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Jesus Camp

InChrist

Free4ever
The synopsis in the OP brought up the question: "are these children being brainwashed?" If the answer is yes, then do you think it's a sacred right of parents to do so?

"Mind control, also known as brainwashing, . . . is a theory that human subjects can be indoctrinated in a way that causes "an impairment of autonomy, an inability to think independently, and a disruption of beliefs and affiliations. In this context, brainwashing refers to the involuntary reeducation of basic beliefs and values."
Source: Wikipedia​
I'd say that all parents "brainwash" their children. Christians, Hindus. Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, whoever, teach their children what they believe concerning God, what is right or wrong, true of false, and many other things. Most parents also understand that when children grow up they will ultimately decide for themselves what to believe despite past influences.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I'd say that all parents "brainwash" their children. Christians, Hindus. Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, whoever, teach their children what they believe concerning God, what is right or wrong, true of false, and many other things. Most parents also understand that when children grow up they will ultimately decide for themselves what to believe despite past influences.

Not all parents tell their kids those sort of things.

My parents did not tell me which religion to choose.

So please do not say "It is ok to brainwaish kids because everyone does."
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'd say that all parents "brainwash" their children. Christians, Hindus. Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, whoever, teach their children what they believe concerning God, what is right or wrong, true of false, and many other things. Most parents also understand that when children grow up they will ultimately decide for themselves what to believe despite past influences.
Then I'm sorry you have such an abysmal understanding of brainwashing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The first manifestation of speaking in tongues in the NT shows that it is a supernatural gift from the Holy Spirit for someone to speak in a real language they do not know or had never learned... And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.(Acts 2:6)
It helps to understand how I approach a reading of these mentions of it in the NT. Actually, Paul's account should be taken as the earliest mention of it, not what Luke wrote in Acts many years later. I see Paul's speaking of it around 53 CE, in direct response to his actual encounter with an actual practice within a contemporary church of his time he had direct dealings with, as opposed to Luke's later story of something he had no direct experience of, written at least 50 years after the supposed event of the Pentecost event around 34 CE.

Luke's story reads very much like the telling of myth, at the very best it is not a firsthand account, and it stands as starkly different than Paul's where he is directly speaking to not only what he was seeing happening in his time in Corinth, but he was additionally speaking from his own personal experience as someone who spoke in tongues himself. This is a case of radically different witnesses and authority of the real events happening here. Paul's account is in fact earliest and first hand, not Luke's later telling of a story from who-knows what source, with who knows what embellishments. I definitely read Luke's story as mythic, and it does not fit any credible example the common phenomenon of glossolalia in religious practices. Miracle language acquisition is mythic, like Neo in The Matrix learning how to fly a helicopter or learning Kung Fu after it being uploaded to his brain from a computer in 5 seconds flat. ;)

So according to the scripture example the gift of speaking in tongues is speaking is the ability given by the Spirit to speak in a real, but unlearned language, This rules out gibberish, stammering, stuttering, or repetitious sounds and much of what passes for tongues today.
But what I mentioned in the earliest mention of it in 1 Corinthians by Paul clearly puts it outside the "intelligible language" camp. He explicitly calls it speaking "mysteries" by the Spirit. In other words, they are not known languages where anyone can understand them. He explicitly states that they "build up" the person doing it. It's not because that person understands the linguistic meaning of the words. It's because they are speaking "to God", "mysteries" "by the Spirit". The activity itself engages the person on a spiritual level between God and themselves, and as a result they are "building themselves up", being edified by the spiritual activity itself, like prayer does. (Prayer is not for God, nor for the benefit of others, but for the benefit of the person who is doing the praying).

Paul explicitly says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." The spirit is edified, but the mind is not. It is the activity itself that builds one up. His entire point is that in the congregation, it needs to be focused on building each other up, and you speaking in tongues in ecstatic religious experience fails to do anything for others. He says, "Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified."

