what comes naturally no matter how awful the consequences. And unless we bring about this third exponential change in ourselves, such that we stop doing these awful things, we are in danger of producing a globally catastrophic amount of PSDED, with perhaps even the demise of our species, at least as we know it. The situation is increasingly urgent.

Because we have never seen what it would be like to bring about this change in ourselves to the extent to which we are now increasingly capable, we regard as silly the idea of doing so. We believe that the PSDED we cause ourselves is almost inevitable, and therefore we do not look with seriousness upon what all of us could be doing, given adequate studying, understanding, agreement, cooperation, and motivation. And to some extent, some of us believe that the best we can do is just to inflict more PSDED on others than they do on ourselves. For example, punishment and revenge are a part of our basic animal nature, and we believe in and live by them, individually, culturally, and internationally, regarding them as essential even though they often, if not always, create even more PSDED.

So what will this predicted third exponential change be like, and what can we do to promote it? Because we have never seen such a way of life, it will be hard for us to take such a prediction seriously. Yet, we must do so if we are ever to achieve such a change, because it will only happen if we understand what is necessary to bring it about and act cooperatively to do so. And it is indeed possible to get some idea of what would be involved, as follows.

First, we will have to shift (much, much more) from our naturally occurring "authoritarian ethics" to our newly emerging "rational ethics." By "ethics" I mean only that set of beliefs that can be modeled with statements containing "should" ("I, you, we should do such-and-such"). The ethics that comes to us naturally, as a group animal, is based ultimately upon the "authoritarian-ethical ultimate ethical principle" that "we should do whatever X wants, X being whoever or whatever is most powerful (parent, leader, group, deity)." This ethics, though having contributed to the survival of our species, often also promotes incredible amounts of PSDED. We are, however, very early in an accelerating shift to what ultimately will be a commitment to an ethics based upon the "rational-ethical ultimate ethical principle" that "we should do that which will promote not only the survival of our species but also the good life (defined above) for everyone, now and in the future."

And we will also need to promote the development in ourselves and our children of a much stronger, more effective "ethical sense," the motivational state produced by an ethical belief ("I want to do it because I believe I should"), such development to be discussed further below.

To the extent that we achieve this shift in our ethics, there will be enormous, initially hard to imagine, changes in how we live our daily lives, globally. If and when this change occurs, the members of our species will look back upon us (the current state of Homo sapiens) like we regard Neanderthals or even chimpanzees. So we can metaphorically give our species of the future the name, "Homo rationalis."

Second, we never accomplish anything without some degree of agreement, about how the world is and about what we should and will do. There is not a single thing (other than exceedingly trivial) that we can have or do that does not require others having done their part. So we will need to achieve agreement, globally, on certain basic ideas that will allow for successful, important decision-making. Currently, the idea of there being such consensus is considered ridiculous, as endless debating without agreement is now a universal, and even valued, phenomenon. There of course will always be a certain amount of disagreement, but much disagreement is an illusion created by imprecise, metaphorical, ambiguous use of words. And such debates are characterized frequently by hostility, distorted logic, and disorganized changing of topic, in the service of winning rather than of building consensus. So we will need to develop, for the purpose of such discussions, more rigorous use of definitions and rules of logic, and we will need to agree on the optimal ways to respond to inability to agree, including especially the avoidance of hostility.

Third, however, in order to know what we should do, we will need to have beliefs about how the world works that are as accurate as possible, so that we will make as few mistakes as possible. Currently, having long ago given up on attaining Absolute Truth, we are engaging in our postmodern devaluation of agreement ("What's true for me may not be true for you, so let's just talk about something else"). Instead, we will need to value highly the achievement of ever-increasing accuracy of our beliefs, and therefore to value highly all those methods that foster that achievement. The rules of logic and the rules of evidence will therefore be much more highly valued, as will science and education, and friendly debate as the optimal response to any perceived difference of opinion. And we will also need to develop better access to relevant, accurate data, that can be distinguished from pseudoscience.

(Continued in next post)
 

Bill Van Fleet

Active Member
(Continued from previous post)

Fourth
, there will be a global awareness of an agreed upon anger-prevention paradigm, either the one I teach or one even better, because anger is our most problematic motivational state. Rather than our continuing to value anger, punishment, revenge, and skillful induction of PSDED ("fighting"), we will recognize anger as our most problematic motivational state and hostility as our most deleterious behavior. We will have a well-understood systematic approach to external anger-prevention (methods of changing a situation that is producing anger) and internal anger-prevention (methods of reducing anger being produced by a possibly unalterable situation). Of extreme importance will be the reversal of impending relationship breakdown, interpersonal to international.

