Jesus - First Born?

[amazing grace]

Even in His pre human life the Son of God was choosing to obey His Father. He chose to come to earth and not grasp equality by disobeying. That would have been the only way to either cling to or try to grab equality with God.

I disagree with the concept of a pre-human life. I have asked before but don't recall the answer: What was Jesus as a pre human? In what manner did he choose to obey God in this "pre human" existence? When did he "chose" to come to earth? I thought it was God's decision to send him?

That also applies to the Son of God when He became a man. He had to choose to do good and not to do what His carnal side was telling Him to do.
The Father also chooses to be good or it is not truly being good. But the Father is not tempted to do the carnal things that we are tempted to do of course. It was His Son who was tempted by those things and showed, by His choices, that He was truly like His Father.

God doesn't have to make a choice to be good - He is good. Jesus is like God in that he truly and totally represented God by "always doing the will of Him who sent him". (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38)

The Son's temptations also seem to go beyond the normal things that we might be tempted to do according to His temptations in the desert.
He was tempted to use His Divine powers to feed Himself.
He was tempted to show who He was.
He was tempted to win the war for earth and humanity the easy way.
Same principles but different temptations.
Why do you insist that Jesus must be like Adam and not have a sin nature? Why is that and what exactly is this sin nature and does it make it harder for humans to be sinless?

Yes, the recorded temptations in scripture were specifically directed to Jesus. We do not know all the temptations that Jesus faced throughout his life since those are not recorded but we do have scripture that says "one who in every respect has been tempted as we are".
Because Jesus is referred to the "Last Adam". Adam and Jesus are two men who are used in parallelism of how the judgment of sin and death entered the world and how one is released from that judgment of sin and death - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Adam was a typos (a pattern) of the one who was to come. IOW, Adam was created a perfect human being UNTIL he sinned - Jesus was created a perfect human being and remained without sin - a Lamb without blemish.
Bottom line the sin nature inherit in all men after Adam is rebellion and stubbornness toward God, to be predisposed (liable or inclined to a specific attitude, action, or condition) to sin. God did not create man nor intend for man to be dominated by this nature but as a result of Adam's sin, corruption happened within God's perfect creation - it went from a state of perfection and righteousness to a state of "sin" and would require a process of redemption since all mankind is now "dead in trespasses and sin". For those of us who are born again - we are no longer under the condemnation (judgment) of sin and death and what did God do to release us from that condemnation (judgment)? - "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, be condemned sin in the flesh." Of course, it is still a choice either to "walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit". All men after Adam are considered "dead in trespasses and sin" and need a redeemer.

Yes I don't know how those 2 smileys with the word "confused" got there. I thought I just put one smiley and no "confused".
But yes, the Son of God is a copy of God imo. That is what a son is, but with the Son of God it has been that way from eternity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but don't ask me to explain that or what timelessness is.
Being a copy does not mean that His nature is not exactly the same as His Father's however.
So when Hebrews says that the Son has the exact imprint of God's nature, it means that the Son is truly good for a start, perfectly moral. This means that Jesus was good and perfectly moral.
So if you think that Jesus was not able to sin, then you are probably right, and this would apply for your Jesus also, whom is exactly like His Father also.
But as I said, being good is a matter of choice even for the Father, or it means nothing.

Yes, the Son of God is a copy of God in that he, the Son, totally reflected God, his Father. An image or copy, no matter how perfectly it reflects the original thing, is not identical to the original. A penny has the exact imprint of Lincoln but the penny is not Lincoln. Jesus is the exact imprint of God and totally reflects God's nature; God's innate and essential qualities. If Jesus didn't have a true choice to sin, then Jesus was not truly tempted. God does not have to choose to be good!! God is inherently good.

God is spirit, the creator. Humans are both spirit and fleshly, and created.
So God, a spirit, can become joined to a fleshly body and be both God and a man, the creator who stepped into creation by being born joined to a body.
The Son did this, and being a man meant that He became a servant to His Father and His Father became His God.
But the Son is still the same Divine being and is also fully human. And not using His Godly powers, or turning them over to the care of His Father or whatever He did, meant that He was no different to us except in who He was as the Divine Man.

Yep, God is spirit, the Creator who did not become one of His created being. Humans - Adam was created, Jesus was created - the first and last Adam's. Each and every human after Adam were created through the act of procreation between a male and a female - that process was created by God but the child was created by the parents. Humans have both a spirit (that which animates the body) and flesh but they have to be born again to have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, i.e. to be IN Christ. In your reasoning when we are united with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, i.e. born again - we are both God and man.
It is totally against the intrinsic value of God to become a man, one of His created beings - wouldn't that be exchanging the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man . . . . .

Well the story says that Eve wanted to gain wisdom and so be like God in that respect (according to the snake), but I doubt that either of them thought they would be equal to God by knowing good and evil.
And I also doubt that your Jesus on earth thought that he would be equal to God by disobeying God.
The only time He might have been able to either show His equality or take it was in a pre existence where He could refuse to become a human and Messiah.
But He is like His Father and so of course did not choose that path.

I'll stick with what the scripture says - "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. . . . when the woman saw . . .that the tree was to be desired to make one wise (like God) she took of its fruit and ate . . . Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."
Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God, Christ, the Last Adam, "emptied himself" of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the word and will of God. He lived by "It is written" and the commands of God, his Father. He trusted God and became obedient, even to a shameful death on a cross.

 

[Brian2]

I understand that conception takes place "normally" with sperm from the Father fertilizing the egg of the mother and a zygote (a fertilized ovum) results - then between the 2nd to 8th week it is termed a fetus. Now we know that was not the process for Jesus or else he would have inherited the "sin nature" passed through by man so how did conception occur with Jesus? Poof - God gave him life? Or did God miraculously supply what was needed for Mary to conceive? IOW, I believe it was the power of God that caused Mary to conceive, not a pre-existent God the Son

If we are talking specifics, we have to guess, but Heb 10:5 says God prepared a body for Jesus and that may have required the appropriate sperm with the appropriate DNA to fertilise an egg from Mary. Mary had to contribute the egg or Jesus would not be a descendant of David (and of course the DNA of the sperm may be that of David, who knows). So with Mary as a parent, Jesus had this mysterious "sin nature" unless you think that can only come from the man.
So what is the sin nature and why do you insist Jesus did not have it and had to be like Adam in that respect.
Jesus was a man, like us, and did not have to be like Adam without the "sin nature" imo.

What exactly do you mean by "God nature"? I believe Jesus "himself suffered when tempted" (Heb. 2:18) so it was not easy.
If Jesus had a "fully divine side" that equipped him to avoid temptation, then he was not tempted in every respect as we are. (Heb. 4:15) And if he could not have actually given into temptation, then his "temptation" was not genuine nor a real test to his character. Heb. 5:8, 9 clearly says Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. Being made perfect, he became the source of salvation all who obey him. . . Jesus had to go through a process of purification and trial before he was "made perfect". He did not have some intrinsic "divine nature" derived from his "incarnation" independently of how he lived and behaved.

