1robin
Christian/Baptist
Every single relevant historical document agrees to it and all of them are pre-Muhammad. This is the worst argument, in a long sad line of arguments, that a Muslim can ever make. It is credibility suicide.
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Jesus did not die on the Cross
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
Every single relevant historical document agrees to it and all of them are pre-Muhammad. This is the worst argument, in a long sad line of arguments, that a Muslim can ever make. It is credibility suicide.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552
and #692.
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [20]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:191] In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day there are indeed Signs for men of understanding;
[3:192] Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and ponder over the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord, Thou hast not created this in vain; nay, Holy art Thou; save us, then, from the punishment of the Fire.
[3:193] Our Lord, whomsoever Thou causest to enter the Fire, him hast Thou surely disgraced. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.
[3:194] Our Lord, we have heard a Crier calling us unto faith, Believe ye in your Lord, and we have believed. Our Lord, forgive us, therefore, our errors and remove from us our evils, and in death number us with the righteous.
[3:195] Our Lord, give us what Thou hast promised to us through Thy Messengers; and disgrace us not on the Day of Resurrection. Surely, Thou breakest not Thy promise.
[3:196] So their Lord answered their prayers, saying, I will allow not the work of any worker from among you, whether male or female, to be lost. You are from one another. Those, therefore, who have emigrated, and have been driven out from their homes, and have been persecuted in My cause, and have fought and been killed, I will surely remove from them their evils and will cause them to enter Gardens through which streams flow a reward from Allah, and with Allah is the best of rewards.
[3:197] Let not the moving about of the disbelievers in the land deceive thee.
[3:198] It is a small and brief advantage, then Hell shall be their abode. What an evil place of rest!
[3:199] But those who fear their Lord shall have Gardens through which streams flow; therein shall they abide an entertainment from Allah. And that which is with Allah is still better for the righteous.
[3:200] And surely among the People of the Book there are some who believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to you and in what was sent down to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They barter not the Signs of Allah for a paltry price. It is these who shall have their reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is swift to take account.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Please
Regard
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [20]
The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:191] In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day there are indeed Signs for men of understanding;
[3:192] Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and ponder over the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord, Thou hast not created this in vain; nay, Holy art Thou; save us, then, from the punishment of the Fire.
[3:193] Our Lord, whomsoever Thou causest to enter the Fire, him hast Thou surely disgraced. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.
[3:194] Our Lord, we have heard a Crier calling us unto faith, Believe ye in your Lord, and we have believed. Our Lord, forgive us, therefore, our errors and remove from us our evils, and in death number us with the righteous.
[3:195] Our Lord, give us what Thou hast promised to us through Thy Messengers; and disgrace us not on the Day of Resurrection. Surely, Thou breakest not Thy promise.
[3:196] So their Lord answered their prayers, saying, I will allow not the work of any worker from among you, whether male or female, to be lost. You are from one another. Those, therefore, who have emigrated, and have been driven out from their homes, and have been persecuted in My cause, and have fought and been killed, I will surely remove from them their evils and will cause them to enter Gardens through which streams flow a reward from Allah, and with Allah is the best of rewards.
[3:197] Let not the moving about of the disbelievers in the land deceive thee.
[3:198] It is a small and brief advantage, then Hell shall be their abode. What an evil place of rest!
[3:199] But those who fear their Lord shall have Gardens through which streams flow; therein shall they abide an entertainment from Allah. And that which is with Allah is still better for the righteous.
[3:200] And surely among the People of the Book there are some who believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to you and in what was sent down to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They barter not the Signs of Allah for a paltry price. It is these who shall have their reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is swift to take account.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Please
Regard
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You keep spamming this post. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion. Nothing. At. All. Again: there is no NT evidence that Jesus did not die on the cross. You just keep digging your grave.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Not just spamming but also not acknowledging responses to it. I can hardly get anything but I don't agree out of them beyond the spamming stuff no one can apparently stop. Islam needs no critics if this is it's defenders.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross
12th Argument Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.
Matthew 27:19
18For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over. 19While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him a message, saying, "Have nothing to do with that righteous Man; for last night I suffered greatly in a dream because of Him." 20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.
Matthew 27:19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."
If Jesus life was not to be saved; why should G-d show that dream to her.
No physician certified Jesus' death on Cross.
The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.
Regards
12th Argument Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.
Matthew 27:19
18For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over. 19While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him a message, saying, "Have nothing to do with that righteous Man; for last night I suffered greatly in a dream because of Him." 20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.
Matthew 27:19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."
If Jesus life was not to be saved; why should G-d show that dream to her.
No physician certified Jesus' death on Cross.
The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.
Regards
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You have a lot of assumptions and empty claims that you have yet to substantiate. Get to it, man! Give us real proof instead of this candy-*** pseudo-"scholarship" crap.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Please stop posting new bad arguments and start taking care of the responses to your former bad arguments. I answered your post in mine #699 yet you ignored it. Why would I respond to new arguments for you to ignore? This is your last chance with me. You need to cut out this spamming stuff and start debating or I am done with you. This is just machining Islam look worse and it needs no help in that department.
outhouse
Atheistically
Its called PROSELYTIZING.
Something he has enjoyed doing on a daily basis here.
Maybe if enough people report this blatant failure to comply with forum rules, action will be taken.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Its called PROSELYTIZING.
Something he has enjoyed doing on a daily basis here.
Maybe if enough people report this blatant failure to comply with forum rules, action will be taken.
