Jesus and taxes

[fallingblood]

Since this keeps popping up in nearly every discussion regarding Jesus, I thought I would make a thread and hopefully keep the discussion contained here instead of it attaching itself to so many other threads.

Here is the basic claim:

false he does not


the only way you can state that is to twist out of context, "render unto Caesar"

which he was being questioned and if answered wrong could have been arrested and killed right then. he played the middle of the road. OH WAIT who wrote that??? ah yes roman jewish authors writing to a roman audience. maybe the same writers who made Pilate look like a decent man LOL EPIC FAIL

the fact they are questioning him shows they want to know why he doest pay taxes.

through the NT jesus is portrayed as going after all the tax collectors to preach to these low life sinners to heal them. he even gets zacc to give back much of his tax earnings which is perverting the nation.

even Luke states he was arrested for not paying taxes.

he was question shortly before his death about why he didnt pay his taxes.

So, to sum up, the idea is that Jesus was against paying taxes, possibly didn't pay his taxes, and his death had something to do with taxes.

Now how accurate is that? I would say not really.

Jesus is accredited with saying give to Caesar what is Caesar, and to God what is Gods. The statement is a little ambiguous, but it is not anti-tax. In the life time of Jesus, there were those who were much more hateful towards taxation. Jesus, in comparison, is very tame. And it certainly does suggest that one should pay to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Now it is true that in Luke, one of the charges levied against Jesus was to do with taxes. However, as with most charges, it is clearly meant to just trump up the charges. Especially considering that in the next sentence, Pilate ignores the charge to do with taxes, and deals with the claim of being king. So obviously, the trial, or charges in the end had nothing to do with taxes, as they are simply ignored.

As for Jesus and tax collectors, Jesus is friends with them. He doesn't call them low life sinners, or even degrades them. Yes, they are called sinners, but most people are. He doesn't prevent them from doing their work, or suggest that they should stop. Jesus being friends with tax collectors really suggests that he wasn't all out against taxation, and that it wasn't part of his overall picture.

Finally, Jesus isn't asked if he paid taxes. One of the disciples of Jesus are asked if Jesus pays taxes. The disciple says yes, Jesus does. So it wasn't a question as to why Jesus didn't pay taxes, but if he did, where the answer was yes, he pays them.


As with any Jew in Palestine during this time, Jesus would have felt the burden of Roman taxation. However, comparatively, Jesus is very tame when it comes to the subject of taxation. He says to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, he's friends with tax collectors, and pays taxes himself. He may have had some people claim he didn't pay taxes or the like, but in the end, such claims are just brushed aside.

 

[outhouse]

and his death had something to do with taxes.

Money is the key theme here, not taxes.

but we do have this

"They began to accuse him, saying, "We found this man perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king." - Luke 23:2

 

[outhouse]

I like this as well

"What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings on the earth collect tolls or tributes? From their own subjects, or from foreigners?" When he said, "From foreigners," Jesus said to him, "In that case, the subjects are exempt." -Matthew 17:25-27

• "Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?" - Matthew 17:25-27 (NLT)
• "their own children, or of strangers?" (KJB)
• "Therefore the children are exempt" (WEB)
• "Really, then, the sons are tax-free" (NWT)

 

[idea]

if you associate taxes with being in bondage, or not being free, there are a lot of scriptures about Christ making us free - taking the yoke off our backs, etc. etc.

(New Testament | Galatians 3:28)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

if taxation were an unjust burden that placed subjects into bondage, I think Jesus would be against them. Perhaps he would be indifferent to small taxes though as he was not materialistic, and did not really worry that much about money.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Since this keeps popping up in nearly every discussion regarding Jesus ...

Nonsense. Show me an example other than the silly 'claim' below.

Speaking of which ...

Here is the basic claim:.

At this point ...

the fact they are questioning him shows they want to know why he doest pay taxes.

... it devolves from claim to quackery. Why waste time on it?