By God nature I mean that He is exactly like His Father in His very essence. His Father is love and so Jesus is love. etc.
Jesus divine side equiped Him to overcome temptation but not to avoid temptation. Jesus with Divine nature had to choose to do what is right, it was not automatic. One side of Him was saying do X and the other side saying do Y, and the immoral path of course had carnal pleasures to it and the moral path entailed suffering. God cannot be tempted to do evil and neither could Jesus, but tempted He could be. I don't know why people think that anyone could come along and be sinless when it is only God who is good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the one who is exactly like Him.
The choosing of the moral path is overcoming the world, a man being tempted and overcoming from the very beginning. He did not have to be made perfect in any way except to have His body changed to the immortal and incorruptible body of the resurrection. He was already perfect in spirit.

All I can say is: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:52) Doesn't say "Jesus's "human side" increased in wisdom while his "divine side" had all wisdom".

OK, and that's fair enough. Wisdom can mean just knowledge of course. And God would have been more pleased with Him as He grew and continued to follow His Divine nature and not sin.
Jesus did not need to be purified in any way and any testing was just living life and continuing to be the Lamb of God without blemish.

Was Elizabeth expecting an "incarnate God" to be born of Mary? Or her Lord, the coming Messiah?

ProbablyElizabeth was expecting the Lord, the coming Messiah.
Nevertheless the coming Messiah was the Son of God through whom God made the world (Heb 1)
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
It was the Son through whom God created the world, (past tense) not some strange concept, God's Word, His plans. If anything, this plan was already God's Son in the beginning according to Heb 1:2, John 1:1-3, Col 1:15,16 etc.

Yep, whatever was needed for Mary to conceive was created and Mary became pregnant with Jesus - therefore Jesus was created.
God did not "step into creation". God did not become one of his created beings, i.e. a man.
I believe scripture records when Jesus received the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit, at his baptism when he was anointed by God to empower him for his ministry.

The egg came from Mary, so that Jesus could be descended from David. So Jesus was not created, but was conceived.
The Son through whom everything was created (and so cannot have been created Himself) stepped into creation by becoming a man with a body made of created material.
Jesus received the Holy Spirit to empower His ministry, yes. He did not use Divine powers but relied on God for all things, direction, words, power for miracles etc.

I believe what you responded to here were actually questions: Jesus was only tempted in his flesh but God overcame the temptation.???

Because He had the exact nature of His Father, He was good and able to overcome temptation.

Jesus was tempted but since he was God, he overcame the temptations but yet God cannot be tempted???

The Son of God/man, with a Divine spirit and a carnal body was able to be tempted through the weakness of the body and able to overcome the temptations through the Divine nature that was His.

In what way could that be an example for us on how to walk in obedience and trust in God - Jesus accomplished this because he was God?
All humanity faces temptation without the advantage of being "100% God and 100% man"! In fact, if Jesus were "God" to say that he was able to resist temptation is to say nothing about him at all! Where is the genuine temptation and the test of his moral character - he's God!

The lack of genuine temptation is in your head and the overcoming of temptation through His weak human nature required choice and moral fortitude.

Why is it that no one can see that the more Jesus's identity is pushed toward "deity" the less praiseworthy and commendable his accomplishments become because his works become that of a "God-man" for whom nothing is particularly difficult.

It does not really matter how much it is pushed toward deity, either He was Divine/Deity or not.
And we already know that Jesus lived dependant of His Father and was empowered by the Holy Spirit to do miracles, so that part is no problem really, it is just His overcoming of evil, His sinlessness, which is the real problem. BUT really since His nature is exactly like that of His Father (Hen 1) iow He was good, just as His Father is,,,,,, that problem of His overcoming carnal temptation should exist for you no matter who you see Jesus as having been. If He is perfectly good, He is perfectly good, and being good should be easier for Him than for us, and in fact that is why He was sent, because He was able to accomplish that job and die for us as the spotless Lamb.
And really, being tempted is just what happens to anyone with a carnal nature even if they also have a divine nature. As Jesus said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". But with Jesus the flesh was week and the spirit was willing and able to overcome the world and the flesh.
Have you got any Bible quotes about Jesus being an example of overcoming temptation for us that we could follow?
I remember Paul saying to follow his (Paul's) example but am not sure Jesus is given as our example in that respect.
Jesus came to, yes, overcome temptation, be the spotless lamb, but we are changed by the Spirit into the image of Jesus from glory to glory.

In everything Jesus said and accomplished, he gave credit to God, his Father, the one true God.

Yes Jesus nature comes from His Father who begat Him.
But are you saying that God was good for your variety of Jesus, and that Jesus did not need to do it himself, that he truly could not be the spotless Lamb without the strength of God overcoming temptation of Him?
That would be a good example for us to turn to Him in times of temptation but is it true that Jesus was not able to overcome the world and the flesh by Himself?
He has overcome, and we rely on Him and His righteousness and His work to save us. And we know He overcame and know we are being transformed to be like Him and so keep heading to that goal.

Why not? What does a mirror do but reflect an image and that is exactly what Jesus did - he reflected God's glory, he reflected God's goodness and he reflected God's character.

And yes, Jesus reflects God because He is the Son who is the perfect image of His Father. The qualities of the Father are in Him and that is why He is the radiance of the glory of God and how He reflects God. Some people use that word "reflect" as a way of saying that the Son was nothing and was not really as good as His Father etc.

I don't know but whenever I submitted to my father, it sure wasn't because he was my equal!
Yes, God knows He is the Father, the one true God and Jesus knows he is the Son and as such lived in obedience and submission to his Father, the one true God.

Jesus submits out of love for His Father imo. I did not say it was because He was equal.
But this knowing of each other is from eternity and continues into eternity.

"Within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - sounds like multiple personality disorder to me

No that would be Oneness Pentecostalism.

I believe I was addressing the temptations 1) I don't believe the temptations had to do with pride and 2) Jesus never said John 14:30 in relation to the temptations. It was the fact that Jesus isn't addressed as "Son of Man" when Satan tempted him but as "Son of God".

You said: I believe Jesus was addressed with his title "Son of God" when he faced Satan and the Jesus the Son of God overcame those temptations. (Satan did not address Jesus with his title "Son of Man") and if God overcame those temptations then Jesus didn't overcome anything . . . . God did!
Where is the logic in anything in anything put forth here?
So we agree that Jesus, the Son of God (the one who is perfectly good, just like His Father) overcame the temptations. It was not God in Him who did it but it was that He was able as the Son of His Father, God, iow the Son of God.

 

[Soapy]

This is a man instituted doctrine.

This is so true but will be denied by Trinitarians who will claim it is god-inspired… but which God? What is his name?

Regardless, the [man instituted doctrine] states something to this effect: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each without a beginning has existed for an eternity, not created, and equal. In other words, each is neither greater nor lesser than the other.

And yes, you clearly recognise, in the rest of your post, that Jesus says no such thing. Jesus never ever claimed equality with God nor can there be such a thing as ‘Equality with God’ especially as God himself says: ‘Beside me there is no God’.

Witness thought, the misuse of understanding in the use of language used by Trinitarians:

• Jesus, they say, IS GOD
• but Jesus is ONE IN GOD
• and Jesus is EQUALLY a flesh and blood/bone man of humanity

But GOD has no part in a flesh and blood/bone humanity.