Fifth
, there will be a globally agreed upon model of child rearing, either the one I teach or one even better, that any parent will have been adequately trained in prior to assuming independent parenting responsibility. And this model of child rearing will be taught to all children (as a continuous part of their general education) for whom there is any possibility of eventually becoming a parent. The model will be based upon principles involving a marked diminution (and effort to avoid completely) the punishing of children for making mistakes. This avoidance of punishment will be because of the recognition of its production of low self-esteem, demoralization, anxiety, and anger that is often manifested by cruelty, destructiveness, and rebellion (overt defiance, passive-aggression, and/or sneakiness), all of which undermine the development of a strong ethical sense. The model will also be based on principles involving much more effective methods of rewarding, teaching, and modeling for identification, that will foster, not blind obedience, but wisdom, capacity for ethical reasoning, and the development of a basic ethical philosophy, accompanied by a strong ethical sense, that promotes the development of the child into a competent, healthy, productive, and confident adult capable of contributing reliably to the welfare of society.

Sixth,
there will be universal awareness of general principles of belief management, beliefs being the most important modifiable determinant of decision-making, or behavior, as well as of pleasant and unpleasant motivational states, which in turn affect the individual's health and quality of life in general. Not only will accuracy of belief be valued and promoted, but also the specific individual and societal methods of acquiring such accuracy of belief. Education, mental hygiene, friendly debate, openness of mind, and accuracy of communication will all be considered essential for the good life. In addition, the management of belief-like states, not for the purpose of decision-making but instead for the purpose of comfort, stress management, and optimal emotional functioning, will be much better understood and practiced.

Seventh
, there will be, I predict, world government based upon a hierarchical structure of small groups, each one representative of those below, such that everyone will have a place in decision-making at the appropriate level. Thus, each representative sent from a group to a higher level group will be chosen to do so by those that know the individual best. And there will be mechanisms and procedures that assure that all decision-making is open to scrutiny, just as all knowledge, opinions, and debates will be available to all. And although undoubtedly there will always be individuals that need varying degrees of supervision, this will be accompanied by a thoroughly non-punitive, understanding approach to such individuals, that aids those individuals in maximally working toward their potential for good. Government will be appreciated as the source and method of optimal large group decision-making, rather than regarded as a clandestine, non-responsive, self-serving organization at odds with the welfare of the individual.

Eighth
, their religion(s) will, I predict, have the primary function of helping them to arrive at the optimal way of living life (promoting personal ethical beliefs that are consistent with the rational-ethical ultimate ethical principle, defined above), having turned over to science the function of attaining the most accurate set of existential beliefs (about the way the world is, was, or will be). Each individual will be encouraged to develop his or her own basic ethical philosophy, dependent upon ethical principles and the person's idiosyncratic life situation and personal characteristics. And there will be an awareness of the importance of the integration of science and religion, one without the other being indeed dangerous. And the religion(s) will supplement and augment a basic social support system for all that are in need of such. The religions, I predict, will optimize from within themselves, gradually putting to rest their less desirable and outmoded ideas, and gradually adding ideas more consistent with the rational-ethical ultimate ethical principle (defined above).

I feel committed to doing all I can to promote this third exponential change. I have had such a wonderful life because of the efforts of countless individuals all throughout the history of our species who have tried to make the world a better place within their sphere of influence and within the limits of their capabilities. I wish similarly to give back to my species whatever I can in order to continue this effort, out of gratitude and appreciation for all my species has done for me. I look to you, the reader, if you believe that I have identified a possible way of helping us to have a much better life in the future, to join me in this effort, by further studying these ideas, debating them with others, and, if they still seem correct, advocating for them. As more and more do so, this third exponential change, that I believe has already begun to accelerate noticeably, will progress even faster. And each individual who participates in this effort should not only see a significant improvement in his or her own life and in the lives of those within his or her sphere of influence, but he or she should also be able to feel good about what he or she is doing for many, many people in the future. I believe there can be no greater satisfaction regarding the expenditure of one’s life.

Bill Van Fleet
HomoRationalis.com
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Bill,

I'd say you're a wild-eyed optimist and your predictions are loosely (a superlative understatement) related to the entire human experience from known history to today. Perhaps comparing it (the future you see) to how humanity once lived as chimpanzees and changed to a civilized community is appropriate in this respect. How far in the future is your utopia?... will we be zipping around starships at warp speed (etc)?
 
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