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Jesus Empty tomb narratives

Why each author of Gospel had a different story to tell, about what was seen at the empty tomb

  • Because Bible texts became somewhat corrupted

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Because this event was not physical. It was a vision, each saw a different vision.

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Because authors of Bible failed to come up with a consistent story.

    Votes: 10 52.6%
  • Other... please explain.

    Votes: 8 42.1%

  • Total voters
    19

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Why would it be illogical to question that a woman had a baby without getting impregnated by a man? And it is "evident" that there was "direct" intervention of the Holy Spirit? And, it is an "established" fact? It is? But then God couldn't get a physical body to float off into space? And what was that thing about science and religion must agree or else religion will drift towards superstition?
Because, we should consider the possiblity of a human without father, since according to science human life on earth began without father and mother as in the beginning. Therefore possibility of starting a human life with only mother cannot be disproved. But, as regards to going up to sky, we don't have any example from science that ever happened. Jesus had to ride a plane to go up, and plus, there is no air for breathing at some point in space. The birth of Jesus without father is a miracle, but not in a sense that has to break the laws of universe or laws of physics. It would be just an extremely rare thing that could have happened. But, going up, without airplane, and breathing without air, is not possible scientifically. You have to believe, the Laws of science was broken for that to happen, which is illogical.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
BTW, the first time I heard of the Baha'i was at a Seals & Croft concert, whereas they had a presentation at the end.
I remember that group, I had all their 8 track tapes. :D
I can still hear the lyrics "from Constantinople to Adrianople to Akka the prison by the sea."

Wow, someone older than me... :) What did you convert back to Catholicism from and why did you convert back, if you don't mind my asking? I'm kind of nosy. ;)
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I do not consider that objective evidence unless it has been verified to exist in reality. Nothing in the Bible is objective evidence unless it had been verified to exist or to have existed.
It is not historical unless it has been verified by historians. Has any of that been verified by historians?

What is stated in prophecies is not objective evidence until it actually happens.
There is objective evidence for what is stated in prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, but Jews and Christians completely ignore that evidence.

The objective reality of the stories in the bible depend on lots of assumptions.
But there WAS a House of David for instance - something skeptics denied for
a long time. As for King David speaking with God, well that's subjective.
And the prophecies, long before Jesus, that the Jewish state would end when
with the Messiah did come true. And the prophecy that the Jews would return
"a second time" to Israel are coming true today. Prophecies about the return
of the Messiah are subjective.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And the prophecies, long before Jesus, that the Jewish state would end when with the Messiah did come true. And the prophecy that the Jews would return "a second time" to Israel are coming true today. Prophecies about the return of the Messiah are subjective.
Maybe some prophecies for the return of the Messiah are subjective, but some of them are objective. I believe that the prophecy for the Jews returning to their homeland has been completely fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

“The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.

In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.”
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

I believe that this happened in 1844: Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power. Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

Simply put, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment, not when a Jewish state was established. Thus at the hour of their return the “times of the Gentiles”was fulfilled.

So Jews returned to their homeland in 1844, but more Jews have returned to their homeland since that time, and then the Jewish state was established in 1948.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Maybe some prophecies for the return of the Messiah are subjective, but some of them are objective. I believe that the prophecy for the Jews returning to their homeland has been completely fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

“The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.

In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.” http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

I believe that this happened in 1844: Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power. Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

Simply put, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment, not when a Jewish state was established. Thus at the hour of their return the “times of the Gentiles”was fulfilled.

So Jews returned to their homeland in 1844, but more Jews have returned to their homeland since that time, and then the Jewish state was established in 1948.

IMO the steps to a new nation of Israel are many. Of super-significance was Herzl and the
1897 declaration on Zionism. There's no single point of significance concerning immigration
as it has been slow and steady. But one event must be considered - that of 1967 when the
city of Jerusalem was back in Jewish hands - this is the one Jesus mentioned.
The next event I suppose will be when ALL Jews are home again. This suggests a new era
of anti-Semitism. And the event after that will be the invasion of Magog - both these are
mentioned in Ezekiel.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wow, someone older than me... :) What did you convert back to Catholicism from and why did you convert back, if you don't mind my asking? I'm kind of nosy. ;)
It was a combination of factors, but the clincher was a series of "premonitions" [I prefer to call them "spiritual connections"] over 2+ years that involved an old girlfriend, who changed my life 50+ years ago, and my wife, both being very devout Italian Catholics who are simply the nicest people I have ever known. These premonitions were unlike anything I had ever experienced before and, as a matter of fact, I really didn't believe in them-- until they happened to me.

