Jesus, Beer, & Soldiers Field

[Jayhawker Soule]

Grin and Bear It

Though not a big Jesus fan, I must admit to a near religious support of the Bears, a support that is marred by two recurrent problems:

1. They're not very good.
2. The stadium experience is not very pleasant.

Thanks to the Cubs, Chicagoans are fairly use to dealing with poor performance, so I'm reasonably confident in my ability to manage the first problem. The second is not so easy to deal with. I'm just sick and tired of rowdy fans drinking way too much beer and causing way too much trouble for the rest of us in the stands.

So it came to me: Why not drive the beer sellers out of the stadium?

Sadly, there are a couple of reasons: (a) they have a history there, (b) they are there legally, (c) they serve a legitimate function, and (d) any attempt by me to throw them out would result in me getting severely pummeled by the combined might of the police, security guards, and fan base. Bottom line: thank God for TV because it ain't happening!

The "Temple Tantrum"

Those who read the story about the 'money changers' typically have neither the background nor the inclination to visualize what is being suggested. They fail to realize that the Temple was massive, in fact far larger that Soldiers Field. They do not understand, much less consider, the critically important role played by the money-changers and, indeed, the rest of the Temple infrastructure. They certainly don't take into account the fact that both Roman and Jewish guards would have been on hand and unwilling to entertain lawless disruptions. Read, for example, the following by Paula Fredriksen:

Further, since 1988 I have learned more about the Temple, both from studying E.P. Sanders’ Judaism: Practice and Belief, and from my time in Israel. Sanders provides approximate measurements that give a sense of the sheer size of the place: the total circumference of the outermost wall ran to almost 9/10ths of a mile; twelve soccer fields, including stands, could be fit in; when necessary (as during the pilgrimage festivals, especially Passover) it could accommodate as many as 400,000 worshipers.

I have trouble visualizing space from numbers. It was not until I started walking around the Temple Mount that I began to understand how huge the Temple area — specifically its outermost court, around the perimeter of which, beneath the protection from sun or storm offered by the stoa or the Royal Portico, "those who sold" could be found — must have been. Its very size shrank the significance of Jesus’ putative action, and prompted the question: If Jesus had made such a gesture, how many would have seen it? Those in his retinue and those standing immediately around him. But how many, in the congestion and confusion of that holiday crowd, could have seen what was happening even, say, twenty feet away? Fifty feet? The effect of Jesus' gesture at eye-level would have been muffled, swallowed up by the sheer press of pilgrims. How worried, then, need the priests have been?

- see From Jesus to Christ

Bottom line: thank God for apologetic creativity because it ain't happening!

 

[phernduke]

When someone fires off a gun in a mall? What happens, the people are frighten and they are subdued, therefore a small incident in a mall by one man, could be seen and heard by many. The temple was a place of worship and obviously things were being sold, but most likely the crowds were also very subdued, due to the fact of there location.

I had the privelege of seeing Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. There we're merchants outside and on the steps everywhere. Yet the merchants were quiet as reverence to the Cathedral. One with little faith, is one with little hope.

Perhaps you should accept Jesus Christ into your heart and begin to have more faith and everlasting life.

-Chris

 

[Prima]

Deut, I'm not sure I see your point. Are you saying that it didn't happen, or are you merely saying that it was pointless? I would disagree with the first, but agree with the second.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps you should accept Jesus Christ into your heart and begin to have more faith and everlasting life.

I much prefer fig trees.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Deut, I'm not sure I see your point ...

It is a story, written decades later, by someone who witnessed absolutely nothing, having zero credibility.

 

[Prima]

It is a story, written decades later, by someone who witnessed absolutely nothing, having zero credibility.

A witty rejoinder doesn't necessarily answer the question of someone who was willing to debate and discuss with you. So I ask you again, which of those two points was your incredible story referring to?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A witty rejoinder doesn't necessarily answer the question of someone who was willing to debate and discuss with you. So I ask you again, which of those two points was your incredible story referring to?

Good grief! :banghead3 I am saying that: it is a story, written decades later, by someone who witnessed absolutely nothing, having zero credibility. What is there about story and zero credibility that is unclear. As for witty, I see nothing witty about anti-Judaic pericopes fabricated for apologetic ends.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Grin and Bear It

Though not a big Jesus fan, I must admit to a near religious support of the Bears, a support that is marred by two recurrent problems:

1. They're not very good.
2. The stadium experience is not very pleasant.

I know it's not normally acceptable to speak compassionately of rivals, but as a life long Lions fan, you have my deepest sympathy.

I'm in quite a lighthearted mood tonight, so no further commentary or debate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

[/list]I know it's not normally acceptable to speak compassionately of rivals, but as a life long Lions fan, you have my deepest sympathy.

Nice draft. Perhaps a religiousforums fantasy football league? With 24 players we might even arrange a theist and atheist Division.

[And don't anyone suggest it's off-topic. We've simply drifted from one fantasy to another.]

 

[The Voice of Reason]

With 24 players we might even arrange a theist and atheist Division.

Perhaps an Agnostic Division? I like my odds, as there doesn't appear to be many in this camp...

TVOR

 

[Majikthise]

Yeah, we've got plenty of tight ends around here.

 

[true blood]

Whoa Deut. This is like your fifth post about the temple incident. Move on man. It's almost as if you have personal issues with a story written about two thousand years ago. I'd almost consider your repeats of this "temple tantrum" a bit of your own little tantrum ya have going on. But lets clear up some things first. Do you feel that the temple police and roman police should have apprehended Jesus el pronto? Yes? That's good. I kind of agree with you. But it wasn't our call to make. This situation was bigger then you think. After all, hundreds of thousands of people from all over the middle east traveled to Jerusalem this time of year for the special High Sabbath, the feast and that fond word of "passover". Massive throngs of people hanging out at the temple having a good time I imagine. The day before, didn't Jesus walk into the city worshipped like a king by all of those people? Yes he was. He even entered the temple and thousands bowed before him. But your telling us that the next day had this man overturned a few tables, merchants selling goods in violation of true temple laws, he would have been arrested? Please. That is not realistic. It would have been interesting had they tried, no doubt. A few soldiers apprehending Jesus among hundreds of thousands who bowed down to him. The entire city would have been in an uproar, perhaps the whole region. Caesar would have had Pilates head on a stake.

 

[Riven]

Though not a big Jesus fan, I must admit to a near religious support of the Bears

Holy crap, a Bears fan! :jam:

I've been a fan for 20 years. 2001 was a wild ride, but everything's been kind of a bummer since then. I'm pretty psyched about Muhsin Muhammed, though.


Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread. Just don't see too many Bears fans these days. Carry on.