What Trinitarians do is to separate Jesus into two persons and call him ‘GOD’ if he does great deeds, EVEN THOUGH Jesus declares that the deeds are ‘BECAUSE OF THE FATHER WORKING IN ME’, and call him ‘a man’ when he displays failings of a all knowing, all powerful, everywhere God: note that:

• Prior to his resurrection Jesus could only be in one place at any one time
• Jesus had to go away in order for the Spirit of God to come and be with believers eternally
• Jesus GIVES OF WHAT IS HIS to the Spirit of God (whom trinity says IS ALMIGHTY GOD!!? Think about how impossible that is!))
• Jesus says he will be with believers eternally BECAUSE that presence will be by means of the Spirit of God which THE FATHER has given them as A GIFT: ‘Wait in Jerusalem until you receive the gift from the Father whom I will send in my name’ However, it is more proper to say that Jesus DELIVERED the gift that the Father sent to his people (The postman who delivers the gift from your absent Father IS NOT THE OWNER OF THE GIFT your Father sent you!!)

 

[Soapy]

I disagree with the concept of a pre-human life. I have asked before but don't recall the answer: What was Jesus as a pre human? In what manner did he choose to obey God in this "pre human" existence? When did he "chose" to come to earth? I thought it was God's decision to send him?

God doesn't have to make a choice to be good - He is good. Jesus is like God in that he truly and totally represented God by "always doing the will of Him who sent him". (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38)

Yes, the recorded temptations in scripture were specifically directed to Jesus. We do not know all the temptations that Jesus faced throughout his life since those are not recorded but we do have scripture that says "one who in every respect has been tempted as we are".
Because Jesus is referred to the "Last Adam". Adam and Jesus are two men who are used in parallelism of how the judgment of sin and death entered the world and how one is released from that judgment of sin and death - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Adam was a typos (a pattern) of the one who was to come. IOW, Adam was created a perfect human being UNTIL he sinned - Jesus was created a perfect human being and remained without sin - a Lamb without blemish.
Bottom line the sin nature inherit in all men after Adam is rebellion and stubbornness toward God, to be predisposed (liable or inclined to a specific attitude, action, or condition) to sin. God did not create man nor intend for man to be dominated by this nature but as a result of Adam's sin, corruption happened within God's perfect creation - it went from a state of perfection and righteousness to a state of "sin" and would require a process of redemption since all mankind is now "dead in trespasses and sin". For those of us who are born again - we are no longer under the condemnation (judgment) of sin and death and what did God do to release us from that condemnation (judgment)? - "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, be condemned sin in the flesh." Of course, it is still a choice either to "walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit". All men after Adam are considered "dead in trespasses and sin" and need a redeemer.

Yes, the Son of God is a copy of God in that he, the Son, totally reflected God, his Father. An image or copy, no matter how perfectly it reflects the original thing, is not identical to the original. A penny has the exact imprint of Lincoln but the penny is not Lincoln. Jesus is the exact imprint of God and totally reflects God's nature; God's innate and essential qualities. If Jesus didn't have a true choice to sin, then Jesus was not truly tempted. God does not have to choose to be good!! God is inherently good.

Yep, God is spirit, the Creator who did not become one of His created being. Humans - Adam was created, Jesus was created - the first and last Adam's. Each and every human after Adam were created through the act of procreation between a male and a female - that process was created by God but the child was created by the parents. Humans have both a spirit (that which animates the body) and flesh but they have to be born again to have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, i.e. to be IN Christ. In your reasoning when we are united with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, i.e. born again - we are both God and man.
It is totally against the intrinsic value of God to become a man, one of His created beings - wouldn't that be exchanging the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man . . . . .

I'll stick with what the scripture says - "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. . . . when the woman saw . . .that the tree was to be desired to make one wise (like God) she took of its fruit and ate . . . Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."
Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God, Christ, the Last Adam, "emptied himself" of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the word and will of God. He lived by "It is written" and the commands of God, his Father. He trusted God and became obedient, even to a shameful death on a cross.

Well said, sir! Brilliant….!

 

[Soapy]

And we already know that Jesus lived dependant of His Father and was empowered by the Holy Spirit to do miracles, so that part is no problem really

Careful, Brian2… You have already rightly stated that the Father is the only true God, and now you again rightly state that Jesus was a man dependent on the empowerment through being anointed with Holy Spirit from his Spiritual/Heavenly Father.

You are in danger of telling more truths!

But I am not deceived as I know that though what you just said in the extract above is true, it is only there to prepare your way to yet another attempt at misrepresentation about Jesus Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

If we are talking specifics, we have to guess, but Heb 10:5 says God prepared a body for Jesus and that may have required the appropriate sperm with the appropriate DNA to fertilise an egg from Mary. Mary had to contribute the egg or Jesus would not be a descendant of David (and of course the DNA of the sperm may be that of David, who knows). So with Mary as a parent, Jesus had this mysterious "sin nature" unless you think that can only come from the man.
So what is the sin nature and why do you insist Jesus did not have it and had to be like Adam in that respect.
Jesus was a man, like us, and did not have to be like Adam without the "sin nature" imo.

As for Hebrews 10:5 - it is in the context of preparing a sacrifice - The will of God for Jesus Christ was for him to live an obedient life and then lay down his life for mankind. His body was therefore prepared as the perfect sacrifice.
Scripture says that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" so yes, the sin nature is passed through man which is why God chose a maiden who had not been with a man. When Adam had Seth - "he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image and named him Seth." (Gen. 5:3) Once sin entered mankind still bears the image of God but it is only dimly reflected because of sin which is why and how Jesus fully reflected God, his Father - he had NO sin.

By God nature I mean that He is exactly like His Father in His very essence. His Father is love and so Jesus is love. etc.
Jesus divine side equiped Him to overcome temptation but not to avoid temptation. Jesus with Divine nature had to choose to do what is right, it was not automatic. One side of Him was saying do X and the other side saying do Y, and the immoral path of course had carnal pleasures to it and the moral path entailed suffering. God cannot be tempted to do evil and neither could Jesus, but tempted He could be. I don't know why people think that anyone could come along and be sinless when it is only God who is good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the one who is exactly like Him.
The choosing of the moral path is overcoming the world, a man being tempted and overcoming from the very beginning. He did not have to be made perfect in any way except to have His body changed to the immortal and incorruptible body of the resurrection. He was already perfect in spirit.

Love is a characteristic of someone's nature and Jesus showed us God, the Father through his showing us God's characteristics . . . yes, as I have repeatedly said Jesus fully reflected God, his Father.
Did you go back and read what you posted above?
From the beginning of his birth to the death on the cross - Jesus ALWAYS did the will of God - that is what kept and made him perfect from birth.
He had to be a mortal in order to die and be resurrected. God is immortal.

OK, and that's fair enough. Wisdom can mean just knowledge of course. And God would have been more pleased with Him as He grew and continued to follow His Divine nature and not sin.
Jesus did not need to be purified in any way and any testing was just living life and continuing to be the Lamb of God without blemish.

God does not need to "increase" in wisdom.
I have spoken enough on Jesus being tempted and the conclusion you keep bringing forth is that in order for Jesus to endure temptation is because God overcame the temptation for him - I disagree . . .

ProbablyElizabeth was expecting the Lord, the coming Messiah.
Nevertheless the coming Messiah was the Son of God through whom God made the world (Heb 1)
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
It was the Son through whom God created the world, (past tense) not some strange concept, God's Word, His plans. If anything, this plan was already God's Son in the beginning according to Heb 1:2, John 1:1-3, Col 1:15,16 etc.

Yes, Elizabeth was expecting the Lord Jesus, the coming Messiah - it would have never entered her mind that it was to be "God come in the flesh".
Done talking about creation - God created the heavens and the earth ALONE. Jesus Christ is creating the new heavens and earth for the coming age.

