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Jesus did not die on the Cross
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
You may read the following from Times of India to have an idea:
All across the Old Silk Route Turkey, Central Asia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir can be found vestiges of Hebrew language, culture, tribal customs, rituals, names of places, tribes, foods that clearly originated in ancient Israel.
Issa on the silk route
Vikram Zutshi
Issa on the silk route - The Times of India
Jesus went to India.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Sure. Anybody who does not believe that Jesus was a mythical construct would believe what I believe. This is reasonable, rational and factual.
Of course other could differ with me and believe otherwise.
Regards
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Israel has always been an ancient crossroads from East to West. It only makes sense that some culture would be carried away, such as with slaves, or merchants. None of this proves Jesus was in India.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Kindly see here-under probable route of travel of Jesus to India.
Al Islam - Jesus in India
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/jesus-in-india.jpg
Regards
outhouse
Atheistically
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Assyrian captivity of Israel
Unlike the Kingdom of Judah, which was able to return from its Babylonian Captivity, the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom never had a foreign edict granting permission to return and rebuild their homeland.
Assyrian captivity of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They were in exile looking for shelter for survival, so they did not have any slaves or merchants, in such poor condition.
Regards
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You don't need to dictate history to me. I'm well aware of it. I meant Israel as the modern, geographical area. It has always been a crossroads. Where there are crossroads, there is dissemination of culture.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus was sent by G-d to these tribes. Two of the 12 tribes lived in Jerusalem the rest did not return after exile, they were in those lands.
Jerusalem did not accept him, so Jesus went in search of the other 10 tribes, that is the reason Jesus' tomb was found empty after when he was delivered in near-dead position after Crucifixion.
Jesus found them and they accepted him.
Regards
outhouse
Atheistically
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552,571,582,591,623,633.
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [15]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:141] If you have received an injury, surely the disbelieving people have already received a similar injury. And such days We cause to alternate among men that they may be admonished, and that Allah may distinguish those who believe and may take witnesses from among you; and Allah loves not the unjust;
[3:142] And that Allah may purify those who believe, and destroy the disbelievers.
[3:143] Do you suppose that you will enter Heaven while Allah has not yet distinguished those of you that strive in the way of Allah and has not yet distinguished the steadfast?
[3:144] And you used to wish for this death before you met it; now you have seen it while you were actually looking for it.
[3:145] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
[3:146] And no soul can die except by Allahs leave a decree with a fixed term. And whoever desires the reward of the present world, We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the life to come, We will give him thereof; and We will surely reward the grateful.
[3:147] And many a Prophet there has been beside whom fought numerous companies of their followers. They slackened not for aught that befell them in the way of Allah, nor did they weaken, nor did they humiliate themselves before the enemy. And Allah loves the steadfast.
[3:148] And they uttered not a word except that they said: Our Lord, forgive us our errors and our excesses in our conduct, and make firm our steps and help us against the disbelieving people.
[3:149] So Allah gave them the reward of this world, as also an excellent reward of the next; and Allah loves those who do good.
[3:150] O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Please
Regard
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [15]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:141] If you have received an injury, surely the disbelieving people have already received a similar injury. And such days We cause to alternate among men that they may be admonished, and that Allah may distinguish those who believe and may take witnesses from among you; and Allah loves not the unjust;
[3:142] And that Allah may purify those who believe, and destroy the disbelievers.
[3:143] Do you suppose that you will enter Heaven while Allah has not yet distinguished those of you that strive in the way of Allah and has not yet distinguished the steadfast?
[3:144] And you used to wish for this death before you met it; now you have seen it while you were actually looking for it.
[3:145] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
[3:146] And no soul can die except by Allahs leave a decree with a fixed term. And whoever desires the reward of the present world, We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the life to come, We will give him thereof; and We will surely reward the grateful.
[3:147] And many a Prophet there has been beside whom fought numerous companies of their followers. They slackened not for aught that befell them in the way of Allah, nor did they weaken, nor did they humiliate themselves before the enemy. And Allah loves the steadfast.
[3:148] And they uttered not a word except that they said: Our Lord, forgive us our errors and our excesses in our conduct, and make firm our steps and help us against the disbelieving people.
[3:149] So Allah gave them the reward of this world, as also an excellent reward of the next; and Allah loves those who do good.
[3:150] O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Please
Regard
outhouse
Atheistically
Is worthless here for any aspect of the man Jesus.
Take your nonsense elsewhere, this has to do with history, and you refuse it.