The purpose is also shown in Acts 2:11... "we hear them speaking in our own tongues (languages) the wonderful works of God.”, then in 1 Corinthians 14;22, Paul says..."Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers". This lines up with the first manifestation of the gift of tongues in the New Testament ( Acts 2:1-13), when there were unbelieving Jews present...dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation (Acts 2:5). So the purpose of the gift of tongues is to speak of the wonderful works of God and a sign to unbelievers.
This is curious since Paul says, " So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" That doesn't sound like it will convince them of anything other than you are mad! :) He then continues, "But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all". In other words, if someone is speaking inspired thoughts from the heart, in known languages, it does much more to convince the heart of another than pulling magic rabbits out of hats.

As you have pointed out, anyone who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people, but to God. (1 Cor. 14:2) Paul elaborates this further in chapter 14 verses 14-17. So speaking in tongues consists of praise, prayer, thanksgiving and singing addressed to God Himself about His marvelous works, mercy, and blessing to the human race.. This is very important when judging whether the gift that we hear all around today is the true, biblical gift.
When people enter into a state where they express these things in glossolalia, it is all of the above. But it's not for the benefit of others, but the one praying.

One of the first questions to ask is, "Was it addressed to men?" Often today, when interpretations are given, the content makes clear that they are claiming to give exhortation, teaching or preaching to the audience. But that is not the gift of tongues, because, according to the Word of God, this gift is not addressed to men.
Oh yes, the whole "interpretation" thing! :) Yeah. Color me utterly unconvinced. What I find interesting is how many of these "interpretations" come out in King James English. :) Way back in the day, I was like "huh?" Don't get me started. :) "Yeah, verily I say unto thee.... I have heard thy prayers, etc."

Lastly, there is not a single instance in the New Testament of any private use of tongues, or any of the gifts of the Spirit.
Except of course for the verses I cited.

Every occurrence is in a public place or open meeting...the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all (1 Corinthians 12:7).
Except of course for where Paul says explicitly, "He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself", 1 Cor, 14.4. Very clearly, you do have private practice here being spoken about.

Therefore the biblical injunction for interpretation and understanding...
In the congregation, which is the whole point of what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor. 14. "In the church". He was contrasting it with private practice.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'd say that all parents "brainwash" their children. Christians, Hindus. Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, whoever, teach their children what they believe concerning God, what is right or wrong, true of false, and many other things.
This is all very true, to a point. Enculturation is a normal part of all childhood development. But I think there are degrees of normal that occur, and degrees of sickness as well, taking it to extremes to the point it damages the psychology of children, abusive, obsessed, controlling, and so forth. You cannot discount that, nor ignore it in the mix. Very much of my points have been about seeing things on a scale, as a matter of degrees, rather than black and white evaluations. I'm sure you can see this if you look at it.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Of the over 52,000 verses in the Christian Bible there is only one other verse that mentions “foreign tongues”, the tower of Babel story. This is no mere coincidence. The Babel story illustrates the wrong way to come to God. The Pentecost story illustrates the right way to come to God.


It’s the literalism of the New Testament that creates the illusion of magic.

The connection between the Babel story and the Pentecost story is well known. If you Google “tower of Babel and Pentecost” dozens upon dozens of web pages come up. A couple of years ago the Pope had mentioned the connection between the two during a homely he did on Pentecost. http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-pentecost-is-a-feast-of-unity-understanding-a

The point is many of the stories in the New Testament come from familiar stories and concepts from the Old Testament. Much of the New Testament isn’t new at all. It’s just a reworking of existing Jewish themes.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The point is many of the stories in the New Testament come from familiar stories and concepts from the Old Testament. Much of the New Testament isn’t new at all. It’s just a reworking of existing Jewish themes.
The stories become a launching pad to teach new understandings against. This is really what makes myth myth. It has legs, and can be reimagined and reinvented and reinterpreted again and again to adapt itself to speak to the evolving situations it finds itself in. To insist upon them having only one correct understanding and interpretation, as if they are matters of historical facts that cannot be reimagined, strips them of their power to communicate truth. There is a difference between truths and facts.