The egg came from Mary, so that Jesus could be descended from David. So Jesus was not created, but was conceived.
The Son through whom everything was created (and so cannot have been created Himself) stepped into creation by becoming a man with a body made of created material.
Jesus received the Holy Spirit to empower His ministry, yes. He did not use Divine powers but relied on God for all things, direction, words, power for miracles etc.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High - a miracle conception.
God did not step into creation by becoming a man.

Because He had the exact nature of His Father, He was good and able to overcome temptation.

The Son of God/man, with a Divine spirit and a carnal body was able to be tempted through the weakness of the body and able to overcome the temptations through the Divine nature that was His.

The lack of genuine temptation is in your head and the overcoming of temptation through His weak human nature required choice and moral fortitude.

We should not devalue Jesus's walk of righteousness in any means and to say that Jesus was a God-man and that the God side of him avoided the temptations is demeaning Jesus because for a man to do what Jesus did is not only a great accomplishment worthy of everlasting merit, it also sets a standard for what we too can do IF we follow his example of faith in God. Nor should we devalue God Almighty by placing Him in the category of what He has created.

It does not really matter how much it is pushed toward deity, either He was Divine/Deity or not.
And we already know that Jesus lived dependant of His Father and was empowered by the Holy Spirit to do miracles, so that part is no problem really, it is just His overcoming of evil, His sinlessness, which is the real problem. BUT really since His nature is exactly like that of His Father (Hen 1) iow He was good, just as His Father is,,,,,, that problem of His overcoming carnal temptation should exist for you no matter who you see Jesus as having been. If He is perfectly good, He is perfectly good, and being good should be easier for Him than for us, and in fact that is why He was sent, because He was able to accomplish that job and die for us as the spotless Lamb.
And really, being tempted is just what happens to anyone with a carnal nature even if they also have a divine nature. As Jesus said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". But with Jesus the flesh was week and the spirit was willing and able to overcome the world and the flesh.
Have you got any Bible quotes about Jesus being an example of overcoming temptation for us that we could follow?
I remember Paul saying to follow his (Paul's) example but am not sure Jesus is given as our example in that respect.
Jesus came to, yes, overcome temptation, be the spotless lamb, but we are changed by the Spirit into the image of Jesus from glory to glory.

Correct, either he was God or he wasn't - I vote that he wasn't God in any way but a man, a human being created by God as the Last Adam to correct the disastrous chaos brought on by the first Adam. Just the fact that Jesus overcame temptation and walked in righteousness in obedience to God sets forth an example for us to live by.

Yes Jesus nature comes from His Father who begat Him.
But are you saying that God was good for your variety of Jesus, and that Jesus did not need to do it himself, that he truly could not be the spotless Lamb without the strength of God overcoming temptation of Him?
That would be a good example for us to turn to Him in times of temptation but is it true that Jesus was not able to overcome the world and the flesh by Himself?
He has overcome, and we rely on Him and His righteousness and His work to save us. And we know He overcame and know we are being transformed to be like Him and so keep heading to that goal.

Yes, Jesus had to resist temptation himself.
I never said Jesus wasn't strengthened by God.

And yes, Jesus reflects God because He is the Son who is the perfect image of His Father. The qualities of the Father are in Him and that is why He is the radiance of the glory of God and how He reflects God. Some people use that word "reflect" as a way of saying that the Son was nothing and was not really as good as His Father etc.

Jesus submits out of love for His Father imo. I did not say it was because He was equal.
But this knowing of each other is from eternity and continues into eternity.

No that would be Oneness Pentecostalism.


You said: I believe Jesus was addressed with his title "Son of God" when he faced Satan and the Jesus the Son of God overcame those temptations. (Satan did not address Jesus with his title "Son of Man") and if God overcame those temptations then Jesus didn't overcome anything . . . . God did!
Where is the logic in anything in anything put forth here?
So we agree that Jesus, the Son of God (the one who is perfectly good, just like His Father) overcame the temptations. It was not God in Him who did it but it was that He was able as the Son of His Father, God, iow the Son of God.

I thought "within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - was the Trinitarian doctrine.

But Jesus has 2 natures and it is the human nature (as @Oeste puts it, the Son of Man) that would be tempted, but is the Divine nature (Son of God) that is able to see through the temptations and overcome them. So the Son of Man did not sin.
I took that as you saying he was addressed as the "Son of Man" in the temptations but he wasn't.

The human being, the man, Jesus overcame the temptations. It was God who strengthened him to do so and God even sent angels to minister to him afterwards.

 

[Oeste]

I left the Trinity doctrine because a man cannot be both God and man simultaneously.

Yes, and that was my prior approach to scripture. I decided what it couldn't tell me, and then decided what it did. It worked for a while, but it didn't resolve scripture. There were always things, like a man turning stones into bread, which couldn't be resolved.

Those things get resolved through the Trinity doctrine and in a way that makes sense. Unlike modalism, we don't get a situation where God is talking to Himself.

What is it to be tempted? tempt would be when somebody or something gives you a motive to do something wrong or it could be a test: a positive or neutral trial. Tempting in and of itself is not a sin because sin requires some sort of action or choice.

Yes, but it's important to distinguish between a temptation and a wish.

A temptation is something that motivates or causes you to take a certain course of action, but it needs to be a course of action you can do or attempt. A child might wish the moon were a ball of cheese, but they can't be tempted to make it one.

Who led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil?

Let's rephrase that:

Who led Jesus into the wilderness where he was tempted by the devil?

God does not lead us into temptation.

Satan knew who Jesus was and of course, Jesus knew who he was - How is Satan using the term Son of God? I believe in a derogatory sense meant to mock or convey contempt - taunting Jesus.

But that doesn't help Jesus turn stone into bread. If Satan knew who Jesus was and Jesus knew who he was, then both are participating in a scam or neither got the memo on what men can and cannot do.

Jesus is starving after fasting for forty days which is strong motivation to turn the stones to bread.

I agree with you here.

Satan is saying "Tell these stones to turn into bread" since you are hungry and if you really are the Son of God - why not!

So this was a game of "Let's pretend"???

Men cannot turn stones into bread. Either Jesus can turn stones into bread, which means he is more than man, or he cannot because he's just a man.

In fact, unless Jesus can turn stones into bread ON HIS OWN, he has NO WAY OF KNOWING if his command "worked", or whether the Deceiver did some slight of hand and made bread appear for him.

We've all familiar with the magician who places a deck of cards under his hat, asks an audience member to tap it 3 times with their finger, and a rabbit suddenly appears underneath. How is your proposed narrative any different?

Jesus replied with Deut. 3:8 which refers back to when the Israelites were humbled and tested to know what was in their heart and whether they would humble themselves and keep God's commandments. God fed them with manna to make them know that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, i.e. God was their sufficiency.

And we are still no further along with how men turn stones into bread, and I really feel we should be further along.

Trinity doctrine solves this dilemma. I just don't see how Unitarianism does.

(Satan wasn't addressing Jesus with the title "Son of Man" but with the title "Son of God")

I disagree. Satan is addressing Jesus, Son of Man and asking “If you are the Son of God…” So, he is not addressing Jesus as "the Son of God", which only leaves "Son of Man". You are dropping out the “If” to enhance your narrative, but it doesn’t fit the text.

And in the same sense God is testing Jesus - Why? to see if he is ready to begin his ministry. Jesus passed the test.

