Jesus' Final Words

[Christ Michael]

Anders writes:

CM,

you wrote

"When the Master finally breathed his last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris."

This would be very interesting, if you could prove it.

Math. mentions nobody present at the cross at Jesus's death by name.
Neither does Mark.
Or Luke.
The synoptics mention some people watching from a distance, but certainly not "at the foot of his cross."
John mentions only "his mother, and ... the disciple ... whom he loved" plus two Marys.

If you find no better proof than "an anthology of 196 'papers' indited [i.e., dictated] between 1928 and 1935 by superhuman personalities.... The humans into whose hands the papers were delivered are now deceased. The means by which the papers were materialized was unique and is unknown to any living person." (The Urantia Book), I refuse to believe a single word of what you write.

According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). Herod died in March of 4 B.C., so Jesus had to have been born BEFORE that time.


But . . .


According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This census took place in 6 AD and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death.



After Jesus was born where did Mary, Jesus and Joseph go?
According to Matthew, Jesus was born in a house in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:11) They immediately left in a panic to Egypt because an angel told them that Herod was going to try to kill Jesus. (Matthew 2:13) Afterwards, they are going to return to Bethlehem, but decide to go to Nazareth instead to avoid danger. (Matthew 2:22-23)


But . . .


According to Luke, Mary and Joseph were from Nazareth and went to Bethlehem only for a census. (Luke 2:4). Instead of being born in a house, Jesus was born in a manger because there was no room in an Inn. (Luke 2:7). After the birth, they waited only for Mary to go through ritual purification, whereupon they went to Jerusalem to sacrifice two birds. (Luke 2:22-24). After that, they went immediately home to Nazareth. (Luke 2:39)


Who was Joseph's father?
It was important to Luke and Matthew to establish that Jesus' bloodline went to King David, so that He would fulfill prophesy. Of course, since Joseph was not Jesus' father, any genealogy starting with Joseph seems somewhat pointless, but this didn't stop our imaginative authors. The only problem is: their family trees don't correspond.

"And JACOB begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus." (Matthew 1:16)


But . . .

"And Jesus being the son of Joseph, which was the son of HELI." (Luke 3:23)



Where was the "Sermon on the Mount" held?
While we commonly think of the sermon being held on a mountain (from its name alone), truly the New Testament is better than Conde Nast when it comes to choosing locations!

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...." (Matthew 5:1-2)


But . . .

"And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..." (Luke 6:17-20)



What were Jesus' last words on the cross before He died?
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Psalm 22:1] ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." (Matt. 27:46-50)


But . . .

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46)


But . . .

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)



On the third day after Jesus' death, who first came to the tomb?
Mary Magdalene alone (John 20:1)

But . . .

Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matt. 28:1)

But . . .

Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome (Mark 16:1)

But . . .

Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, the mother of James, and other women (Luke 24:10)


What happened to Judas?
Matthew 27:5 states that he threw down his silver, ran from the temple, and hanged himself.


But . . .


Acts 1:16-19 states, however, that he bought some land with his money, and that he had a fall, causing him "to burst open in the middle" so that his "bowels gushed out. And it became known to all of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akaldama, that is, Field of Blood."



How are we saved?
"For by grace are we saved through faith...not of works" EPH 2:8-9.


But . . .

"...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and
they were judged every man according to their works" REV 20:13.


But . . .

"Ye see then that by works a man is justified, not by faith only. For as
the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead
also" JAMES 2:26


When giving His disciples tips on how to accessorize their outfits:
When Jesus summons the twelve disciples to send them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, he lists the things the disciples should not take with them.

In Matthew 10:9-10 and Luke 9:3-5, a staff is included in the list of things not to take.

But . . .

In contradiction to Matthew and Luke, Mark 6:8 makes a specific exception - the disciples may take a staff.