It takes an adult intellect and willingness to learn, you refuse this
arthra
Baha'i
I hadn't noticed this thread previously and I was away on a trip...but I had a few comments to make..
As to Jesus not dying on the cross.. It would seem to me that the verse in the Qur'an that they did not crucify Him refers more to His Spirit than to His physical reality... and allow me to expand a little on that...
Recall surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157.... while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed
...also consider verse 158:
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Secondly...as to the historical evidence of Jesus I agree that there is little actual direct evidence but consider the following..
There would be little direct evidence for the following reasons..
Jesus was a wandering preacher Who taught mostly in the Galilee which was largely agrarian and Galileans were considered "country bumpkins" by the more literate in Judea.
Within about forty years of the time of Jesus Jerusalem was destroyed and there was a diaspora of people leaving Judea..this means historical records were far more likely to be destroyed or lost in the disruptive conditions.
While the above is true.. I think there is a case that could be made for a historical Jesus because of the scattered diverse references to Him in various sources... namely Coptic, Koine Greek and Jewish sources that opposed Him.
Finally, none of the pagan or Jewish references to Jesus claim He was non-existent... They may have opposed Him and His claims but they didn't claim He was non-existent.
As to Jesus not dying on the cross.. It would seem to me that the verse in the Qur'an that they did not crucify Him refers more to His Spirit than to His physical reality... and allow me to expand a little on that...
Recall surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157.... while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed
...also consider verse 158:
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Secondly...as to the historical evidence of Jesus I agree that there is little actual direct evidence but consider the following..
There would be little direct evidence for the following reasons..
Jesus was a wandering preacher Who taught mostly in the Galilee which was largely agrarian and Galileans were considered "country bumpkins" by the more literate in Judea.
Within about forty years of the time of Jesus Jerusalem was destroyed and there was a diaspora of people leaving Judea..this means historical records were far more likely to be destroyed or lost in the disruptive conditions.
While the above is true.. I think there is a case that could be made for a historical Jesus because of the scattered diverse references to Him in various sources... namely Coptic, Koine Greek and Jewish sources that opposed Him.
Finally, none of the pagan or Jewish references to Jesus claim He was non-existent... They may have opposed Him and His claims but they didn't claim He was non-existent.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I hadn't noticed this thread previously and I was away on a trip...but I had a few comments to make..
As to Jesus not dying on the cross.. It would seem to me that the verse in the Qur'an that they did not crucify Him refers more to His Spirit than to His physical reality... and allow me to expand a little on that...
Recall surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157.... while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed
...also consider verse 158:
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Secondly...as to the historical evidence of Jesus I agree that there is little actual direct evidence but consider the following..
There would be little direct evidence for the following reasons..
Jesus was a wandering preacher Who taught mostly in the Galilee which was largely agrarian and Galileans were considered "country bumpkins" by the more literate in Judea.
Within about forty years of the time of Jesus Jerusalem was destroyed and there was a diaspora of people leaving Judea..this means historical records were far more likely to be destroyed or lost in the disruptive conditions.
While the above is true.. I think there is a case that could be made for a historical Jesus because of the scattered diverse references to Him in various sources... namely Coptic, Koine Greek and Jewish sources that opposed Him.
Finally, none of the pagan or Jewish references to Jesus claim He was non-existent... They may have opposed Him and His claims but they didn't claim He was non-existent.
Quran the only secure and protected Revealed Recitation/Book in its original text in the original language revealed also confirms that Jesus did exist.
Regards
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It seems to me that a text with local origin, written in local language, with corroborating sources, less than 50 years following the event, is more reliable than a foreign text, written in a foreign language, by one person, over 600 years following the event.
It's pretty clear from all critical indications that Jesus was, in fact, crucified and died.
It's pretty clear from all critical indications that Jesus was, in fact, crucified and died.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I quote from NT-Bible, Jesus says:
John 10:15-17
…15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.…
John 10 Parallel Chapters
Matthew 15:23-26
The Faith of the Canaanite Woman
…23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"…
Matthew 15 Parallel Chapters
Regards
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Probably not a real good idea to argue something you know little about.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I have read OT-Bible and NT-Bible, both the Protestant-Bible and the Christian-Bible versions. One may point out as to where I am wrong.
Regards
Regards
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Reading" the bible isn't the same as studying the bible, and the theological reasoning and Tradition that produced it.
I've read the Koran, too. That doesn't make me an authority -- or even knowledgeable on the subject. You need to acquiesce to those who are an authority and do know.