Jesus And The Law

[Ben Masada]

[/i]

Without the Holy Spirit of Jesus men is nothing but a filphy sinner.

The love character fulfils the law BEN therefore it surpasses the law, God is love.

Yes BEN you are right, if you love your neighbour you have a love relationship with God.

Yes it is impossible to love your neighbour if you have not received the Holy Spirit, for only the Spirit of God can make you love like He does.
We read in Luke 6:32-35, "And if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? for even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemy, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and you reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

To love your neighbour as yoursef like God does, is to do more than fulfilling the law.

Yes BEN the religious people of this world needs the law to maintain a degree of civilization, the children of God do more: they live by His character.

The SON of God is the exact representation of God, and the true Christians are individual menbers of His body the church.

You haven't given me one single answers to my comments from the post above. #220.

 

[free spirit]

You haven't given me one single answers to my comments from the post above. #220.

Because, you do not believe in Jesus, but you quote him very often in your posts, why is that?

If you know and agree that God is love you should also agree that those who practice the character of love are fulfilling the law as Jesus did.

 

[heuristic]

Christ's sacrifice paid this penalty of the second death in full, but as He said, "think not, that I have come to destroy the Law...but to fulfill the Law."

Which is the prophecies of the Messiah in the books of the Law [Moses] regarding His role as Messiah in human form.

Also meaning He came to add to it but take away the sacrificial penalties the Israelites paid, either with their lives through death, or with sin offerings we today would refer to these as fnes or depts].

He made the law full by adding the Spiritual aspect of the Law which is love towards others. He taught this through explaining the cause of thought in listing a few of the laws we identify as the Ten Commandments.

To even think of breaking those laws in reality is breaking the spiritual aspect of God's holy commandments to love Him first and each other second, on whiich all the Laws, Psalm and Prophets hang.

 

[heuristic]

Agrees with the person above me.

sorry i am new to this forum, and having a little difficulty reading the words on my pc screen.

 

[Ben Masada]

Because, you do not believe in Jesus, but you quote him very often in your posts, why is that?

If you know and agree that God is love you should also agree that those who practice the character of love are fulfilling the law as Jesus did.

You don't know what Jesus did because, it seems to me, your NT in Matthew 5 has only verse 17. Why don't you keep reading a little further into verse 19? The word "fulfilled" becomes understood as confirmed as Jesus said that whoever breaks any of the commandments of the Law, won't be worthy the Kingdom of Heaven. It means that the fulfilling of the Law was not restricted to him but a thing of every single Jew. Then, we have Luke 16:29-31 where he says that the best way to escape Hell is to listen to Moses, which means the Law.

 

[Ben Masada]

Christ's sacrifice paid this penalty of the second death in full, but as He said, "think not, that I have come to destroy the Law...but to fulfill the Law."

Which is the prophecies of the Messiah in the books of the Law [Moses] regarding His role as Messiah in human form.

Also meaning He came to add to it but take away the sacrificial penalties the Israelites paid, either with their lives through death, or with sin offerings we today would refer to these as fnes or depts].

He made the law full by adding the Spiritual aspect of the Law which is love towards others. He taught this through explaining the cause of thought in listing a few of the laws we identify as the Ten Commandments.

To even think of breaking those laws in reality is breaking the spiritual aspect of God's holy commandments to love Him first and each other second, on whiich all the Laws, Psalm and Prophets hang.

You have started well, because your post above is only a promotion of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Ben Masada]

Agrees with the person above me.

sorry i am new to this forum, and having a little difficulty reading the words on my pc screen.

That's why you are having a little difficulty reading the words on your pc screen. The prompt agreement with the person above you.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus and the Law

This is one of Jesus' secret teachings, not because Jesus meant it to be a secret, but because Christians find it so hard to understand that it is taken as a secret. It is in the parable of the Richman and Lazarus.

Since you can read the whole parable in Luke 16:19-31, I am cutting short this thread by going straighht to the bottom line: Verses 29-31. Somehow, the Richman must not have been a good man, because his afterlife was to be spent in Hell. Lazarus, who was a beggar, and a good man in his ways, also happened to die and spend his afterlife in Heaven. As the text say, in the bosom of Abraham.

It happens that the Richman in Hell lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said: "Oh father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to my father's house, because I have five brethrens and Lazarus could testify to them, so that they would not fall in this place of torment."

The answer to the Richman in Hell put in the mouth of Abraham by Jesus was: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." And the Richman insisted, "Ney, father Abraham, but if one went to them from the dead, they wouldl repent." And Abraham (Jesus) said to him: "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither they will be persuaded even if one rose from the dead."