An example of this is where those who reject the validity of biological evolution will cite Jesus speaking about Adam and Eve, claiming that Jesus being divine believed in the factuality of the story, and therefore science must have it wrong because it says we evolved from earlier species rather than being created literally from dirt and the spittle of God as Jesus believed. What they fail to understand is that even if he did somehow possess magical scientific knowledge (which is problematic in its own right), why would he speak to others using symbols they wouldn't understand? He wouldn't be able to communicate truths using the language if no one understood the symbols. So to speak of Adam and Eve is to speak to people using what they understood as part of their own cultural symbols.

Heck, I speak of the story of Adam and Eve all the time as there are many truths to be told from it, even though I certainly do not consider it to be the actual events of actual history. I like what E. H. W. Meyer-Stein said, “Myth is my tongue, which means not that I cheat, but stagger in a light too great to bear.” So what really is the function of these stories such as Jesus walking on water, tongues of fire sitting on heads causing the miraculous acquisition of fully intact languages that you've never heard nor spoken before, and so forth? What is their function? What is their message? Who is it speaking to, and how? How do we interpret these things? That's what their power is.

These things can be understood and reimagined in many ways, such as Luke did in his presentation in Acts, and such as how the Pope did in his Pentecost message. These are not about telling us facts, they are about symbolically creating a base for us to reimagine them to fit an unfolding of our own interpretation of eternal truths. To smash an interpretation on top of them and insist it means that and that alone, deprives it of its ability to inspire any further understanding.

There is this story of a well-respected Jewish Rabbi around the time following the destruction of the temple who was a master of reimagining and reinterpreting the Torah. In fact, that practice was common in Judaism. It tells of a fictional story to drive home the point of this, that tells how that Moses decided to come down from heaven to hear this Rabbi himself he had heard so much about. He sat back in the 8th row to remain hidden from everyone. But as he listened to the Rabbi, he couldn't understand anything the Rabbi had said about the Torah which had been revealed to Moses. Moses suddenly stands up and exclaimed with great joy, "My sons have surpassed even me!", and he made his way back to heaven happy. I think that story really speaks to the validity of how we reimagine and reinterpret things, and why in fact we should.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Luke's story reads very much like the telling of myth, at the very best it is not a firsthand account, and it stands as starkly different than Paul's where he is directly speaking to not only what he was seeing happening in his time in Corinth, but he was additionally speaking from his own personal experience as someone who spoke in tongues himself. This is a case of radically different witnesses and authority of the real events happening here. Paul's account is in fact earliest and first hand, not Luke's later telling of a story from who-knows what source, with who knows what embellishments. I definitely read Luke's story as mythic, and it does not fit any credible example the common phenomenon of glossolalia in religious practices. Miracle language acquisition is mythic, like Neo in The Matrix learning how to fly a helicopter or learning Kung Fu after it being uploaded to his brain from a computer in 5 seconds flat. ;)

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I do appreciate it, although I completely disagree. I'm sure that comes as no surprise. I am surprised, though, that any intelligent person, which I do consider you to be, would look at the writings of Luke as myth. There is simply no mythical quality to the writing style of Luke who made a point to record eyewitness accounts of events which occurred in real historical and geographical settings. Besides that, he and Paul were close co-laborers in the faith and certainly in agreement on the work of the Spirit in such things as the gift of tongues.

Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled[a] among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account... Luke 1:1-3

Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you. Colossians 4:14

Only Luke is with me... 2 Timothy 4:11

Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, 24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers. Philemon 20



But what I mentioned in the earliest mention of it in 1 Corinthians by Paul clearly puts it outside the "intelligible language" camp. He explicitly calls it speaking "mysteries" by the Spirit. In other words, they are not known languages where anyone can understand them. He explicitly states that they "build up" the person doing it. It's not because that person understands the linguistic meaning of the words. It's because they are speaking "to God", "mysteries" "by the Spirit". The activity itself engages the person on a spiritual level between God and themselves, and as a result they are "building themselves up", being edified by the spiritual activity itself, like prayer does. (Prayer is not for God, nor for the benefit of others, but for the benefit of the person who is doing the praying).

