Jesus and the law

[HouseofIsrael]

The gentiles were never under the OT law and were not placed under the OT law at the coming of chirst.

The OT law was not only the law but the judge of the isrealites. The law judged the people without mercy. And eye for an eye. Thats that.

The gentiles were not under this law therefore was never judged by this law.

The gentiles are under the law of christ. You cannot break christ like you can break a commandment. You can only not believe in the commandment which is to believe in the son, and to do that you have to love him.

Therefore there is only one sin that leads to death...unbelief.

Jesus is our law and our judge and our high priest.

If the OT is still our law and our judge we would need levitical priests to do sacrifices for us

heneni

Jesus kept and uphold the law. What do you refer to OT?

 

[HouseofIsrael]

Love the lord thy God and thy nieghbor as thyself... we can't mess up if we keep these

But we do mess up right? God's laws are to be kept so also, the law of the land.

 

[HouseofIsrael]

IF you LOVE ME you WILL keep MY COMMANDMENTS!!!!

Thats if you love him..otherwise..carry on!

Try not to jump stop lights, whether you love to wait or not.

 

[gwk230]

well, what about Luke 16:16?

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the Kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Lets not stop there........

Luk 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void.

Last time I looked outside, heaven and earth were both still here. :yes:

 

[gwk230]

As to my understanding......

Mat 22:37 Yahshua said to him, "'You shall love YAH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 The whole Torah and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."
　
And this is done by the so called ten commandments when you see that the first four of the ten is to do with how we are to treat Yah our Elohim and the last six have to do with how we treat each other.
　
The definition of how we are to love Elohim is answered here…..
　
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
　
When one then understands the ten commandments then they will also understand that they are almost like titles of various chapters in a book for the whole of the Torah and the prophets. These can be directly associated with the two which Yahshua spoke of in Mat 22:37-40 which are directly related to the ten commandments which in turn are attached to the whole of the Torah and the prophets. They go hand in hand for the same purpose and outcome.

 

[Heneni]

The OT law judged the people. Without mercy. An eye for an eye.

Jesus is now the law, he is the one we need to obey, and the commandment to obey is, to love him. He is now our judge and the judge of the whole world.

The OT law only judged the isrealites. It required levitical priests to offer sacrifices for sin.

Now that jeus is the law, he is the judge of all mankind, and he is the highpriest having offered the last sacrifice, himself, for sin.

Heneni

 

[gwk230]

The OT law judged the people. Without mercy. An eye for an eye.

Jesus is now the law, he is the one we need to obey, and the commandment to obey is, to love him. He is now our judge and the judge of the whole world.

The OT law only judged the isrealites. It required levitical priests to offer sacrifices for sin.

Now that jeus is the law, he is the judge of all mankind, and he is the highpriest having offered the last sacrifice, himself, for sin.

Heneni

I would love to see you prove this scripturally.

 

[Heneni]

I would love to see you prove this scripturally.

Would it make a difference?

But i would be glad to...which part of my post would you love to me see prove first? Is it all of it, or will you have mercy on me, and start somewhere specific?

 

[HouseofIsrael]

The OT law judged the people. Without mercy. An eye for an eye.

Jesus is now the law, he is the one we need to obey, and the commandment to obey is, to love him. He is now our judge and the judge of the whole world.

The OT law only judged the isrealites. It required levitical priests to offer sacrifices for sin.

Now that jeus is the law, he is the judge of all mankind, and he is the highpriest having offered the last sacrifice, himself, for sin.

Heneni

Some aspects of Moses law were abolished by Jesus which were mainly the sacrificial law. Apart from that, Jesus upheld the law, he kept the sabbath, the ten commandments -the same that was given to Moses in the old testament by God. He changed none of it.

 

[Heneni]

Some aspects of Moses law were abolished by Jesus which were mainly the sacrificial law. Apart from that, Jesus upheld the law, he kept the sabbath, the ten commandments -the same that was given to Moses in the old testament by God. He changed none of it.

Hi. Jesus didnt change the OT law. He became the new law.

Let me try to explain. In the OT, the OT law brought with it, priests. Whenever there is a change in priesthood, not talking one man replacing another, but rather the office of a priest, there is the establishment of a new law.

Jesus became the highpriest, just as the levites were priests. Therefore there was also a change in law.

The OT law required the appointment of this kind of priests:

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

There has been a change in priesthood because there has been a change in the law that judges people.

Hebrews 7:12
12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

Was there a change in priesthood?

