Jesus and taxes

[fallingblood]

Yeah, I get it. I suppose some of us are just a little bit annoyed with the unsubstantiated assertians regarding NT persons. I'm not saying that you do this however these threads tend to contain what seems like more speculation than research.

I can see that. And I will be taking the comments from you and Jay more seriously, as in, I'm just putting certain individuals on my ignore list, instead of feeding into the "noise pollution." I've done it before, but I am adamant this time on sticking with it. And if I slip up, I'm just going to take a break from the forum.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, or admitting there are others who are much better informed than I.

You wouldn't admit you were wrong when I told you that the Sabbath is distinct from the Lord's Day despite the evidence given.

And you still won't.

I mean even the Pope says that Sabbath is on Saturday.

You let your ego get in the way, that's why you have been feuding nonsense with outhouse for so long. I take more issue with him saying Jesus hated people than with him saying Jesus refused to pay taxes.

 

[Desert Snake]

@

You never answered my question of how reliable you consider Josephus to be in terms of historicity.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

@

You never answered my question of how reliable you consider Josephus to be in terms of historicity.

Because the question is nonsense.

 

[Desert Snake]

Because the question is nonsense.

No, it's not. You used Josephus as a historical reference, and in turn I asked you how reliable you consider Josephus to be in terms of historicity.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

No, it's not. You used Josephus as a historical reference, and in turn I asked you how reliable you consider Josephus to be in terms of historicity.

The question is nonsense because the reliability depends on how close Josephus is to the events he describes. So when Josephus describes Masada he is very reliable but when he talks about the Exodus and Moses he is not.

Common sense.

Why don't you just go read some Josephus.

 

[fallingblood]

You wouldn't admit you were wrong when I told you that the Sabbath is distinct from the Lord's Day despite the evidence given.

And you still won't.

I mean even the Pope says that Sabbath is on Saturday.

You let your ego get in the way, that's why you have been feuding nonsense with outhouse for so long. I take more issue with him saying Jesus hated people than with him saying Jesus refused to pay taxes.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2889069-post38.html Simply, you're wrong here. I in fact ceded my position on the subject.

Oh, and here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2889068-post37.html I admit that I was wrong, at least in part.

 

[fallingblood]

The question is nonsense because the reliability depends on how close Josephus is to the events he describes. So when Josephus describes Masada he is very reliable but when he talks about the Exodus and Moses he is not.

Common sense.

Why don't you just go read some Josephus.

What would reading Josephus help in this case? It doesn't tell us how reliable he is, unless one has a pretty good grasp on the history that Josephus is writing about. And really, that can be a massive exploration.

Reading Josephus can also lead a reader, who has some knowledge of the history he is writing about, can come to the conclusion that Josephus simply is a poor source. He does make a number of mistakes. He probably makes somethings up, and at the very least, he exaggerates various ideas. If that is all one can pull out (or if that is what they initially see), then the conclusion will most likely be that Josephus is not historically reliable.

The question isn't nonsense. I think it is a very legitimate question, and I would have to say that your response, and avoidance of actually answering the question has been nonsense, and really adds nothing.



To answer Disciple's question, Josephus can be historically reliable. However, as with nearly any source, one has to be observant of the biases. Josephus does have them. Personally, if I was going to learn about the time period he covers, I would only use him as a secondary source, the primary source being a modern one that combines a variety of fields into the research. But again, Josephus can give us some pretty good insight, and he does have a nice level of historical reliability, especially regarding the events he is closer to (1st century events).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

heres a little on render unto Caesar


The passage has been much discussed in the modern context of Christianity and politics, especially on the questions of separation of church and state and tax resistance.

Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tax resistance in Judaea
Main articles: Tax resistance and Zealotry
The taxes imposed on Judaea by Rome had led to riots.[6] New Testament scholar Willard Swartley writes:

The tax denoted in the text was a specific tax… It was a poll tax, a tax instituted in A.D. 6. A census taken at that time (cf. Lk. 2:2) to determine the resources of the Jews provoked the wrath of the country. Judas of Galilee led a revolt (Acts 5:37), which was suppressed only with some difficulty. Many scholars date the origin of the Zealot party and movement to this incident.[7]
​

The Jewish Encyclopedia says, of the Zealots:

When, in the year 5, Judas of Gamala in Galilee started his organized opposition to Rome, he was joined by one of the leaders of the Pharisees, R. Zadok, a disciple of Shammai and one of the fiery patriots and popular heroes who lived to witness the tragic end of Jerusalem… The taking of the census by Quirinus, the Roman procurator, for the purpose of taxation was regarded as a sign of Roman enslavement; and the Zealots' call for stubborn resistance to the oppressor was responded to enthusiastically.
​

At his trial before Pontius Pilate, Jesus was accused of promoting resistance to Caesar's tax.

Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ/Messiah, a king." (Luke 23:1-4)



Jesus was asked the question about paying taxes in hope that he would answer "yes" or "no". Answering "yes" would have left him open to the accusation that he was in opposition to Jewish resistance to the Roman occupation and therefore (given the assumption by the Jews that they still held privileged nation status with God at this time) against God, too. Answering "no" would have given those present an opportunity to report him to the Roman authorities as someone who was trying to incite a revolt. His questioners had assumed that there was an inevitable (and hazardous) dichotomy between discharging one's obligations to the state and discharging one's obligations to God, but Jesus refused to confront the dichotomy as framed by his hostile questioners and instead pointed to the assumptions behind it.
The episode illustrates Jesus' skill in holding his ground in doctrinal debates and rhetorics against the orthodox Jewish scholars of the time.



yet someone in this forum wants to argue the opposite
​

:clap

 

[outhouse]

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, or admitting there are others who are much better informed than I.

well thats not true

you apply your own historicity in places its not due.


its best not to tuck tail and run if your found wrong, the best thing to do is get out there join other forums and gain more knowledge.




you should learn most all scholars fight amongst each other. they dont quit in high sea's though or mention it, or play games and put others on ignore. J is a bad example

 

[outhouse]

You wouldn't admit you were wrong when I told you that the Sabbath is distinct from the Lord's Day despite the evidence given.

And you still won't.

I mean even the Pope says that Sabbath is on Saturday.

You let your ego get in the way, that's why you have been feuding nonsense with outhouse for so long. I take more issue with him saying Jesus hated people than with him saying Jesus refused to pay taxes.

jesus was a mortal man, and he had human feelings. hate is one of them.

Romans kept the jews in such a horrible state of living condition it would a normal emotion from a poor oppressed peasant, who is said to have shown violence in gods very own house

 

[outhouse]

Plenty of anti tax material.


I really dont know how much of a zealot paul was, but his letter have been compiled and worked over pretty good

Zealotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zealotry was described by Josephus as one of the "four sects" at this time.


A Simon who is referred to as "the Zealot" is found among the disciples of Jesus


by Mark R. Fairchild suggests that Paul the Apostle may have been a Zealot, which might have been the driving force behind his persecution of the Christians (see stoning of Saint Stephen) before his conversion to Christianity, and his incident at Antioch even after his conversion.

 

[outhouse]

now here is a import fact, we have zealots who are based in Galilee!! who hate the roman infected temple, and then we have jesus causing a riot in the temple calling them thieves

Both jesus and the zealots were opposed to the way the priest were running the temple

We have a connection by jesus action alone, and we have a connection where jesus lived.


Zealotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to historian H.H. Ben-Sasson, the Sicarii, originally based in Galilee, "were fighting for a social revolution, while the Jerusalem Zealots placed less stress on the social aspect" and the Sicarii "never attached themselves to one particular family and never proclaimed any of their leaders king". Both groups objected to the way the priestly families were running the Temple

 

[outhouse]

Holy moly

heres more

Sicarii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judas Iscariot

In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to – in this case to the sicarii

you know the zealots who fought against roman taxation

 

[outhouse]

Why was money so popular to a poverty stricken teacher???

• Jesus talked about money more than He did Heaven and Hell combined.
• Jesus talked about money more than anything else except the Kingdom of God.
• 11 of 39 parables talk about money.
• 1 of every 7 verses in the Gospel of Luke talk about money.

Read more: How many times did Jesus talk about money​