It appears you are claiming God sent Satan to test Jesus. Is this correct?

If you are correct, then we are all tempted at the behest of God, which leads us to believe we are all sinners but only because God suggested it.

An interesting narrative and certainly appealing to some, but IMO, not one that flows from the text.

I understand that the Trinity teaches that Jesus has a dual nature, I disagree.

I respect your right to disagree but I do not see how one resolves the temptation account (or many other scriptures) without it. At the end of the day, we still have a man called Jesus that can’t possibly command stones to become bread and a temptation account that makes little sense.

 

[Soapy]

As for Hebrews 10:5 - it is in the context of preparing a sacrifice - The will of God for Jesus Christ was for him to live an obedient life and then lay down his life for mankind. His body was therefore prepared as the perfect sacrifice.
Scripture says that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" so yes, the sin nature is passed through man which is why God chose a maiden who had not been with a man. When Adam had Seth - "he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image and named him Seth." (Gen. 5:3) Once sin entered mankind still bears the image of God but it is only dimly reflected because of sin which is why and how Jesus fully reflected God, his Father - he had NO sin.

Love is a characteristic of someone's nature and Jesus showed us God, the Father through his showing us God's characteristics . . . yes, as I have repeatedly said Jesus fully reflected God, his Father.
Did you go back and read what you posted above?
From the beginning of his birth to the death on the cross - Jesus ALWAYS did the will of God - that is what kept and made him perfect from birth.
He had to be a mortal in order to die and be resurrected. God is immortal.

God does not need to "increase" in wisdom.
I have spoken enough on Jesus being tempted and the conclusion you keep bringing forth is that in order for Jesus to endure temptation is because God overcame the temptation for him - I disagree . . .

Yes, Elizabeth was expecting the Lord Jesus, the coming Messiah - it would have never entered her mind that it was to be "God come in the flesh".
Done talking about creation - God created the heavens and the earth ALONE. Jesus Christ is creating the new heavens and earth for the coming age.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High - a miracle conception.
God did not step into creation by becoming a man.

We should not devalue Jesus's walk of righteousness in any means and to say that Jesus was a God-man and that the God side of him avoided the temptations is demeaning Jesus because for a man to do what Jesus did is not only a great accomplishment worthy of everlasting merit, it also sets a standard for what we too can do IF we follow his example of faith in God. Nor should we devalue God Almighty by placing Him in the category of what He has created.

Correct, either he was God or he wasn't - I vote that he wasn't God in any way but a man, a human being created by God as the Last Adam to correct the disastrous chaos brought on by the first Adam. Just the fact that Jesus overcame temptation and walked in righteousness in obedience to God sets forth an example for us to live by.

Yes, Jesus had to resist temptation himself.
I never said Jesus wasn't strengthened by God.

I thought "within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - was the Trinitarian doctrine.

But Jesus has 2 natures and it is the human nature (as @Oeste puts it, the Son of Man) that would be tempted, but is the Divine nature (Son of God) that is able to see through the temptations and overcome them. So the Son of Man did not sin.
I took that as you saying he was addressed as the "Son of Man" in the temptations but he wasn't.

The human being, the man, Jesus overcame the temptations. It was God who strengthened him to do so and God even sent angels to minister to him afterwards.

Everything you said was well-said. I agree massively - but always there will be some small flaw in all our arguments that could be detrimental further down the kind unless pointed out to us:

• ‘Elizabeth was expecting [the coming of] the Lord Jesus…the Messiah’

Saying that ‘Jesus’ was expected plays into the hands of the Trinitarians. This type of reference (naming of the messiah) is plainly future looking back. The Messiah did not have a name in the Torah so a named Messiah could not have been expected. By given an ‘after-name’ as a ‘pre-name’ this then appears to justify that the child/man was pre-existent. It’s like saying 100 years ago, ‘The richest man in the world will be Elon Musk!’. No! But yes, 100 years from the prediction, there certainly is a man who is the richest in the world: Elon Musk. The ‘Trinitarian’ take would be that ‘Elon Musk’ existed 100 years ago - No! It was in the predictive mind of the speaker that there would be a man who was richest in the world (of course by definition there is always a man who is richest in the world but there might be a reason for this specific richest man).

 

[Soapy]

Those things get resolved through the Trinity doctrine and in a way that makes sense. Unlike modalism, we don't get a situation where God is talking to Himself.

Oeste, in trinity:

1. Jesus is ‘God’
2. The Father is ‘God’
3. Jesus prays to ‘GOD’

His are you saying that ‘God’ isn’t speaking to ‘GOD’?

And, without going into depth but for argument only: Who is speaking to whom in:

• ‘Let us create man in our image’?

Modalism is ALSO WRONG IDEOLOGY doctrine.

Truth is not about WHICH WRONG IDEOLOGY SOUNDS LESS WRONG!!

The issue of Jesus Christ being tempted to turn stones into bread can be two-pronged:

1. A deluded ‘mere man’ could imagine the stones as bread and fool himself into trying to eat them. That would show that Jesus was easily led into sinning by trying to save himself by an impossible task
2. Jesus Christ, BEING ENDOWED with the SPIRIT OF GOD, could be tempted to MISUSE the power put on him to save himself - which would be wrong… a sin!!

The point of your thinking is that Jesus being endowed (anointed) with the spirit of God means nothing …

Would you agree that before Jesus was anointed with Holy Spirit he did not do anything of a miraculous nature?

Would you agree that the disciples carried out miracles only because Jesus Christ empowered them to do so?

Would you agree that the Apostles were more highly empowered than their discipleship position after they were anointed with the spirit of God at Pentecost…

… and they went about doing good, healing the sick, making the lame to walk, the blind to see and preaching the good news of the kingdom of God?

Regarding Jesus Christ being tempted:
We are all tempted every day but in the main we resist temptation as wee fear the consequences or simple are not tempted. But those who are most highly empowered are the ones who are most highly tempted.

What makes a temptation? Jesus was anointed with ‘power from on high’. It is only natural that God should test him in the ability to resist misusing the great power that was put on him. In this regard GOD ALLOWED Satan to TEMPT Jesus to the utter limit.

Jesus could have died in the wilderness. But he relied on God to keep him alive. But could he be TEMPTED TO SAVE HIMSELF… that was the first temptation written about the event. After resisting that temptation Satan moved on to tempting Jesus to ‘show off’ his powers by jumping off the top of the temple.

Why do you say that a person GIVEN GREAT POWERS should not be tested as to whether they would misuse those great powers?

Should I take it that you are saying that Jesus Christ is almighty God and therefore could not have been tempted because God is not temptable?

Should I take it that Jesus Christ (Christ means ‘Anointed one’) was almighty God and therefore the anointing did not turn ‘Jesus’ in to ‘Jesus Christ’… and Jesus already, being Almighty God, was already all powerful, all knowing, and omni-present in the world, did not need to be anointed with the power of God - which makes a whole portion of scriptures worthless and pointed prophesies of the anointing of the messiah (Isaiah 42:1, for instance), pointless?

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, and that was my prior approach to scripture. I decided what it couldn't tell me, and then decided what it did. It worked for a while, but it didn't resolve scripture. There were always things, like a man turning stones into bread, which couldn't be resolved.

Those things get resolved through the Trinity doctrine and in a way that makes sense. Unlike modalism, we don't get a situation where God is talking to Himself.