Hebrews 7:11
11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 9:11
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

There was a change in priesthood, because the perfection could not come by the OT priests.

Hebrews 7:19
19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Perfection could not come by the law, and therefore not by the OT priests either. So a new law was made, with a new priest, and a new judge. Jesus is the new law, the new priest and the new judge.

Heneni

 

[HouseofIsrael]

Hi. Jesus didnt change the OT law. He became the new law.

Let me try to explain. In the OT, the OT law brought with it, priests. Whenever there is a change in priesthood, not talking one man replacing another, but rather the office of a priest, there is the establishment of a new law.

Jesus became the highpriest, just as the levites were priests. Therefore there was also a change in law.

The OT law required the appointment of this kind of priests:

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

There has been a change in priesthood because there has been a change in the law that judges people.

Hebrews 7:12
12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

Was there a change in priesthood?

Hebrews 7:11
11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 9:11
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

There was a change in priesthood, because the perfection could not come by the OT priests.

Hebrews 7:19
19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Perfection could not come by the law, and therefore not by the OT priests either. So a new law was made, with a new priest, and a new judge. Jesus is the new law, the new priest and the new judge.

Heneni

The Levitical priesthood could not in itself be perfect so it had to be change as you quoted in Heb 7:12. Under that law, only males from the tribe of Levi were allowed to be priest, Jesus and many of the prophets and priest was from the tribe of Judea not Levi. That shows how imperfect that law was, that is why our understanding about the laws go deep, for instance we do not believe in the water baptism another example of what Jesus era brought to an end -John baptise people by water that was part of the old law. Jesus baptism was by the Holy Ghost or the word of God -water doesn't change people but the word of God does. But we are not to follow the idea that Jesus ended the law in entirety and that was a constant debate with the scribes and pharisees in the days of Jesus as a result he quoted Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus was not about ending the law) he taught them that in order to gain eternal life one had to keep the whole law. Please understand, Moses law or the OT law as may be referred to had flaws and Jesus dealt with those flaws by changing what was necessary. Kind of like the same thing Presidents do after they get in office. But ending the law, never ever.

 

[gwk230]

Would it make a difference?

But i would be glad to...which part of my post would you love to me see prove first? Is it all of it, or will you have mercy on me, and start somewhere specific?

The OT law judged the people. Without mercy. An eye for an eye.

　
Saying this is like saying that the law books we have today judge people. But rather I see appointed judges sitting using these law books to show them the law and hearing what plaintiffs, defendants and the witnesses have to say on any given issue. If one was accused of murder then the judge would see in the law book that it is written that murder is not acceptable and that there is penalties which are judgments that the judge would hand down if the accused was found guilty. Now it is completely in the judges hands to either extend a judgment with mercy or not. One could have a life sentence or “X” number of years or the death penalty. This would all boil down to any explanations as to why the act was committed along with any compassion the judge may have toward the accused because of said explanations.
　
We are judged by the law of the land and this isn’t to say that the law itself is a judge but rather the one who judges and uses said law to do so is judging by the said laws. That being said I see no where that it is stated that the law is judge.
　
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
　
As far as mercy is of concern I see plenty of instances all through out the Tanach that mercy was given by the one who judges. His law was given not to transgress but it was also made to instruct a way of life and to engender love and compassion toward Yah as well as on each other.
　

Jesus is now the law, he is the one we need to obey, and the commandment to obey is, to love him.

　
Well I understand Yahshua himself saying ………..
　
Mat 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, Elohim. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
　
Are not the commandments also the law? The same law that was handed down unto Moshe at Sinai by Elohim? I agree we must obey Yahshua here because he points the way of the father and that is the fathers words. His Torah. The ten words, or rather ten commandments, are like titles of chapters in a book. We see the command not to steal and within that named chapter we see the various statutes attached to said command. Whether it is like the law of the land that breaks it down as to whether or not one broke into a place to get shelter and rest which is considered a misdemeanor or they broke into a place where people were and stole something which is viewed as a felony.
　
To love is nothing new. If we are to love him, how is that accomplished? I see that in 1 John we are told how to love Elohim…….
　
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
　
So we love Yahshua by obeying him when he tells us to keep his fathers Torah which in turns shows our love for the father. I rather love the father first which shows my love for the son.
　

He is now our judge and the judge of the whole world.

