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Jesus born of a virgin?

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Did Paul invent the virgin birth?

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-d-tabor/did-paul-invent-the-virgin-birth_b_2355278.html

"An alternative way of thinking about being a Christian is preserved in the gospel of Mark--our earliest narrative account of the career of Jesus. Mark mentions neither Jesus' birth, nor any resurrection appearances on Easter morning (according to our earliest manuscripts that end with chapter 16:8)."




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-d-tabor/did-paul-invent-the-virgin-birth_b_2355278.html
 

AgogTheorist

Hi! Got storage?
Personally I agree with the claims that the virgin birth was invented or evolved by early Christians, probably in order to lend more credence to him when proselytizing. Certainly I don't agree with the use of the Isaiah quote in Matthew to ground the virgin birth in the Old Testament (ie. Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.")

I could go into a lot of detail about why I don't like the Isaiah verse (and will if you ask), but the gist is:
  • The word "virgin" was actually a mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint, which is what Matthew would have had access to. It's more properly translated "young woman".
  • If you read the Isaiah passage in context, it's clear the verse is meant to be a promise for Ahaz within his own lifetime. The "young woman", according to scholars, could very well be his own wife.
  • There's no reason why "Immanuel", meaning "God with us", should only apply to God's son.
  • It was a very common and accepted practice in the New Testament to use Old Testament passages out of context in order to provide "divine credence" to what they were writing. That certainly wouldn't fly today. But if you're curious, examine the sources of all the OT quotes in the NT, and see how many actually fit the original context.

I've also heard accounts that the legitimacy of his birth was a prominent question, especially in the second and third centuries. (eg. www . quranicstudies . com/historical-jesus/the-accusation-of-the-illegitimacy-of-jesus -- remove spaces since I can't post links yet) These accounts typically claim that Jesus was born to another man (not Joseph), or as a result of rape. I haven't researched the issue enough to have an opinion on whether I think any of these claims have justification, but personally I kind of like the idea of God working so profoundly through a man of such humble origins.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Did Paul invent the virgin birth?

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-d-tabor/did-paul-invent-the-virgin-birth_b_2355278.html

"An alternative way of thinking about being a Christian is preserved in the gospel of Mark--our earliest narrative account of the career of Jesus. Mark mentions neither Jesus' birth, nor any resurrection appearances on Easter morning (according to our earliest manuscripts that end with chapter 16:8)."
I don't believe Paul invented the Virgin Birth, but I do believe this thread belongs in a debate forum rather than the Christianity DIR. :cool:
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I don't believe Paul invented the Virgin Birth, but I do believe this thread belongs in a debate forum rather than the Christianity DIR. :cool:

Yeah, but I can't really find anything delineating the differences between debate, discussion and whatever DIR is.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
No need to avoid, just follow the DIR specific rules.

That's my problem, since I thought there was more to me joining one besides just me picking it, like some form of acceptance or something; on top of which is my confusion about the discussion/debate issue and when/where to only ask questions. I think it's best for all if I just stay on the outside.

In theory, everyone has one DIR to call their own. Yours... is not outwardly obvious, so pick one please... ;)

I would gravitate toward the Deist DIR, but you'd be surprised at how many different kinds of deists there are (or maybe you wouldn't), disabling any kind of workable definition--philosophical anarchists horning in mostly. :cool: I get accused of not being a freethinker. :thud:
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
That's my problem, since I thought there was more to me joining one besides just me picking it, like some form of acceptance or something; on top of which is my confusion about the discussion/debate issue and when/where to only ask questions. I think it's best for all if I just stay on the outside.

It's simple really, just imagine you're in the faith's house of worship, perhaps before or after the service, chatting with the practitioners. You are a guest, so you want to be discrete and polite, but are also curious about things. So, asking questions in such a mindset is what the DIR is for... saving you the trip to said house of worship. ;)
 

heksesang

Member
I am not sure that the virgin birth originated with Paul, though it might be an idea constructed by the Gentiles. There has been no prophecy about this alleged virgin birth in the Old Testament, and it seems odd how his mother and siblings did not believe him if he was born in such a way.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I am not sure that the virgin birth originated with Paul, though it might be an idea constructed by the Gentiles. There has been no prophecy about this alleged virgin birth in the Old Testament, and it seems odd how his mother and siblings did not believe him if he was born in such a way.

His mother especially.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I am not sure that the virgin birth originated with Paul, though it might be an idea constructed by the Gentiles. There has been no prophecy about this alleged virgin birth in the Old Testament,
There is in the Septuagint OT, which is what most Jews were using back in the day, and which was used by Jesus and the Apostles.

and it seems odd how his mother and siblings did not believe him if he was born in such a way.
What do you mean?
 

heksesang

Member
There is in the Septuagint OT, which is what most Jews were using back in the day, and which was used by Jesus and the Apostles.


What do you mean?