Why couldn't you resolve a man turning stones into bread? What about the things Moses did by the power of God working with him? Have any trouble with those?

I am a Unitarian and I don't have any situations where God is talking to Himself.

Yes, but it's important to distinguish between a temptation and a wish.

A temptation is something that motivates or causes you to take a certain course of action, but it needs to be a course of action you can do or attempt. A child might wish the moon were a ball of cheese, but they can't be tempted to make it one.

Wish??? To test/tempt: peirazo - to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quality, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself - in a good sense or in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments, i.e. to try or test one's faith, virtue, character by enticement to sin, to solicit to sin, to tempt - of the temptations of the devil. Bottom line: trying to get someone to do something that is wrong by a "tempter" resulting in some sort of action or choice given from the one being tempted/tested.

"it needs to be a course of action you can do or attempt" - Would Satan have tempted Jesus at all if there were any doubt that he could turn the stones into bread?

Let's rephrase that:

Who led Jesus into the wilderness where he was tempted by the devil?

God does not lead us into temptation.

"Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." Matt. 4:1 So, the question would be "tempted to do evil" or to "test one's faith, virtue, character"? Since we know God does not lead us into temptation (to do evil) but delivers us from evil; but God does test our character and our trust in Him. Jesus was tempted by Satan and tested by God, i.e. put in a situation to test his trust in God his Father. Jesus was hungry BUT he trusted God to be his sufficiency. Ever read the section of scripture Jesus quoted from? Here's the context:
Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you.

But that doesn't help Jesus turn stone into bread. If Satan knew who Jesus was and Jesus knew who he was, then both are participating in a scam or neither got the memo on what men can and cannot do.

If Jesus had not been able to sin like the first Adam, his temptations would have been a sham. Boiled down its most simplest theme: the Bible is essentially the story of two men and their effect upon mankind - the first Adam and the last Adam - the disobedience of the first Adam and the results - sin entered the world and death through sin contrasted with the obedience of the Last Adam and the results - redemption, salvation and life. Both men; human beings - Both tempted - one failed - one succeeded.

I agree with you here.

So this was a game of "Let's pretend"???

Men cannot turn stones into bread. Either Jesus can turn stones into bread, which means he is more than man, or he cannot because he's just a man.

In fact, unless Jesus can turn stones into bread ON HIS OWN, he has NO WAY OF KNOWING if his command "worked", or whether the Deceiver did some slight of hand and made bread appear for him.

We've all familiar with the magician who places a deck of cards under his hat, asks an audience member to tap it 3 times with their finger, and a rabbit suddenly appears underneath. How is your proposed narrative any different?

I see no pretense.

And we are still no further along with how men turn stones into bread, and I really feel we should be further along.
Trinity doctrine solves this dilemma. I just don't see how Unitarianism does.

Trinity doctrine does not solve the dilemma - Trinity doctrine has God being tempted/tested to do wrong - God cannot be tempted with evil (wrong doing) = sham. The Unitarian has Jesus showing his faith and trust in God as his sufficiency. The Unitarian has Jesus knowing the scripture and relying upon "It is written" to defeat the temptations of the "tempter", the devil.

I disagree. Satan is addressing Jesus, Son of Man and asking “If you are the Son of God…” So, he is not addressing Jesus as "the Son of God", which only leaves "Son of Man". You are dropping out the “If” to enhance your narrative, but it doesn’t fit the text.

Satan is addressing Jesus who carries both titles Son of Man/Son of God. Not two people but one person, one human being carrying two titles.
Not dropping the "IF" at all! Put into today's vernacular: Come on, Jesus . . . If you are the Son of God, come on and depend upon yourself for your sufficiency - turn these stones into bread . . . . IF you are the Son of God, prove it . . . you don't have to depend upon your Father.

It appears you are claiming God sent Satan to test Jesus. Is this correct?

If you are correct, then we are all tempted at the behest of God, which leads us to believe we are all sinners but only because God suggested it.

An interesting narrative and certainly appealing to some, but IMO, not one that flows from the text.

Jesus was led by the Spirit; aka God into the wilderness to be tempted (tested) by the Devil. Go and read the context of Deut. 8 again from which Jesus quoted and see how it was God who tested the Israelites to see what was in their hearts. God never tempts, but He will sometimes put you in situations where you might choose to do evil because he wants you to learn from your mistakes or because He wants to give you the opportunity to succeed in victory over the situation. Take Abraham - Abraham was placed in a situation where he could have chosen to disobey God - I mean sacrificing your own son? BUT Abraham obeyed and trusted God to step in the situation and supply a sacrifice.

I respect your right to disagree but I do not see how one resolves the temptation account (or many other scriptures) without it. At the end of the day, we still have a man called Jesus that can’t possibly command stones to become bread and a temptation account that makes little sense.

I also respect your right to disagree.
At the end of the day, we have Jesus of Nazareth, a man, who by the power of God working in him could have taken the stones and turned them into bread BUT knowing that would be obeisance to the devil - chose to remain faithful to God his Father in each temptation.

 

[Brian2]

As for Hebrews 10:5 - it is in the context of preparing a sacrifice - The will of God for Jesus Christ was for him to live an obedient life and then lay down his life for mankind. His body was therefore prepared as the perfect sacrifice.
Scripture says that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" so yes, the sin nature is passed through man which is why God chose a maiden who had not been with a man. When Adam had Seth - "he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image and named him Seth." (Gen. 5:3) Once sin entered mankind still bears the image of God but it is only dimly reflected because of sin which is why and how Jesus fully reflected God, his Father - he had NO sin.

You still sound as if you are saying that having no sin nature made it easier for Jesus to resist temptation. If it does not, then who cares if Jesus had the sin nature passed down from Mary or not.
Or maybe you think that this sin nature means that Jesus was somehow guilty of sin.
You seem to want the fact of Jesus being the Son of God to be the reason Jesus resisted temptation for your Jesus but it is a problem when that is the case for my Divine Jesus.
You want the fact of Jesus being the Son of God to be the reason Jesus was perfectly like His Father for your Jesus but reject the idea that being perfectly like His Father actually shows Him to be the Divine Son of God since nobody by YHWH is like YHWH and nobody but YHWH is good and nobody but YHWH shines with the full glory of God.

From the beginning of his birth to the death on the cross - Jesus ALWAYS did the will of God - that is what kept and made him perfect from birth.
He had to be a mortal in order to die and be resurrected. God is immortal.

Yes the man Jesus was mortal and could die and that means for Him and for everyone else that His physical body died, but His soul stayed alive.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Jesus sacrificed His body, the life of the body, and got an immortal body back.
And the grave could not hold Him because He was sinless and not worthy of the death that came because of sin.
Acts 2:24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

God does not need to "increase" in wisdom.
I have spoken enough on Jesus being tempted and the conclusion you keep bringing forth is that in order for Jesus to endure temptation is because God overcame the temptation for him - I disagree . . .

Point to where I said that.

Yes, Elizabeth was expecting the Lord Jesus, the coming Messiah - it would have never entered her mind that it was to be "God come in the flesh".
Done talking about creation - God created the heavens and the earth ALONE. Jesus Christ is creating the new heavens and earth for the coming age.

Yes God created the heavens and the earth alone and the Son (Heb 1:2, John 1:10) was there (past tense) doing it and so that shows who the Son is.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High - a miracle conception.
God did not step into creation by becoming a man.