　
Not quite yet. My understanding is that the world is still in the hands of Helel as he himself told Yahshua in the wilderness. Yah gave Helel the power and control over the world until such and such a time that Yah will’s. Now when that time expires then Yahshua will return and take control and judge the living and the dead for a thousand years. Those that died in, as well as those that are still alive that have, belief of Yahshua that are found righteous enough to be raised at this time will do so by Yahshua’s judgment and will not have to face the second death as others may at the great white throne of judgment when the second resurrection occurs. The others are those that are raised at the end of the thousand years, and the short period that Helel is loosed to once again deceive the world, will have to face that judgment. The judge then will be Elohim. One has to remember that there is only one judge and only one who can save and that is Yah. Yah has given authority to others to do so but they are commanded to do so righteously which is out of his torah.
　

The OT law only judged the isrealites.

　
Oh so Adam was a Yisraelite? Cain? Noah? All that perished in the flood? Abraham and his wife? Those that lived in Sodom and Gomorrah? The Amalekites? Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
　
The law has always been and is for all of mankind to live by as a way of life.
　

It required levitical priests to offer sacrifices for sin.

　
This was part of the Torah but not all of it. Sin is transgression of the Torah. With no Torah there is no sin. But Yah saw that man still did by nature those things in opposition to his Torah even with the blood of animals when it was designed to prick the conscience of man for his wrong doing so he set those aside for a time and raised up a Yahshua to die once for all sins past. Man can no longer spill anymore blood to cover his future sins as he was allowed to before. That has been taken away for now. All there is now is “Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” This of course is only for those that are of the knowledge and have been washed in the blood of Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed with a true and earnest heart/mind. Because if you had been so washed and decided to do such things as is against Yah’s Torah then “Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of Elohim, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
　

Now that jeus is the law

　
I do not see this. The law has always been and Yahshua followed the law to a tee and upheld and promoted it his whole life as being what we should all observe and obey. He only became a sacrifice for sins past thus fulfilling the sacrificial law for a time prescribed by Yah. He has not become the law because he was always in it. He has been spoken of in Torah since Bere****. Not as a replacement but rather a tool to promote its use.
　

he is the judge of all mankind,

　
Only during his millennial reign.
　

and he is the highpriest having offered the last sacrifice, himself, for sin.

　
Sins past in which he was Yah‘s sacrifice for us. Remember that “Yah gave” his only begotten son?
　
I agree with high priest as he stands before Elohim perpetuating for our sins that we may commit out of ignorance or weaknesses.
　
You have heard my arguments by my understanding of the way I have been taught through, and by, Sinaiticism and now I would like to hear yours by your understanding. Keep in mind that I am not looking to discredit you in your understanding just because it differs from mine. I have only shown my understanding as a Sinaiticist that practices Sinaiticism. I know it differs from everybody else’s understanding and I am very much at ease and confidant about it. I am only curious as to how others understand what is written as it is just opposed to what is simply written.

 

[Heneni]

The Levitical priesthood could not in itself be perfect so it had to be change as you quoted in Heb 7:12. Under that law, only males from the tribe of Levi were allowed to be priest, Jesus and many of the prophets and priest was from the tribe of Judea not Levi. That shows how imperfect that law was, that is why our understanding about the laws go deep, for instance we do not believe in the water baptism another example of what Jesus era brought to an end -John baptise people by water that was part of the old law. Jesus baptism was by the Holy Ghost or the word of God -water doesn't change people but the word of God does. But we are not to follow the idea that Jesus ended the law in entirety and that was a constant debate with the scribes and pharisees in the days of Jesus as a result he quoted Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus was not about ending the law) he taught them that in order to gain eternal life one had to keep the whole law. Please understand, Moses law or the OT law as may be referred to had flaws and Jesus dealt with those flaws by changing what was necessary. Kind of like the same thing Presidents do after they get in office. But ending the law, never ever.

Hi there! There is a lot we agree on. And i dont disagree with the idea that we ought to do the right thing, which the 10 commandments really teach.

To have a point of discussion and to make sure we are on the same page, can you explain, by using scripture how the gentiles were ever under a jewish OT law?

If they were not under the OT law, how then do you conclude that the gentiles must now be put under it or part of it (the ten commandments)?

God Bless
Heneni

 

[Heneni]

But ending the law, never ever.