Also, being closer to home and known in my wife's church, there was more I could do there to help people out. I loved the Reform synagogue I had belonged to, and I do help over there as well periodically, but the half-hour drive at night reduced my ability to get there because of my eyesight that can't be corrected enough for night driving.

There's a bit more, but these were the two main factors.

BTW, thanks for asking, and what about your spiritual journey?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The next event I suppose will be when ALL Jews are home again.
Some Jews have told me that is what they believe has to happen before the Messiah returns, but I have never been able to find any verses that say that ALL Jews will return to Israel in their scriptures. For example, in the following verses, where does it say that ALL the Jews will be gathered back to their homeland? That is not even realistic, because some Jews are happy living in other countries such as the united States.

In chapter 11 the Book of Isaiah says:

11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

In chapter 29 the Book of Jeremiah says:

14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

In chapter 20 the Book of Ezekiel says:

41. With a pleasing savor I shall accept you when I take you out of the nations, and I shall gather you from the lands in which you were scattered, and I shall be hallowed through you before the eyes of the nations.
42. And you will know that I am the Lord when I bring you to the land of Israel, to the land that I lifted My hand to give to your forefathers.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem with "all nations" is that new nations keep appearing, ie North and South Sudan.
Our Old Testament and that of the Jews doesn't differ that much when it comes to the one
who will suffer in our stead, rise again and be satisfied. In the interlinear bible it says His
exploits will be recounted to generations yet born that "he has done this." Psalm 22. And the
interlinear Isaiah 53 says He shall pay the price for many with his life, but then shall see the
rewards of his suffering.

The Baha’i’s don’t doubt there were many prophecies that would apply to Jesus. However even the suffering servant from Isaiah is open to interpretation.

New nations that are formed from time to time are based on old nations who had the Gospel preached to them long ago.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And records show that one Diotrephes was its first Archbishop. This is most like the
same soul mentioned as standing up to John, and forming his own church.
I don't wish to attack the RCC. I have often said when it is gone (as it shall go) then
so too will Western civilization.
Without the Catholic Church, Christianity would have most likely died out long ago.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No problem. It's all embellished myth. Creation, Satan, the Flood, the Resurrection... but the prophecies are dead on and predicted Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? And, of course, the laws, those were right on exactly what God wanted the Israelites to do? No, somehow the stories, the laws, the prophecies, everything could have had some human embellishment.

But the reality of Judaism and Christianity is that the Scriptures of each were meant to be believed as the literal Word of God. Baha'is seem to be saying... "Yes, it is literally the Word of God, but is not to be taken literally." Which sounds nuts to me.
You are putting words in my mouth that I’ve never said. That is called a straw man argument.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No!!! I'm enjoying reading your posts. I don't understand how people in a religion that believe that now is the time for all people in all religions to come together in peace and unity can **** off so many people in the other religions? Especially Adrian. He goes to interfaith groups and things. Tony or Trailblazer, I'd understand. (Sorry, just kidding. You know I love you guys.)
Christian fundamentalism and its unwillingness to constructively engage with people of other faiths is nothing new. They are noteworthy for their absence in all genuine Interfaith dialogue.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The earliest Christians who knew Jesus and were around after his crucifixion were unlikely to have believed in a literal resurrection given it never happened.

No problem. It's all embellished myth. Creation, Satan, the Flood, the Resurrection... but the prophecies are dead on and predicted Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? And, of course, the laws, those were right on exactly what God wanted the Israelites to do? No, somehow the stories, the laws, the prophecies, everything could have had some human embellishment.