No, Paul does not put it outside of intelligent or real language. I think you are superimposing that idea on Paul's words.
Yes, he says that anyone who speaks in tongues is not understood in a congregation because he speaks "mysteries in the Spirit." But an obvious and more reasonable reason for that was that he was simply speaking in a language that they did not understand. That would, therefore, appear to be something mysterious. In the church at Corinth people would stand up and speak in these languages, perhaps recognizable as being languages used somewhere nearby (as on the Day of Pentecost), but the people there did not understand the language, and so they could not know what the speaker was saying. He was uttering, therefore, "mysteries in the Spirit."

Paul explicitly says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." The spirit is edified, but the mind is not. It is the activity itself that builds one up. His entire point is that in the congregation, it needs to be focused on building each other up, and you speaking in tongues in ecstatic religious experience fails to do anything for others. He says, "Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified."
Exactly, because Paul has already said that the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the profit of all ( 1 Cor. 12:7) and he continues with...Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.(1 Cor. 14:13 ) and What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.(1 Cor. 14:15).





When people enter into a state where they express these things in glossolalia, it is all of the above. But it's not for the benefit of others, but the one praying.


Except of course for where Paul says explicitly, "He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself", 1 Cor, 14.4. Very clearly, you do have private practice here being spoken about.

In the congregation, which is the whole point of what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor. 14. "In the church". He was contrasting it with private practice.
I see no contrast being presented by Paul. Of course he was being edified if his spirit was praising God. But the fact that he or one speaking in tongues is edified in their spirit is no proof that he was speaking of a "private practice" because the whole content of his message involves the church and the impact on others, including unbelievers who may come in, therefore the importance of interpretation and using the gift properly.

We have differing views on this so we may simply have to continue to disagree. I doubt we'll convince one another otherwise and I'm not going to go on and on with this subject.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am surprised, though, that any intelligent person, which I do consider you to be, would look at the writings of Luke as myth. There is simply no mythical quality to the writing style of Luke who made a point to record eyewitness accounts of events which occurred in real historical and geographical settings.
I could cite numerous examples of the mythic content. Here's one that just popped into my head as I read your objection.

"Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died."​

Whose standard of "historian" are you making him out to be here? Tell me you don't see the very clear apologetic agenda here, and the creation of mythmaking in full display? I certainly do. There are numerous other examples that Luke was not some dispassionate chronicler of events, like a stenographer in a courtroom. He was full of suppositions, opinions, and religious points of view. He had a very specific purpose for what he wrote, and he liberally uses myth to make his points.

Besides that, he and Paul were close co-laborers in the faith and certainly in agreement on the work of the Spirit in such things as the gift of tongues.
You don't think Luke had his own points of view? There is clear evidence that he ended up with different theological points of view than Paul as is evidenced by the narrative of Acts and Paul's letters. But even for argument's sake that Luke was nothing but a Paul Clone, in fact somehow all the Apostles were moving miraculously (aka, magically) in absolute theological lock step without any normal human points of view, I still would not take Paul's interpretation of tongues and what they are about as the final word on anything.

That Paul may have possibly imagined it was the miraculous acquisition of known languages is in fact his interpretation of the phenomenon. That itself is mythological thinking, like Luke the "physician" supposing that Herod was struck down by an angel for not giving glory to God. Paul was a man of his time, and mythological points of view were in fact the symbolic frameworks through which they interpreted and translated the world. (It's a shame people feel beholden to continue this prerational framework 2000 years later).

What I was and am keying in on is that what underlays these mythological "explanations", is a factual event. They were in fact speaking in tongues in Corinth. The fact is, that right up the road from the church in Corinth, at the top of the hill, there was a temple to Diana. And guess what was happening right there in that temple, amongst other things? They were having religious ecstatic experiences where they were speaking in tongues! Plato records this happening 400 years before the birth of Christianity. So, right there, in their neck of the woods, these Corinthians were having the same sort of religious ecstatic experiences. It was a norm in their culture.