Alright you believe that the law is eternal, and it is, what did change was by which law we are judged. The OT law had no authority over the gentiles. It was a jewish law and required levitical priest and the gentiles were never part of that. SO the law that god gave the isrealites will never be abolished. But when a new law comes, so does a new priest (jesus - a priest in the order of melchizedek). This law was not only for the Gentiles but also for the jews he was going to save. The law of christ is what judges the saved people of god. If you are a jew and not saved then the OT law is still for you to obey!

But righteousness for the gentile/jew saved people comes not from obeying the OT law, but from obeying christ, and so their judge cannot be the OT law, but himself.

Just as no letter of the OT law will be destroyed, in the same way no letter of the new law, christ will be destroyed either. The difference is only in who your judge is. If you want to be under the OT law, which i cant imagine a gentile would want to do, and even CAN do unless they convert to judiasm, you will be judged by the OT law.

But we cant have the OT law as our judge and jesus as our judge. Cant have two judges.

The law the christians are under is the law of chirst and therefore He is their only judge.

Heneni

 

[gwk230]

The OT law had no authority over the gentiles. The law of christ is what judges the saved people of god. But righteousness for the gentile/jew saved people comes not from obeying the OT law, but from obeying christ, and so their judge cannot be the OT law, but himself. Just as no letter of the OT law will be destroyed, in the same way no letter of the new law, christ will be destroyed either. The law the christians are under is the law of chirst and therefore He is their only judge.

O.k.

What are the laws you say your under? Name them please. Type them out here if you would. How many are they? How different are they than the ones that are in the OT? What examples did Yahshua give that the laws in the OT should not be obeyed by those that is under him?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

O.k.

What are the laws you say your under? Name them please. Type them out here if you would. How many are they? How different are they than the ones that are in the OT? What examples did Yahshua give that the laws in the OT should not be obeyed by those that is under him?

If I may I should be able to list these for you.
We are under the Law of Grace.
In this Law is the freedom that being under the Law of the letter could never provide.
Jesus said to Love God with all out heart, mind and soul. If there be any other Law it is this, to love our neighbor as we would love ourselves.
Heneni may have a different view on this, but shouldn't be to far off.

You see, it was never God's will for us to serve a Law that convicts us of sin. So under our new Law we no longer have to try and atone for our sins. Paul spoke plenteous on this subject. If we serve the Law of the letter we will die, if we serve the Law of Grace we will live.

If the Laws and commandments of old could have made us right with God, there would not have to be a yearly continual observance. If we had gotten right with God from the Law of the letter, the Law would have ceased. However, the Law never ceased, so we know it never made us right with God.
Jesus made one offering, and by that one offering he got right with God on our behalf, so that we never have to try to get right through the Law again.

Make sense?

 

[Heneni]

O.k.

What are the laws you say your under? Name them please. Type them out here if you would. How many are they? How different are they than the ones that are in the OT? What examples did Yahshua give that the laws in the OT should not be obeyed by those that is under him?

There is only one law i am under - christ
There is only one judge for me - christ
There is only one high priest for me - christ

And when i say 'i' i mean my spirit.

Since i am spiritually infused into christ, i am judged guiltless as he is.
Since i am spiritually infused into chirst, the sacrifice for my sin, is eternally completed and i share that pardon by being in christ.
Since i am spirtually infused into christ, i am set apart and holy, blameless in the eyes of god.

The only law i live by is the law of christ. This law has been written on my heart (my spirit). I therefore am compelled to live by that law, due to god pouring his love out in my heart to obey out of love instead of out of outward duty, but rather out of desire.

However i still have a body and a soul, that is corrupted. And with it i can sin. But with my recreated spirit, i cannot sin, because that spirit is in christ, who is unable to sin as well. The seed of god remains in my spirit and therefore since god cannot sin,neither can my spirit and therefore it cannot become corrupted but is forever preserved in the body of christ.

My body and soul that does still sin, is condemned and will be destroyed.

Heneni

 

[gwk230]

If I may I should be able to list these for you.
We are under the Law of Grace.
In this Law is the freedom that being under the Law of the letter could never provide.
Jesus said to Love God with all out heart, mind and soul. If there be any other Law it is this, to love our neighbor as we would love ourselves.
Heneni may have a different view on this, but shouldn't be to far off.
You see, it was never God's will for us to serve a Law that convicts us of sin. So under our new Law we no longer have to try and atone for our sins. Paul spoke plenteous on this subject. If we serve the Law of the letter we will die, if we serve the Law of Grace we will live.
If the Laws and commandments of old could have made us right with God, there would not have to be a yearly continual observance. If we had gotten right with God from the Law of the letter, the Law would have ceased. However, the Law never ceased, so we know it never made us right with God.
Jesus made one offering, and by that one offering he got right with God on our behalf, so that we never have to try to get right through the Law again.
Make sense?