But the reality of Judaism and Christianity is that the Scriptures of each were meant to be believed as the literal Word of God. Baha'is seem to be saying... "Yes, it is literally the Word of God, but is not to be taken literally." Which sounds nuts to me.
You are putting words in my mouth that I’ve never said. That is called a straw man argument.
I meant that if the early Christians were "unlikely" to have believed in a literal resurrection, then no problem... I say if not literally true, then, for me, it is most likely embellish stories or myth. I never said that you said that. But, what exactly are you saying? You know I have a book with quotes from the early Christians. I don't remember any of them doubting a literal resurrection. Do you know of any? Even if they from Gnostic Christians. Let's see what they were saying.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I cite one thing in Scripture that I accept "literally" happened, and that makes me a Biblical literalist. LOL!

Christian fundamentalism and its unwillingness to constructively engage with people of other faiths is nothing new. They are noteworthy for their absence in all genuine Interfaith dialogue.
Are you categorizing Terry as a fundamentalist? He doesn't sound like a Fundy to me.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Because, we should consider the possiblity of a human without father, since according to science human life on earth began without father and mother as in the beginning. Therefore possibility of starting a human life with only mother cannot be disproved. But, as regards to going up to sky, we don't have any example from science that ever happened. Jesus had to ride a plane to go up, and plus, there is no air for breathing at some point in space. The birth of Jesus without father is a miracle, but not in a sense that has to break the laws of universe or laws of physics. It would be just an extremely rare thing that could have happened. But, going up, without airplane, and breathing without air, is not possible scientifically. You have to believe, the Laws of science was broken for that to happen, which is illogical.
The first lifeform that emerged, that was destined to become human was what? Did it have a father or a mother? The last stage of evolution, before man became man, did that lifeform have a mother and father? Have all humans since then had a mother and father? Except Jesus? If we are going to disbelieve the resurrection, I see no reason to believe the "Virgin" birth. The story is based off of one verse in Isaiah chapter 7 and is taken completely out of context. The chapter is not about a Messianic prophecy. Then only two gospel writers tell of the gospel and tell it different. Then there is supposedly a star that leads the Wise men to Bethlehem? No, if you don't want to believe it literally, then dump it all.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you categorizing Terry as a fundamentalist? He doesn't sound like a Fundy to me.

I started a new thread a couple of days back examining Christian fundamentalism.

Christian fundamentalism - What is it and is the term helpful?

Depending on how fundamentalism is considered several core beliefs include:
  • The inerrancy of the Bible
  • The literal nature of biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis.
  • The virgin birth of Christ
  • The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
  • The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I meant that if the early Christians were "unlikely" to have believed in a literal resurrection, then no problem... I say if not literally true, then, for me, it is most likely embellish stories or myth. I never said that you said that. But, what exactly are you saying? You know I have a book with quotes from the early Christians. I don't remember any of them doubting a literal resurrection. Do you know of any? Even if they from Gnostic Christians. Let's see what they were saying.

When I refer to the earliest Christians, I refer to the disciples of Christ who knew Him and were alive during His crucifixion and subsequent years. We have no known record from any of them that we can attribute authorship with certainty.

Of course early Christians such as Tertullian and Polycarp believed in the literal resurrection but they were around in the second century.

What early Christian writers did you have in mind?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It was a combination of factors, but the clincher was a series of "premonitions" [I prefer to call them "spiritual connections"] over 2+ years that involved an old girlfriend, who changed my life 50+ years ago, and my wife, both being very devout Italian Catholics who are simply the nicest people I have ever known. These premonitions were unlike anything I had ever experienced before and, as a matter of fact, I really didn't believe in them-- until they happened to me.

Also, being closer to home and known in my wife's church, there was more I could do there to help people out. I loved the Reform synagogue I had belonged to, and I do help over there as well periodically, but the half-hour drive at night reduced my ability to get there because of my eyesight that can't be corrected enough for night driving.

There's a bit more, but these were the two main factors.

BTW, thanks for asking, and what about your spiritual journey?
Thanks for sharing your story. I hoped I was not being too nosy but I took a chance. :)
So, were you raised with any religion or believing in God, or did you come to belief later in life?

My story is no doubt a lot different from yours. I never really has any premonitions or spiritual experiences per se, except for the time when i first read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh with serious intent and absolute desperation. That happened right after I had a life crisis about six years ago and I was at the brink of suicide. I had been at that brink many times before but this time was different because I had come back my religion after a long hiatus about a year and a half before that, so I was at a different place in my life. Before that when I was suicidal I had no hope... Anyhow, what happened was that I picked up that book called Gleanings and started to read it on the bus ride to work and it just hot me like a ton of bricks who God was and who Baha'u'llah was,and I stated crying and could not stop. That was the real beginning of my spiritual journey.