IMHO, that was a prophecy of Jesus' in the form of a parable which has been fulfilled by Christians in general. They do believe that Jesus rose from the dead; nevertheless, they just can't be persuaded to listen to Moses and the Prophets, which means the Law, in order to prevent themselves from falling in Hell. They prefer the Pauline policy of salvation by faith only.
Ben

Since Xy is a pan-cultural religion, that is, it tends to use the culture in which it is found, rather than usurp the culture in which it is found, it does not behoove Greek Gentiles (to whom Luke writes) to follow the Mosaic Law as a means to salvation, as it did the Hebrew converts. Therefore, the answer must lie somewhere within the Greek Gentile culture, as this story points out. The story isn't a prophecy about "people not conforming to Mosaic Law," it's a parable outlining how the faith is transmitted in that particular culture: Neither through religious Law, nor through the rising of a dead person, but through the actions of the living, believing community.

 

[free spirit]

You don't know what Jesus did because, it seems to me, your NT in Matthew 5 has only verse 17. Why don't you keep reading a little further into verse 19? The word "fulfilled" becomes understood as confirmed as Jesus said that whoever breaks any of the commandments of the Law, won't be worthy the Kingdom of Heaven. It means that the fulfilling of the Law was not restricted to him but a thing of every single Jew. Then, we have Luke 16:29-31 where he says that the best way to escape Hell is to listen to Moses, which means the Law.

Yes Ben You are correct the religious believer has to obey the law, but the children of God have to do more than obey the law for we read in Matthew 22:35-40, "And one of them, a LAWYER, asked Him a question, testing Him, 'Teacher, which is the great commandment in the LAW?' and He said to him, ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, this is the great and FOREMOST commandment. The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these TWO commandments depend the whale LAW and the Prophets."

You just do not get it Ben, let me make it simple for you; You can be the King's subject by obeying the laws of his kingdom, knowing that the Lord will be merciful towards your failings, or you can be part of his family in a loving relationship with Him, it is that simple

The parable of the rich man in Luke 16:19-35, explains that the rich man has not obeyed the law therefore he was an unbeliever; and if his brothers did not believe and obey the law of Moses they will neither be able to believe in the resurrected Christ,
which makes me think that you are in the same situation, you actively promoting the law but you do not keep it, that is the reason you can not believe in Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

Since Xy is a pan-cultural religion, that is, it tends to use the culture in which it is found, rather than usurp the culture in which it is found, it does not behoove Greek Gentiles (to whom Luke writes) to follow the Mosaic Law as a means to salvation, as it did the Hebrew converts. Therefore, the answer must lie somewhere within the Greek Gentile culture, as this story points out. The story isn't a prophecy about "people not conforming to Mosaic Law," it's a parable outlining how the faith is transmitted in that particular culture: Neither through religious Law, nor through the rising of a dead person, but through the actions of the living, believing community.

Jesus could not be more clear. When he said to listen to Moses in order not to fall in the same Hell of the richman, he mean to say that the Law was not abolished but it was still to be observed by all the People of Israel. But then, Paul came, about 30 years later after Jesus had been gone and said that the Law was abolished on the cross, as if Jesus was either lying or didn't know what he was talking about. (Ephe. 2:15)

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes Ben You are correct the religious believer has to obey the law, but the children of God have to do more than obey the law for we read in Matthew 22:35-40, "And one of them, a LAWYER, asked Him a question, testing Him, 'Teacher, which is the great commandment in the LAW?' and He said to him, ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, this is the great and FOREMOST commandment. The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these TWO commandments depend the whale LAW and the Prophets."

You just do not get it Ben, let me make it simple for you; You can be the King's subject by obeying the laws of his kingdom, knowing that the Lord will be merciful towards your failings, or you can be part of his family in a loving relationship with Him, it is that simple

The parable of the rich man in Luke 16:19-35, explains that the rich man has not obeyed the law therefore he was an unbeliever; and if his brothers did not believe and obey the law of Moses they will neither be able to believe in the resurrected Christ,
which makes me think that you are in the same situation, you actively promoting the law but you do not keep it, that is the reason you can not believe in Jesus.

No, you are simply misinterpreting the text. The Richman said that if one from the dead went to his family, they would believe and not fall in his same miserable place.
Then, Jesus, through Abraham, answered and said that even if one resurrected from the dead they would not be persuaded to listen to Moses. I am sure you believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead. His prophetic parable has been fulfilled because you can't be persuaded to listen to Moses, which is the same as God's Law. Got it now? That's as simple as that.

 

[free spirit]

No, you are simply misinterpreting the text. The Richman said that if one from the dead went to his family, they would believe and not fall in his same miserable place.
Then, Jesus, through Abraham, answered and said that even if one resurrected from the dead they would not be persuaded to listen to Moses.