Where in the LXX is there any prophecy about this?
And what I mean is that I get an impression that they did not believe him. The NT says this clearly about his brothers, and there are plenty of times that his mother doesn't show an understanding of the fact that he was chosen by God when she should.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Where in the LXX is there any prophecy about this?
Esaias (Isaiah) 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

Look for yourself: ESAIAS / ΗΣΑΪΑΣ / 7 - Septuagint Old Testament Bilingual (Greek / English)

Also note the word translated as "virgin," parthenos:

  1. a virgin
    1. a marriageable maiden
    2. a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
    3. one's marriageable daughter
  2. a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
    1. one who has never had intercourse with women

And what I mean is that I get an impression that they did not believe him. The NT says this clearly about his brothers, and there are plenty of times that his mother doesn't show an understanding of the fact that he was chosen by God when she should.
Which times are you thinking of in particular for Mary?
 
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AgogTheorist

Hi! Got storage?
You got a problem, take it up with the Gospel of Matthew, brah

Ok, will do!

As I said in my first post on this thread, there are all kinds of concerns with the translation and usage of the "born of a virgin" prophecy. I'll elaborate a bit on them here.

First off, yes indeed, the LXX (Greek translation) does use "parthenos" or "virgin" in the Isaiah passage. However, this is an incorrect translation from the Hebrew. The Hebrew reads "almah" or "young woman". By contrast, the word for "virgin" in Hebrew is "bethulah". If the author of Isaiah had meant "virgin", he'd have used "bethulah", and not "almah".

Since the author of Matthew only had access to the LXX, it makes sense that he'd think it said "virgin". However, the fault there lies with the translators of the LXX.

I do fault the author of Matthew with the usage of that Isaiah passage altogether, though. If you read the whole Isaiah passage in context, it's clear it has nothing to do with Jesus:

Isaiah 7:1-17 (New Jerusalem Bible)
Yahweh spoke to Ahaz again and said: Ask Yahweh your God for a sign, either in the depths of Sheol or in the heights above.

But Ahaz said, ‘I will not ask. I will not put Yahweh to the test.’

He then said: Listen now, House of David: are you not satisfied with trying human patience that you should try my God’s patience too? The Lord will give you a sign in any case: It is this: the young woman is with child and will give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel. On curds and honey will he feed until he knows how to refuse the bad and choose the good. Before the child knows how to refuse the bad and choose the good, the lands whose two kings are frightening you will be deserted. Yahweh will bring times for you, your people and your ancestral House, such as have not been seen since Ephraim broke away from Judah (the king of Assyria).

Jerusalem, of which Ahaz was king centuries before Christ, was besieged by the tribes of Ephraim and Judah. God is giving Ahaz a promise: that he would rescue Jerusalem. God is giving Ahaz a timeline: before the young woman who is already pregnant gives birth to a son, and that son learns to tell right from wrong. It simply doesn't make sense that Jesus would be the fulfillment of this promise -- the siege would be long over! Many scholars think the "young woman" referred to may have been Ahaz's own wife.

As I said above, it was a common and acceptable practice in NT-times to take OT passages out of context and use them to give divine credence to what the current author is trying to say. In fact, you can take almost any OT quote in the NT, read it in its context, and be quite surprised and/or confused. But if the author of Matthew had written the book today, his wrist would be slapped pretty solidly.

Take that, Gospel of Matthew! *snap!*
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Personally I agree with the claims that the virgin birth was invented or evolved by early Christians, probably in order to lend more credence to him when proselytizing. Certainly I don't agree with the use of the Isaiah quote in Matthew to ground the virgin birth in the Old Testament (ie. Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.")

I could go into a lot of detail about why I don't like the Isaiah verse (and will if you ask), but the gist is:
  • The word "virgin" was actually a mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint, which is what Matthew would have had access to. It's more properly translated "young woman".
  • If you read the Isaiah passage in context, it's clear the verse is meant to be a promise for Ahaz within his own lifetime. The "young woman", according to scholars, could very well be his own wife.
  • There's no reason why "Immanuel", meaning "God with us", should only apply to God's son.
  • It was a very common and accepted practice in the New Testament to use Old Testament passages out of context in order to provide "divine credence" to what they were writing. That certainly wouldn't fly today. But if you're curious, examine the sources of all the OT quotes in the NT, and see how many actually fit the original context.

I've also heard accounts that the legitimacy of his birth was a prominent question, especially in the second and third centuries. (eg. www . quranicstudies . com/historical-jesus/the-accusation-of-the-illegitimacy-of-jesus -- remove spaces since I can't post links yet) These accounts typically claim that Jesus was born to another man (not Joseph), or as a result of rape. I haven't researched the issue enough to have an opinion on whether I think any of these claims have justification, but personally I kind of like the idea of God working so profoundly through a man of such humble origins.
I started a thread related to this: Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context
There's been some good discussion on the topic if you'd like to check it out.
 
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