The uncreated Son of God stepped into creation. I show scriptures about the Son having been there creating (past tense) I offer scriptural proof and all you can do is make claims and deny what those scriptures say.

We should not devalue Jesus's walk of righteousness in any means and to say that Jesus was a God-man and that the God side of him avoided the temptations is demeaning Jesus because for a man to do what Jesus did is not only a great accomplishment worthy of everlasting merit, it also sets a standard for what we too can do IF we follow his example of faith in God. Nor should we devalue God Almighty by placing Him in the category of what He has created.

Sorry there is no devaluing anything. God sent His uncreated Son from heaven (proven scripturally through many scriptures which you deny and twist)
If God sent Him to become a man and that was what was needed then that shows God's and Jesus love for us.

Correct, either he was God or he wasn't - I vote that he wasn't God in any way but a man, a human being created by God as the Last Adam to correct the disastrous chaos brought on by the first Adam. Just the fact that Jesus overcame temptation and walked in righteousness in obedience to God sets forth an example for us to live by.

It's not really a matter of voting, it is a matter of what God has told us in His Words.

I thought "within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - was the Trinitarian doctrine.

Yes that is true. Did I say something that made you think that is not the case?
Do you think that the Son overcoming temptation through the imprint of the nature of His Father in Him (the Son) means that the Father was overcoming temptation for the Son or something.
For your Jesus who also had the imprint of the nature of God in him, I suspect that is also what enabled him to overcome temptation.
But for some reason you seem to think that this imprint of the nature of God and having the radiance of the glory of God and maybe upholding all things by the word of His power, (Heb 1:3) makes you Jesus exactly like the first Adam. But really it shows that Jesus is the Divine Son of God.

But Jesus has 2 natures and it is the human nature (as @Oeste puts it, the Son of Man) that would be tempted, but is the Divine nature (Son of God) that is able to see through the temptations and overcome them. So the Son of Man did not sin.
I took that as you saying he was addressed as the "Son of Man" in the temptations but he wasn't.

It was obvious that Jesus was the Son of Man. Satan was goading Jesus to prove who He was, sounds innocent enough, but Jesus saw through it.
Personally I don't think Jesus was strengthened to overcome temptation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think we need strengthening to overcome temptation.
Jesus was able because of being the Divine Son of God who was good, just like His Father.
Your Jesus also is supposed to have the imprint of the nature of God but needs God's help to overcome temptation.
Does that mean that he really was not like YHWH in your understanding?

Do you think that Jesus took the sins of only the first Adam on Himself? After all, an innocent man could pay the price for only one man.

 

[Brian2]

If Jesus had not been able to sin like the first Adam, his temptations would have been a sham.

Jesus was able to be tempted because of His carnal nature, but if Jesus was able to sin then that would show us what His Father is like. Jesus after all had/has the exact imprint of the nature of God.
How is Jesus able to have this exact imprint and be able to be overcome by any temptation He had?
This is really a question about your Jesus. How can He be exactly like God and sin? Either He is or is not exactly like His Father.
By saying He could have sinned you are saying that God could sin.
But of course, as a man, He could be tempted to sin.

 

[Soapy]

But that doesn't help Jesus turn stone into bread. If Satan knew who Jesus was and Jesus knew who he was, then both are participating in a scam or neither got the memo on what men can and cannot do.

I don’t get your take on this. You are stuck on thinking that ‘Son of God’ means ‘Is God’. That’s why you do not understand what is going on!

Jesus Christ IS NOT GOD!

Jesus Christ is EMPOWERED with the POWER OF GOD. That means that Jesus must exercise caution in how he uses that power since it is not his but his father’s.

Satan knows Jesus Christ is empowered and wants to tempt Jesus to misuse those powers…

Think of a lad given the keys to his father’s very well stocked bank account. Isn’t there a massive temptation to abuse the account for his own benefit… against the purpose that his Father gave him access to it?
In your belief, that lad already was co-owner of the account and would already have had a lifetime of access (an eternity, if you believe in pre-existence!). How would the lad suddenly be tempted to misuse what he already owned!!?
No! The temptation came STRAIGHT AFTER (though 40 days…) he was GIVEN THE POWER, madd impoverished to the point of absolute weakness in body and desiderata in need… would he raid his fathers account to save himself?

There’s a Tv serial over several weeks that had this as a theme… several people out in the hot, dry, shrub and insect ridden wilds of Africa with access to a shared money account but were tested not to use it… or tempted individually to use it for their own personal sake at a huge cost to the balance in the account: cool beer, chocolate, spa bath, luxury sleeping accommodation, luxury food, servants to carry their baggage over a set distance or up a steep climb… Yes, the money is theirs BUT the task is to not abuse it for personal gain. Sin: ‘the desire for personal gain above that which is given to you by legal means’

 

[Muffled]

I don't think it is saying that the physical turned into a spirit either but given a spiritual body nevertheless. Just as when we are raised from the dead, we also will receive a spiritual body.

I believe that Jesus is the "seed of the woman" from Genesis 3:15 and that he was miraculously created in the womb of Mary via the power of the Most High - the Holy Spirit, i.e. God. God did not take on human form or become a man; scripture clearly states God is not a man - Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9.

I believe I have always wondered about the term spiritual body. A literal English lesson body is a noun which says what something is and spiritual is an adjective which describes the noun in this case the body. So I believe Paul is simply using the adjective "spiritual" to indicate that it isn't the same type of body we originally had.

 

[Muffled]

Not adressed to me, but I will say something about that question.

If you read these passages you will see "who God is, diferent to Jesus":

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah (Is. 61:1,2; Hb. 4:27)
2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised (Dt. 18:15-18; Acts 3:22-26)
3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him (Psal. 110:1,2; Eph. 1:17-23)
4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek (Psal. 110:4; Hb. 5:6,10)
5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir (Psal. 2:8; Hb. 1:2)
6) Jehovah stated Jesus Christ is His Son (Psal. 2:7; Hb. 5:5)

I believe none of those make God in Jesus any less than God outside of Jesus ie the Father since God is one.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was a man, who lived in heavens before, so he is called God's First-Born and the Scriptures say that "thorugh him" God created the rest of the Universe. That would not be true if Jesus had not been at God's side when the Universe was being created.

Hb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

I believe that is false.

 

[amazing grace]

You still sound as if you are saying that having no sin nature made it easier for Jesus to resist temptation. If it does not, then who cares if Jesus had the sin nature passed down from Mary or not.

No, it's not what I am saying. I believe I made the subject quite clear and I can do nothing more to help your understanding concerning the "sin nature".

Or maybe you think that this sin nature means that Jesus was somehow guilty of sin.

Nope, being created in Mary's womb by God prevented Jesus from having a sin nature. He would only acquire a sin nature if he sinned.

You seem to want the fact of Jesus being the Son of God to be the reason Jesus resisted temptation for your Jesus but it is a problem when that is the case for my Divine Jesus.

I believe Jesus resisted temptation because he chose obedience to God his Father. Your "divine Jesus" wasn't actually tempted because in reality your "divine Jesus" was God.

You want the fact of Jesus being the Son of God to be the reason Jesus was perfectly like His Father for your Jesus but reject the idea that being perfectly like His Father actually shows Him to be the Divine Son of God since nobody by YHWH is like YHWH and nobody but YHWH is good and nobody but YHWH shines with the full glory of God.