Yes if you do not obey Moses' law Christ or a resurrected person is of no benefit to you. To be in Christ you need to have the foundation of the law, for how can you move closer to God if you are a willful law breaker. A true Christian should not be a hypocrite.

I am sure you believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead. His prophetic parable has been fulfilled because you can't be persuaded to listen to Moses, which is the same as God's Law. Got it now? That's as simple as that.

I do not simply believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead, By His grace He gave me the witness that He has indeed resurrected from the dead, before that I did try with no much success to obey the law. But when He knocked at the door of my heart I said to Him "I received you this morning" For I had partaken of the Eucharist that morning and with that faithful confession He blessed me with His presence and give me to understand the New Testament.
Ben, we are like the railway tracks for they are going to the same place but never meet.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus could not be more clear. When he said to listen to Moses in order not to fall in the same Hell of the richman, he mean to say that the Law was not abolished but it was still to be observed by all the People of Israel. But then, Paul came, about 30 years later after Jesus had been gone and said that the Law was abolished on the cross, as if Jesus was either lying or didn't know what he was talking about. (Ephe. 2:15)

And... who did Paul preach to? (Hint: They weren't "People of Israel.") Paul preached to people other than "people of Israel." Last time I looked, the people of Israel still keep the Law. What's your problem?

 

[Hodad]

But then, Paul came, about 30 years later after Jesus had been gone and said that the Law was abolished on the cross, as if Jesus was either lying or didn't know what he was talking about. (Ephe. 2:15)

Shalom!

I guess we need to start with Peter talking about Paul...

2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
Many seem to ignore this advise and try to make the Pharisee Rav Shaul (Paul) out to be simple to understand in all his writings, he's not.

Let's look at this verse in a little more context...

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "uncircumcision" by that which is called "circumcision," (in the flesh, made by hands);
Ephesians 2:12 that you were at that time separate from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Messiah.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition,
Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby.
So what was the middle wall of partition that was broken down, the hostility that was killed on the cross?

Keeping all of Eph 2 in mind, there are two things being addressed here. The first being the man made ordinances that separated Jews and Gentiles when it came to worshiping YHWH. From the giving of the Law until the destruction of the first Temple, all one needed to do was join themselves to the God of Israel and obey the Torah. Once we move into the second Temple era, there had been created a ritual Jewish conversion policy that Gentiles were now forced to follow. Because the belief was Jews and only Jews had a place in the world to come. THIS is one of the things torn down by Messiah on the cross.

The second was what Paul call 'under the law' which was his shorthand for 'under the condemnation of the Law'. Sin and the punishment required for sin is what separates us from God. Yeshua has that hostility, that separation, to death, with His death on the cross for those who join themselves to Him.

When one really studies Paul they should find that he not only was Torah observant himself, but taught that all believers need to be observant of the written Torah.

By the way...verse 11 is the key to understand most of Paul's circumcision/un-circumcision writings. When talking to Jews - circumcision = ethnic identity, when talking to Gentiles - circumcision = Jewish conversion.

 

[Ben Masada]

Shalom!

Shalom Hodad.

I guess we need to start with Peter talking about Paul...

The only time we have Peter talking about Paul was in the Nazarene Council in Jerusalem when Paul arrived for his second visit, to solve a contension he had with some "Judaiazers," a term he used to call the Nazarenes. And what Peter said was that he, Peter, had been the one chosen by God to be an Apostle to the Gentiles and not Paul. See Acts 15:7.

2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
Many seem to ignore this advise and try to make the Pharisee Rav Shaul (Paul) out to be simple to understand in all his writings, he's not.

Regarding those two Letters attributed to Peter, this never wrote them. They were written by unknown Hellenistic writers. Peter was an illiterate, unlearned and ignorant man. See Acts 4:13. Illiterate people can't write books.

Let's look at this verse in a little more context...Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "uncircumcision" by that which is called "circumcision," (in the flesh, made by hands); Ephesians 2:12 that you were at that time separate from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Messiah. Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. So what was the middle wall of partition that was broken down, the hostility that was killed on the cross?

This whole text above is only a Pauline explanation for his policy of Replacement Theology, which constitutes an insult to the Jewish religious dignity.

Keeping all of Eph 2 in mind, there are two things being addressed here. The first being the man made ordinances that separated Jews and Gentiles when it came to worshiping YHWH.

Such ordinances did not exist. Jews were proselytizers par excellence. So much so that all churches Paul took over throughout Asia Minor and North Africa were synagogues formed by the proselytes of the Nazarenes, who would become staunt defenders of the Law. Read Acts 21:20.

From the giving of the Law until the destruction of the first Temple, all one needed to do was join themselves to the God of Israel and obey the Torah.

Sorry, but that's not true, if you read Isaiah 56:1-8. There were a few requirements for Gentiles to join God's Covenant with the Jews.