 

[Pragmatist]

I certainly agree that Jesus, according the Gospels, is pro-tax. However, the question remains if this was a teaching that can be attributed to the real, historical Jesus. Perhaps it was an invention of the Gospel-authors.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Money is the key theme here, not taxes.

but we do have this

"They began to accuse him, saying, "We found this man perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king." - Luke 23:2

:clap...Unless we're going to start treating Luke like we what was done to Acts in that other thread.....

 

[outhouse]

I certainly agree that Jesus, according the Gospels, is pro-tax. However, the question remains if this was a teaching that can be attributed to the real, historical Jesus. Perhaps it was an invention of the Gospel-authors.

how is he pro-tax.?

he was a starving peasant, who would have hated the roman oppression and over taxation. He is said to have had a zealot as a apostle as well.

he would have also hated the roman infection the the temple and the jewish government that were stealing from the people in the form of tithes.

 

[Pragmatist]

how is he pro-tax.?

Only according to the Gospels, and to Christian teaching. The real life Jesus is a different story. But, it is difficult to dispute, that under the influence of Paul's ideology, Jesus was imagined to be pro-tax and accommodating to Roman power. It is unlikely the real Jesus would have held to such collaborationist ideas. But he was imagined to hold such ideas, according to the Gospel-writers.

 

[outhouse]

Only according to the Gospels, and to Christian teaching. The real life Jesus is a different story. But, it is difficult to dispute, that under the influence of Paul's ideology, Jesus was imagined to be pro-tax and accommodating to Roman power. It is unlikely the real Jesus would have held to such collaborationist ideas. But he was imagined to hold such ideas, according to the Gospel-writers.

I understand your point now. It comcern's biblical jesus more so then historical jesus.

Paul never knew anything about the real jesus and I find his version to be more mythical then anything else.

 

[Pragmatist]

Paul never knew anything about the real jesus and I find his version to be more mythical then anything else.

This judgment can be extended to the Gospel-authors also: their works are largely mythical and polemic. In a word, complete distortions. It is extremely difficult to sift out true facts about the real Jesus from the great mass of polemical deception. That a popular messianic leader like Jesus would have preached accommodation to Rome, as portrayed in the Gospels, is hard to believe.

 

[fallingblood]

:clap...Unless we're going to start treating Luke like we what was done to Acts in that other thread.....

Or if we treat the statement in context. The next sentence shows that Pilate dismissed the idea that Jesus forbid people to pay taxes. It has nothing to do with what Pilate saw him guilty of.

Not to mention, there is never a suggestion in the Gospels or elsewhere that suggests Jesus forbid people from paying taxes. Instead, Jesus says the opposite, and we are informed that he pays taxes himself. Not to mention, no other Gospel mentions such a charge.

I do find it curious that Outhouse continues to mention such a verse though when he is very vocal on how the trial has no actual historicity, yet in this case he makes an exception.

 

[outhouse]

This judgment can be extended to the Gospel-authors also: their works are largely mythical and polemic. In a word, complete distortions. It is extremely difficult to sift out true facts about the real Jesus from the great mass of polemical deception. That a popular messianic leader like Jesus would have preached accommodation to Rome, as portrayed in the Gospels, is hard to believe.

ah yes the jewish roman authors writing to a roman audience.


the NT is loaded with tax information, and much was left out because they looked at this as common knowledge.

So what we do see does carry some importance

 

[outhouse]

Or if we treat the statement in context. The next sentence shows that Pilate dismissed the idea that Jesus forbid people to pay taxes. It has nothing to do with what Pilate saw him guilty of.

Not to mention, there is never a suggestion in the Gospels or elsewhere that suggests Jesus forbid people from paying taxes. Instead, Jesus says the opposite, and we are informed that he pays taxes himself. Not to mention, no other Gospel mentions such a charge.

I do find it curious that Outhouse continues to mention such a verse though when he is very vocal on how the trial has no actual historicity, yet in this case he makes an exception.

your right there may have been no trial at all and probably never with Pilate in attendance.