Well it is producing the opposite effect, if that is what he is doing. I never report anyone that is not just downright belligerent, so I will leave that to others.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Repeat: there is nothing in the gospels that say Jesus didn't die on the cross. Nothing. If you quoted from the gospels, you misquoted.
outhouse
Atheistically
Yes it frustrates the members with knowledge, who have something to contribute..
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Everybody is free to express himself fully here with reason and wisdom.
Regards
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross
12th Argument Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has given an interesting comments on Pilate's wife seeing a dream:
In addition to all this, there was another heavenly cause, namely, that when Pilate presided at his court, his wife sent word to him not to have anything to do with that righteous person (i.e., not to attempt to punish him with death), for, she said, she had had a dream that night, which had troubled her very much.7 So, this angel, whom the wife of Pilate saw in her dream, would assure us and all fair-minded people, with certainty, that God had never intended that Jesus should die on the Cross.
From the day of the creation of this world, never has it occurred that God should suggest to a person in a dream that a particular thing would happen in a certain way, and still that thing should fail to happen. For example, the gospel of Matthew says that an angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream and said, 'Arise and take the young child and the mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him'.8 Now, can anyone say that Jesus could be killed in Egypt?
Similarly the dream which the wife of Pilate dreamt was a part of God's design, and it could never be that this design should fail in its object; and just as the possibility of Jesus being put to death during the Egyptian journey was against a specific promise of God, so here it is unthinkable that the angel of Almighty God should appear to the wife of Pilate and should direct her to say that if Jesus died on the Cross it would not be a happy thing for her, and yet the angel's appearance should go in vain, and Jesus should be allowed to suffer death on the Cross. Is there any example of this in the world? None.
The pure conscience of all good men, when informed of the dream of Pilate's wife, will no doubt testify that it was a fact that the purpose of that dream was to lay the foundation for the rescue of Jesus. It is of course open to everybody to deny an out-and-out truth; out of prejudice born of his creed, he may refuse to accept it, but fairness would oblige us to believe that the dream of Pilate's wife is a piece of weighty evidence in support of Jesus' escape from the Cross.
The first in rank among the gospels, i.e., Matthew, has recorded this evidence. Although, therefore, the powerful evidence which I shall set out in this book invalidates the divinity of Jesus and the doctrine of Atonement, yet honesty and love of fairness require us not to be partial to a communal or customary creed on a question of fact.
From the day of the creation of man up till to-day the limited intellect of man has invested a thousand things with Divinity and Godhead, so much so that even cats and snakes have been worshipped; nevertheless wise people, through heaven's help, have continued to be saved from the evil of such polytheistic beliefs.
Jesus in India
A reasonable argument.
Isn't it?
Regards
12th Argument Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has given an interesting comments on Pilate's wife seeing a dream:
In addition to all this, there was another heavenly cause, namely, that when Pilate presided at his court, his wife sent word to him not to have anything to do with that righteous person (i.e., not to attempt to punish him with death), for, she said, she had had a dream that night, which had troubled her very much.7 So, this angel, whom the wife of Pilate saw in her dream, would assure us and all fair-minded people, with certainty, that God had never intended that Jesus should die on the Cross.
From the day of the creation of this world, never has it occurred that God should suggest to a person in a dream that a particular thing would happen in a certain way, and still that thing should fail to happen. For example, the gospel of Matthew says that an angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream and said, 'Arise and take the young child and the mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him'.8 Now, can anyone say that Jesus could be killed in Egypt?
Similarly the dream which the wife of Pilate dreamt was a part of God's design, and it could never be that this design should fail in its object; and just as the possibility of Jesus being put to death during the Egyptian journey was against a specific promise of God, so here it is unthinkable that the angel of Almighty God should appear to the wife of Pilate and should direct her to say that if Jesus died on the Cross it would not be a happy thing for her, and yet the angel's appearance should go in vain, and Jesus should be allowed to suffer death on the Cross. Is there any example of this in the world? None.
The pure conscience of all good men, when informed of the dream of Pilate's wife, will no doubt testify that it was a fact that the purpose of that dream was to lay the foundation for the rescue of Jesus. It is of course open to everybody to deny an out-and-out truth; out of prejudice born of his creed, he may refuse to accept it, but fairness would oblige us to believe that the dream of Pilate's wife is a piece of weighty evidence in support of Jesus' escape from the Cross.
The first in rank among the gospels, i.e., Matthew, has recorded this evidence. Although, therefore, the powerful evidence which I shall set out in this book invalidates the divinity of Jesus and the doctrine of Atonement, yet honesty and love of fairness require us not to be partial to a communal or customary creed on a question of fact.
From the day of the creation of man up till to-day the limited intellect of man has invested a thousand things with Divinity and Godhead, so much so that even cats and snakes have been worshipped; nevertheless wise people, through heaven's help, have continued to be saved from the evil of such polytheistic beliefs.
Jesus in India
A reasonable argument.
Isn't it?
Regards
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Your not posting reason and wisdom. Your copying and pasting the same thing over and over again. Not only that you will not addresses responses to them and will not answer questions when asked. This rinse and repeat stuff is not doing Islam any good.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I thing I quoted correctly and gave the link. If there is some mistake in the quote, please point it out.
You may verify it, please.
Regards
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Sure, but it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change Xianity. It doesn't change the beliefs. The 'person' Jesus is added to a Deity form, anyway. Man form Jesus who is crucified is still a 'man' or part man, regardless.
That aside, I think after the 'crucifixion' scenario, whatever happened, Jesus may have left to go teach elsewhere.
It was written that He 'ascended', ok great, that doesn't mean he left altogether!
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