Mind you, I had been a Baha'i for about 43 years at that time but I was not engaged and I knew nothing about God because that is not why I joined the religion; I joined because I am an idealist so I was drawn to the teachings and the primary message of Baha'u'llah, the unity of mankind and world peace.
.
Anyhow, I started in the middle of my story, so now I am going back to the beginning. I like telling stories almost as much as I like hearing them... ;)

To try to make a long story short, my mother and father were raised as Christians, Greek Orthodox and Anglican, but they both dropped out of the Church long before their children were born, probably right after they married sometime in the 1940s. To not be a Christian in the United States was practically unheard of back in those days. So my brother and sister and I never saw a Bible or the inside of a Church and we never gave it a second thought.

Then when my brother was in his early 20s he got curious about religion so he read about all the great world religions,especially Christianity. As I recall he told me he read the Bible cover to cover five times. Then after all that he discovered the Baha'i Faith and read about it. I do not recall how long it was before he became a Baha'i, but it was in 1968. Then he told my sister and I about it in 1970 and we both read about it and became Baha'is shortly thereafter. About five years later he told my mother about it and she became a Baha'i, so that was the whole nuclear family because my father had died in 1964, before he ever heard of the Baha'i Faith. My father had one sister who was a confirmed atheist but all my mother's brothers and sisters were either Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox.

I said I was going to try to make a ling story short, but that has not worked out very well so far, so now i am going to try to be more concise and you can cask me any questions about the last part of my story if you want to. So after I became a Baha'i I had a lot of psychological problems. This was unrelated to the religion, but rather owing to the difficult childhood I had, so I was not very active in the religion for very long and eventually I dropped out of activities. I was in "recovery" for a long time, but I was also in college for over 15 years so I was very busy, However, I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah, although I was not tight with God at all because I was never close to God in the first place,and I was angry at Him for my suffering for about 10 years before I returned to the religion..

The last part of this story starts in January 2013 when I decided to try To engage with my religion again and try to resolve my issues with God, and that is when I first came to forums. First In I started posting in a Baha'i forum and after that I branched out to other forums. That is when I started learning about Christianity and to a lesser extent about Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. About a year after that I started my own forum but after that I started posting on a forum that was primarily nonbelievers and that became my primary forum until I left about two and a half years ago and came to this forum. I recently returned to that atheist forum so now I am here and there. I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God;s existence for one minute.

The last seven years has been quite a spiritual journey, and I think I have grown more in these years than in all the previous years put together, in spite of all the counseling and support groups I attended during the previous years. I believe it was my willingness to give my religion and God another chance as well as the participation in forums that helped me grow spiritually. I am quite an introvert so this gives me an opportunity to socialize without going out. Let me put it this way: My ordinary lifestyle is sheltering in place, so now everyone has experienced the way I normally live. :D

I sure hope I did not bore you to tears. :(
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Some Jews have told me that is what they believe has to happen before the Messiah returns, but I have never been able to find any verses that say that ALL Jews will return to Israel in their scriptures. For example, in the following verses, where does it say that ALL the Jews will be gathered back to their homeland? That is not even realistic, because some Jews are happy living in other countries such as the united States.

In chapter 11 the Book of Isaiah says:

11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

In chapter 29 the Book of Jeremiah says:

14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

In chapter 20 the Book of Ezekiel says:

41. With a pleasing savor I shall accept you when I take you out of the nations, and I shall gather you from the lands in which you were scattered, and I shall be hallowed through you before the eyes of the nations.
42. And you will know that I am the Lord when I bring you to the land of Israel, to the land that I lifted My hand to give to your forefathers.

A good question. I was surprised when I looked this up that I couldn't find the verse "all of them" concerning the returned Israel.
That's frustrating. But I did find this, "not leaving any of them behind after their exile among the nations." in Ezekiel 39.
The issue with Jews in Western countries is the RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM. This could be the final shove to force all Jews back
to Israel, whether they want to or not, whether they see themselves as Jews or not.
 
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