Once we move into the second Temple era, there had been created a ritual Jewish conversion policy that Gentiles were now forced to follow. Because the belief was Jews and only Jews had a place in the world to come. THIS is one of the things torn down by Messiah on the cross.

If by Messiah, you mean Jesus, that's not true either, because Jesus made it very clear that he did not come to abolish anything in the Law and the Prophets but fulfill and to confim down to the letter, so that all Jews would practice, lest they would not partake of the kingdom of God. See Matthew 5:17-19. Especially verse 19.

The second was what Paul call 'under the law' which was his shorthand for 'under the condemnation of the Law'.

He was wrong because God did not give us the Law to condemn us but to show the way to live in harmony with each other in society. Read Psalm 119.

Sin and the punishment required for sin is what separates us from God.

Yes, but Prophet Isaiah had from God the method to reconnect ourselves with God so that our sins, from scarlet red would become as white as snow. See Isaiah 1:18,19

Yeshua has that hostility, that separation, to death, with His death on the cross for those who join themselves to Him.

That did not happen because Jeremiah made it very clear that, according to the New Covenant established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, every one is supposed to die for his own iniquity. (Jer. 31:30) Jesus was born already under this covenant. It means that he did not die for our iniquities but on political charges. No wonder Pilate nailed that plaque on the top of his cross, with the reason why he had been crucified. Because he had been proclaimed king of the Jews.

When one really studies Paul they should find that he not only was Torah observant himself, but taught that all believers need to be observant of the written Torah.

I really studied Paul and found out that he used to preach against Moses, which is the same as to preach against Torah. He used to preach against circumcision which constituted the everlasting token of the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gen. 17:13) And he used to preach against the Jewish customs. It is all in Acts 21:21.

By the way...verse 11 is the key to understand most of Paul's circumcision/un-circumcision writings. When talking to Jews - circumcision = ethnic identity, when talking to Gentiles - circumcision = Jewish conversion.

Jews have their method as requirements for ethnic identity and Jewish conversion. No different at all from the Christian method of baptism so that a Christian be identified as a Christian. And last but not least, Jesus never had anything to do with Christianity, which started with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. You can read it in Acts 11:26.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

And... who did Paul preach to? (Hint: They weren't "People of Israel.") Paul preached to people other than "people of Israel." Last time I looked, the people of Israel still keep the Law. What's your problem?

Paul used to preach to the Jews throughout Asia Minor to abandon Moses, which is the same as to abandon Torah, to stop circumcising their children, as well as to stop walking after the Jewish customs. Read Acts 21:21. And the last time I watched a Christian preacher on TV evangelism, he was promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which some scholars consider as religious Antisemitism.
Ben

 

[thespiritoftruth]

Yahshua's message was clear...Love the Lord thy God with all your heart mind and soul and do unto others as you would have them do unto you...all the other laws hang on this...sometimes the simplicity of this statement is lost in traditional beliefs...what is more important...tradition or truth?

 

[thespiritoftruth]

we are to live by faith and abide in love with hope for eternal life...the kingdom of heaven is in and around us and fills all but the evil one is always near causing doubt enough to keep men from being one with God...when man realizes his gift then the evil one will be destroyed

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes if you do not obey Moses' law Christ or a resurrected person is of no benefit to you. To be in Christ you need to have the foundation of the law, for how can you move closer to God if you are a willful law breaker. A true Christian should not be a hypocrite.

Good answer but, there is something not cosher about this reply of yours.

I do not simply believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead, By His grace He gave me the witness that He has indeed resurrected from the dead, before that I did try with no much success to obey the law. But when He knocked at the door of my heart I said to Him "I received you this morning" For I had partaken of the Eucharist that morning and with that faithful confession He blessed me with His presence and give me to understand the New Testament.

How indeed did he resurrect? Was there an eyewitness to his resurrection? If you can show me one in your NT, you have won this Jew to Christianity. Go right ahead. I am all ears.

Ben, we are like the railway tracks for they are going to the same place but never meet.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. In one of his prayers, Jesus himself said that the truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) He probably had in mind the Psalmist text that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. That's in Psalm 147:19,20. It means that we are not like the railway tracks, because we are indeed going in different directions.
Ben

 

[sojourner]

Paul used to preach to the Jews throughout Asia Minor to abandon Moses, which is the same as to abandon Torah, to stop circumcising their children, as well as to stop walking after the Jewish customs. Read Acts 21:21. And the last time I watched a Christian preacher on TV evangelism, he was promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which some scholars consider as religious Antisemitism.
Ben

Again: They weren't people of Israel. They were people of Asia Minor.
And who the heck puts any stock in anything a televangelist says? replacement theology is wrong. It's not what Jesus taught, nor is it what Paul taught.