Paul and his fabulous trip to Jerusalem:
Paul denies that he was involved in the persecution of Christians in Jerusalem. In fact, he claimed that it was three years after his conversion before he traveled to Jerusalem, at which point he met only Cephas and James, "and not any other apostles" (GAL 1:18-19)

But . . .

Luke, who wrote Acts, not only has Paul engaged in persecution in Judea, he has Paul going to Jerusalem immediately after his conversion, and there meeting all the apostles (ACTS 9:27).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[original post by Ball]


I am soooo confused !!! Who and what should I believe ???



Cheers

 

[anders]

Personally, I don't believe that the Bible is a history book or science manual. It can't be interpreted "literally", whatever that may mean. What matter is the message behind he words. The message of every religion I respect is something like "Be good to your fellow beings." I favour those making it "Be good to yourself, as long as you don't harm others."

 

[Lightkeeper]

anders writes:

CM,

you wrote

"When the Master finally breathed his last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris."

This would be very interesting, if you could prove it.

Math. mentions nobody present at the cross at Jesus's death by name.
Neither does Mark.
Or Luke.
The synoptics mention some people watching from a distance, but certainly not "at the foot of his cross."
John mentions only "his mother, and ... the disciple ... whom he loved" plus two Marys.

If you find no better proof than "an anthology of 196 'papers' indited [i.e., dictated] between 1928 and 1935 by superhuman personalities.... The humans into whose hands the papers were delivered are now deceased. The means by which the papers were materialized was unique and is unknown to any living person." (The Urantia Book), I refuse to believe a single word of what you write.

Don't lose any sleep over it !! I, personally, don't believe in "talking snakes and donkeys" but that doesn't stop me from believing in Jesus Christ. God bless !!!



Cheers

***MOD POST***

This forum is for learning and not debating. Any debate about the book of Urantia should take place in a debate forum.

 

[Linus]

New guy here with a few thoughts.

I am by no means an expert on the Bible, but there are many things we can discover through simple investigation of God's word. This is one of them.

The gospels were written by four different people watching and listenening to the same person for a duration of a few hours. Look at it realistically. Wouldn't you expect differences in what each remembers Jesus saying? Look at the Ghettysburg address by Abraham Lincoln. Obviously this is a bit of a strech in that none of us were alive during that speech, but all of us have heard it reproduced or recreated. Anyway, off the top of your head, what do you remember of that speech? I, personally, Always think of, "Four-score and seven years ago..." Maybe someone else remembers something else at a different point in the speech. I think its is reasonable to say that the same can apply to the four Gospels. With that in mind, let's take a look at what is said regarding Jesus' last words

Mtthew 27:46-About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

So, at the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus said, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani."

Mark 15:34-And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Same words said at the same time.

In the verses following the above quote, Jesus is offered some sour wine (acording to the NKJV) to drink then cries out again with a loud voice.

Luke 23:44-It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

According to this verse, it was, at the earliest, THE SIXTH HOUR when Jesus said "Father, into your hand I commit my spirit." Different words as above, but spoken at a different time. It doesnt say that at the ninth hour he said the same words as above.

John 19:30- When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Remeber the sour wine and crying out again with a loud voice? It says here that after he had recieved the drink Jesus bowed his head and gave up his spirit (he died).

Looks accurate enough to me. I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the authors here are simply quoting different things Jesus said during his crucifixion. Is it posible to assume that they simply could not remember what else he said? I believe it is. They were human after all. Court cases have differing witness statements all the time. Its just a matter of ivestigation. I hope this makes sense and helps to clarify a little.

 

[Spooner]

Some of you should like this.

http://www.yaih.com/otvsnt.html


Spooner

 

[anders]

Spooner,

I liked the quotes Deut 12:31 and Deut 24:16. The link, however, concerns Jews not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, so the bearing on this topic is nil.

I strongly object to the statement on the linked page that "Major Kings are Anointed by X Prostitutes", referring to Mary of Magdala. As I have already remarked in another topic, in all the Bible instances where she is mentioned, there is not the slightest hint of a trace of a suspicion that she ever acted in any other way than in utmost decency.