But the authors decided that it was important enough to write that he didnt pay his taxes

 

[fallingblood]

Nonsense. Show me an example other than the silly 'claim' below.

Speaking of which ...

It is only Outhouse who seems to be plaguing every topic concerning Jesus with this, as you put it, quackery. But it does appear in pretty much every thread concerning Jesus.

By giving it a separate thread, I'm hoping he will refrain from spamming this stuff in every other thread.

At this point ...

​

... it devolves from claim to quackery. Why waste time on it?

Because there are many people on the forum, who check the forums, who don't know better. Either they are new to the subject, or they just haven't done enough research. Since these claims are in nearly all the new threads regarding Jesus, it is something I'm sure many people end up seeing.

 

[fallingblood]

your right there may have been no trial at all and probably never with Pilate in attendance.

But the authors decided that it was important enough to write that he didnt pay his taxes

The authors never wrote any such thing. Instead, it is stated that he in fact paid his taxes. Making things up does not help your case.

Again, you are hardly working in the mainstream of scholarship.

ah yes the jewish roman authors writing to a roman audience.


the NT is loaded with tax information, and much was left out because they looked at this as common knowledge.

So what we do see does carry some importance

First, you have never shown they were writing to a Roman audience, unless you use the term Roman very vaguely, and then it is meaningless. I made a thread just on this subject, and you failed to make a rebuttal.

And there isn't much information about taxes in the NT. There is actually very little. You simply think there is a lot because you want there to be.

 

[outhouse]

And there isn't much information about taxes in the NT. There is actually very little. You simply think there is a lot because you want there to be.

false again.

theres plenty on taxes and money.


but the fact is jews were oppressed by romans and over taxed. You woke up overtaxed, your belly rumbled from hunger because you were over taxed.

disease and poverty and death reigned under this roman taxation in Galilee during the first century. Everyone lived it, NO! every JEW lived it, while roman citizens were exempt.

It was part of every jews life to the point they committed suicide by the thousands fighting romans.

Here is where you fail epically, there was a tax war while jesus was a child in which thousands of jews in Galilee who knew they would die! and or be put into slavery! fought the roman army anyway! because death was better then the misery the romans kept the jews in.

you must think oppression is a cute little word, make me sick how you underestimate the the plight of these inoccent people.

Then shortly after jesus dies ANOTHER tax was breaks out in which gods very house fall's to the roman army!!!! how many people were butchered??? HOW MANY! due to taxes alone.


You have no idea of the feeling's of the people who lived at that time, and its why your imitation arm chair scholarship is so weak.

I hope you correct your mistakes

 

[fallingblood]

Outhouse- When you start making this very personal, it becomes apparent you don't really have a leg to stand on. When you start talking about things we are not actually talking about, it becomes even more apparent you can't hold your ground.

I could offer a rebuttal, but when you start using logical fallacies (see your first reply to me) then it becomes useless. If you want a real conversation, I will. But if you want to act like a child and insult my intelligence and other people, you can do that by yourself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is only Outhouse who seems to be plaguing every topic ...

And it's only you who seem addicted to feeding him. I'm beginning to get the feeling that you need each other. Why might that be?

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse- When you start making this very personal, it becomes apparent you don't really have a leg to stand on. When you start talking about things we are not actually talking about, it becomes even more apparent you can't hold your ground.

I could offer a rebuttal, but when you start using logical fallacies (see your first reply to me) then it becomes useless. If you want a real conversation, I will. But if you want to act like a child and insult my intelligence and other people, you can do that by yourself.

Man!!! that was some good drama you need to lighten up


When I see shcolars talking on this subject and I repeat them, well that ones thing. But your not fighting me, your fighting the newer views emerging in scholarships.

First and formost, cultural and physical anthropology is the keystone here to understanding what little we know about a historical jesus. without understanding his enviroment, you will never understand a quarter of the real man