　
No, not really.
　
What is this law of grace? Where is it so mentioned? I understand that we have the grace of time to get it right before we die. I understand that Yah sent his grace in the form of the Moshiach to save those that would do his commandments and believe on the one he sent. I also understand that the sacrificial laws being set aside for a time since Yahshua became the last sacrifice which only covered those sins past for those that have been so sanctified in his blood. I further understand sin is still abound even for those that have been so sanctified and I understand that sin is the transgression of the law and that law is the Torah so the Torah is still in effect. I very much understand that all of the laws so stated by Yahshua are in the Torah. All this understanding has led me to further understand that there is nothing new under the sun.
　
Make sense?

 

[gwk230]

There is only one law i am under - christ
There is only one judge for me - christ
There is only one high priest for me - christ

And when i say 'i' i mean my spirit.

Since i am spiritually infused into christ, i am judged guiltless as he is.
Since i am spiritually infused into chirst, the sacrifice for my sin, is eternally completed and i share that pardon by being in christ.
Since i am spirtually infused into christ, i am set apart and holy, blameless in the eyes of god.

The only law i live by is the law of christ. This law has been written on my heart (my spirit). I therefore am compelled to live by that law, due to god pouring his love out in my heart to obey out of love instead of out of outward duty, but rather out of desire.

However i still have a body and a soul, that is corrupted. And with it i can sin. But with my recreated spirit, i cannot sin, because that spirit is in christ, who is unable to sin as well. The seed of god remains in my spirit and therefore since god cannot sin,neither can my spirit and therefore it cannot become corrupted but is forever preserved in the body of christ.

My body and soul that does still sin, is condemned and will be destroyed.

Heneni

What is the law of christ? Where is all of what you have so stated in scripture? What basis do you have for making such claims? How is it on earth that your so called spirit is separate from your body as you claim that your body still sins but your spirit does not. What is your spirit? Where is it? What makes it so different than the rest of you? And with all your answers please show the references from scripture to back up these claims you make.

 

[Heneni]

What is the law of christ? Where is all of what you have so stated in scripture? What basis do you have for making such claims? How is it on earth that your so called spirit is separate from your body as you claim that your body still sins but your spirit does not. What is your spirit? Where is it? What makes it so different than the rest of you? And with all your answers please show the references from scripture to back up these claims you make.

Its not making any sense is it? I can deal with all your questions but i will answer what i can without having to post scripture yet. This subject is deep and can take a long time even for a christian to fully explore all of its depth.

Instead of putting it all out there and wasting my time and yours on a post too long to read, and to boring to care, we must start somewhere alright?

What do i mean christ is my law? I mean that he is the one that personifies the standard I can live by. He is a law in living form. He is not a law written in letters, he is a living standard that invites one to live like him in order to experience true life, and that standard is written in our heart so to speak in the form of His living presence in the spirit of a man.

The OT law was the standard by which all jews had to life by. Christ is the standard by which his gentile children CAN live by. He is the bar that sets the standard for right thinking and right living and right doing.

How can we sum up what christs standard is for us? To love him with all our hearts soul and mind. That means to DESIRE him. The standard of christ was nothing short than absolute desire to please his father in everyway and everyday. When we desire jesus we unlock all the power that he has to transform us from the inside out. So that the law of christ is not a yoke or a burden but instead a freedom from rituals and a living in the glorious joy of desiring to please him everyday more than the day before.

This kind of law starts on the inside of a man and transforms him from within. Now, for god to work on the inside of a man, he has to extend grace to him. Undeserved favour. So that He might draw near to him and fellowship with him in order to transform him. The transformation happens quite naturally in the man as he communes with god everyday. Without grace, gods undeserved favour, one would never be able to approach the king and he would never approach you in a way that speaks of 'friendship and relationship'. So the law of christ, our standard by which we can live, is a standard that can never be achieved unless we have a desire for god, which he places in us as he reveals himself to us, and the majesty and glory of his being grips us so, that we would be utterly devastated if he does not also extend to us the grace (undeserved favour) to draw near to such beauty, grace,splendor and majesty. And to be drawn by god completely because of undeserved favour, is to be changed forever by the transforming power of his presence in the spirit of a man.

If you have any questions thus far please fire away.