No one, then or now, can "interpret" these utterances, as they are in fact not actual languages. My point was that Paul was in fact keying in accurate on what was happening in the ecstatic experience, and that is what these are, when he says they are praising God, building themselves up as they uttered these by the Spirit, and so forth. That accurately describes what tongues actually are and do. This other business of preaching in another language, or giving a sign to unbelievers who understand these are mythic creations. Tongues are common in religions, and it has zero to do with "true" versus "false" religion nonsense. It's all the same.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
is a documentary (once up for an Academy Award) available on Netfix disc or Instant Viewing that will either make you get down on your knees and thank the lord or make you cringe in disgust. Other than pointing out a few particulars, there's no commentary of any kind, leaving you free to make of it what you will.

I noted that the science book being used in the early part of the documentary, Exploring Creation with Physical Science, is a creationist text book. No surprise.


"Storyline

Jesus Camp follows several young children as they prepare to attend a summer camp where the kids will get their daily dose of evangelical Christianity. Becky Fischer works at the camp, which is named Kids on Fire. Through interviews with Fischer, the children, and others, Jesus Camp illustrates the unswerving belief of the faithful. A housewife and homeschooling mother tells her son that creationism has all the answers. Footage from inside the camp shows young children weeping and wailing as they promise to stop their sinning. Child after child is driven to tears. Juxtapose these scenes with clips from a more moderate Christian radio host (who is appalled by such tactics), and Jesus Camp seems to pose a clear question: are these children being brainwashed?"
source




.
I would disagree it allows you freedom to make of it what you will. The music they insert in the background of the scenes is pretty ominous and suggestive, which I found quite funny.
 

AnnaCzereda

Active Member
I saw the movie years ago after a bunch of Atheists on another forum advertised it as a horror. I admit I was a little bit disappointed, I've seen better ones. While people portrayed in this movie are certainly weird and silly, the subject on the whole is demonized, in my opinion. This is what Christians are, there are various denominations and some are more orthodox than others but in all of them there is some sort of indoctrination and worship. The Atheists may not like it but it is what it is.

Anyway, the most memorable scene from this movie was for me the one when the organizers of the camp were blessing and praying over their computers. Epic. I might try it too with my PC if there are any problems. It could work, who knows?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I saw the movie years ago after a bunch of Atheists on another forum advertised it as a horror. I admit I was a little bit disappointed, I've seen better ones. While people portrayed in this movie are certainly weird and silly, the subject on the whole is demonized, in my opinion. This is what Christians are, there are various denominations and some are more orthodox than others but in all of them there is some sort of indoctrination and worship. The Atheists may not like it but it is what it is.

Anyway, the most memorable scene from this movie was for me the one when the organizers of the camp were blessing and praying over their computers. Epic. I might try it too with my PC if there are any problems. It could work, who knows?

You find the indoctrination of innocent as not horrific?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I would disagree it allows you freedom to make of it what you will. The music they insert in the background of the scenes is pretty ominous and suggestive, which I found quite funny.

Just so you know, the creator was a Christian, but I think most Christians would still find this deplorable.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Just so you know, the creator was a Christian, but I think most Christians would still find this deplorable.
Sure, even without the music the scenes they show are pretty uncomfortable viewing. Still, the music takes it up a notch, and I don't know what kind of Christian the creator is, maybe he's a traditional who has an agenda against charismatics haha
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Sure, even without the music the scenes they show are pretty uncomfortable viewing. Still, the music takes it up a notch, and I don't know what kind of Christian the creator is, maybe he's a traditional who has an agenda against charismatics haha

Naw I just think that most Christians have the decency to not indoctorine kids to that degree.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Naw I just think that most Christians have the decency to not indoctorine kids to that degree.
It would have been nice to see the source footage, or ideally go to the camp itself, if I were in America. Just using the atmospheric music already tells me they're trying to sell it in a particular way.
 
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