In the section on Inheritance, my view is that it can only be a positive thing that the Christian Messiah doesn't demand genital mutilation of his male followers.

That's enough of off topic and debate on other things than the last words of Jesus.

 

[harold e. rice]

Linus wrote;

I am by no means an expert on the Bible, but there are many things we can discover through simple investigation of God's word. This is one of them.

The gospels were written by four different people watching and listenening to the same person for a duration of a few hours.

====================================================

Mark and Luke definitely weren't eyewitnesses to the death of Jesus and it's quite possible the neither was Matthews or John.

 

[harold e. rice]

Linus wrote;

I am by no means an expert on the Bible, but there are many things we can discover through simple investigation of God's word. This is one of them.

The gospels were written by four different people watching and listenening to the same person for a duration of a few hours.

====================================================

Mark and Luke definitely weren't eyewitnesses to the death of Jesus and it's quite possible the neither was Matthews or John.

 

[Spooner]

Spooner,



I strongly object to the statement on the linked page that "Major Kings are Anointed by X Prostitutes", referring to Mary of Magdala. As I have already remarked in another topic, in all the Bible instances where she is mentioned, there is not the slightest hint of a trace of a suspicion that she ever acted in any other way than in utmost decency.

Hi Anders,

Do you think a person who has seven demons acts in utmost decency?

Luke 8:1-2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities--Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

Spooner

 

[anders]

Her behaviour is not described, so I still vote for her decency.

If she had behaved in an unacceptable way, the demons would have to be blamed, not herself.

 

[Spooner]

Her behaviour is not described, so I still vote for her decency.

If she had behaved in an unacceptable way, the demons would have to be blamed, not herself.

there is not the slightest hint of a trace of a suspicion that she ever acted in any other way than in utmost decency.

Is there a slightest hint of a trace of a suspicion that she in fact did act in other ways than in utmost decency, no matter if the devil was to blame?

Spooner

 

[anders]

Read the verses where she is mentioned. There is no mentioning of her behaviour. Perhaps she just held some views on religion that were unacceptable to the community and had to be interpreted as being non-standard. So, my answer is NO. I don't understand how the theory that she was a prostitute was invented. The Bible would not have been afraid of telling us if this was the case. Judah is, for example, not criticised for having bought the services of what he thought was a harlot (Gen. 38 ), but there still are no hints of any behaviour, acceptable or not, on Mary's part.

 

[Spooner]

Read the verses where she is mentioned. There is no mentioning of her behaviour. Perhaps she just held some views on religion that were unacceptable to the community and had to be interpreted as being non-standard. So, my answer is NO.

I see, when anyone is possessed with 7 evil spirits, some of them can never ever act in any other way than in utmost decency. Is this correct?

So how did the people know she had evil spirits if there was not the slightest hint of a trace of a suspicion that she ever acted in any other way than in utmost decency?

Spooner

 

[harold e. rice]

Her behaviour is not described, so I still vote for her decency.

If she had behaved in an unacceptable way, the demons would have to be blamed, not herself.

The women described in the bible that may have been a prostitute was a different person than Mary Magdalene. She was called the woman of NAIN.

Lu 7:11
And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.

Lu 7:37
And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

Lu 7:38
And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Lu 7:39
Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner
of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

The eighth chapter, which has nothing to do with the subject matter of the seventh chapter, mentions Mary Magdalene.

Lu 8:1
And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Lu 8:2
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
Lu 8:3
And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

It was the Catholic Church that started the rumor that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. It was because she played a very important role in the story of Jesus’ ministry and the Catholic maintained a condescending attitude towards women.
Remember she was the one, according to the story that saw Jesus first after the alleged resurrection and was given the message to deliver to his disciples. They have recently reversed the rumor and have made a public declaration that the woman in the bible story was the woman of Nain not Mary.