Jesus came to make known God the Father. God the Father is the only true God, and His name is Yahweh. Yahweh shared His attributes with His anointed Son. He is the radiance of the glory of God (ESV) He is the brightness of the glory of God . . . (the radiance, the brightness apaugasma -
reflected brightness - of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God)

Yes the man Jesus was mortal and could die and that means for Him and for everyone else that His physical body died, but His soul stayed alive.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Why do you always make a distinction with "the man Jesus"?
You must believe in the "immortal soul" as the Greeks did? And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. That is the whole verse and it's teaching that we should not fear those who can only kill the body but rather fear God who can destroy a person’s body and “soul” (life) in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Most people fear those who can kill the body and not fear God nearly enough.

Jesus sacrificed His body, the life of the body, and got an immortal body back.

Jesus laid down His life for us. Jesus died and was raised immortal.

And the grave could not hold Him because He was sinless and not worthy of the death that came because of sin.
Acts 2:24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

The fulfillment of Ps. 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul in Sheol (the place of the dead; the grave), or let your holy one see corruption.

Point to where I said that.

It's not the "exact" wordage but here are a few ways in which you have stated your opinion: But let's assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His divinity. . . . .what difference does that make about anything? #130
Jesus is the exact imprint of the nature of God (Heb 1) If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin. But that does not mean that it wasn't hard to resist. If indeed he was tempted as we are and was a man as the scriptures say, then it was hard and it is only because of who he is that he resisted. #143

Yes God created the heavens and the earth alone and the Son (Heb 1:2, John 1:10) was there (past tense) doing it and so that shows who the Son is.

The Son did not pre-exist his existence.

The uncreated Son of God stepped into creation. I show scriptures about the Son having been there creating (past tense) I offer scriptural proof and all you can do is make claims and deny what those scriptures say.

Because your understanding of the scriptures you post are not correct - you read your doctrine into the meaning.

Sorry there is no devaluing anything. God sent His uncreated Son from heaven (proven scripturally through many scriptures which you deny and twist)
If God sent Him to become a man and that was what was needed then that shows God's and Jesus love for us.

I never said that God did not send His Son nor that Jesus came from God therefore I haven't denied nor twisted anything - I just don't read the Trinity doctrine INTO scripture.
In your theology, what was Jesus before God sent him to be a man? What was the pre-human Jesus?

It's not really a matter of voting, it is a matter of what God has told us in His Words.

OMG . . . It's not a literal voting! Yes, it is a matter of what God has told us in His word.

Yes that is true. Did I say something that made you think that is not the case?

When I said that before "Within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" You responded with - "No that would be Oneness Pentecostalism".

Do you think that the Son overcoming temptation through the imprint of the nature of His Father in Him (the Son) means that the Father was overcoming temptation for the Son or something.

No.

For your Jesus who also had the imprint of the nature of God in him, I suspect that is also what enabled him to overcome temptation.
But for some reason you seem to think that this imprint of the nature of God and having the radiance of the glory of God and maybe upholding all things by the word of His power, (Heb 1:3) makes you Jesus exactly like the first Adam. But really it shows that Jesus is the Divine Son of God.

It was obvious that Jesus was the Son of Man. Satan was goading Jesus to prove who He was, sounds innocent enough, but Jesus saw through it.
Personally I don't think Jesus was strengthened to overcome temptation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think we need strengthening to overcome temptation.
Jesus was able because of being the Divine Son of God who was good, just like His Father.
Your Jesus also is supposed to have the imprint of the nature of God but needs God's help to overcome temptation.
Does that mean that he really was not like YHWH in your understanding?

I don't believe that Jesus was God so yes, I believe God worked in him and strengthened him.
Jesus so totally represented and declared God his Father that he could say: Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

Do you think that Jesus took the sins of only the first Adam on Himself? After all, an innocent man could pay the price for only one man.

I believe that Romans 5:19 teaches: For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience the many shall be made righteous.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus was able to be tempted because of His carnal nature, but if Jesus was able to sin then that would show us what His Father is like. Jesus after all had/has the exact imprint of the nature of God.

Jesus was able to be tempted/tested because he was a man. Jesus had a choice to make: fall to Satan''s temptations or remain obedient to God.

How is Jesus able to have this exact imprint and be able to be overcome by any temptation He had?

Having "the exact imprint of God's nature" (ESV); "the express image of his person" (KJV) does not equal "is God". The exact imprint/express image comes from the Greek charakter (equivalent to our English word character) meaning "the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e. fascimile" Jesus Christ perfectly reflected God. He was the perfect image of God, the marked likeness of God and the precise reproduction of God's character. He overcame the temptations/testing by direct obedience to "It is written".

This is really a question about your Jesus. How can He be exactly like God and sin? Either He is or is not exactly like His Father.

Again, Jesus was not God but a man who perfectly reflected God's character.

By saying He could have sinned you are saying that God could sin.

Nope, not at all because he wasn't God.

But of course, as a man, He could be tempted to sin..

God is not a man, one of his created beings. Do you think that by believing Jesus is God that you are exchanging the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal man?

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was able to be tempted/tested because he was a man. Jesus had a choice to make: fall to Satan''s temptations or remain obedient to God.

Yes Jesus was able to be tempted because He was a man and had to choose to do what is right. It was not something that happened automatically without the choice and the struggle to overcome the temptation.

Having "the exact imprint of God's nature" (ESV); "the express image of his person" (KJV) does not equal "is God". The exact imprint/express image comes from the Greek charakter (equivalent to our English word character) meaning "the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e. fascimile" Jesus Christ perfectly reflected God. He was the perfect image of God, the marked likeness of God and the precise reproduction of God's character. He overcame the temptations/testing by direct obedience to "It is written".

So the Son of God is exactly like His Father, spiritually, and because of this He was able to overcome the temptations.
Only God is good and Jesus also was/is good,,,,,,,,,,,,, a spiritual quality.
You can say that this Son of God was not Divine, but it is logically unsound to do that imo.

Again, Jesus was not God but a man who perfectly reflected God's character.

Yes, as the human Son of God who was/is not His Father, the only true God, Jesus perfectly reflected God's character, or as I put it, Jesus was/is exactly like His Father, spiritually.

Nope, not at all because he wasn't God.

If Jesus is perfectly like His Father spiritually, and can, as a man, sin, why do you think that His Father, if He became a man with the same character, would not be able to sin?

God is not a man, one of his created beings. Do you think that by believing Jesus is God that you are exchanging the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal man?

Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God (Heb 1). I worship God through His Son whom we are to honour like we honour the Father. (John 5:23)
If the Father became a man with a body, would you continue to worship Him?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”

 

[Brian2]

No, it's not what I am saying. I believe I made the subject quite clear and I can do nothing more to help your understanding concerning the "sin nature".

It's not clear to me why you want Jesus to not have a sin nature when all of His brothers and sisters, whom He has been made like (Heb 2:17) do have a sin nature.
I know you said that the sin nature would dim the reflection Jesus is of the nature of His Father, and I don't understand how that works and how having a brighter reflection does not mean that it is easier to resist temptation.

Nope, being created in Mary's womb by God prevented Jesus from having a sin nature. He would only acquire a sin nature if he sinned.

Why wouldn't Mary pass on the sin nature to Jesus if everyone of Adam's children have this sin nature?
And, if Jesus is the Word made flesh, then why do you say that Jesus was created in Mary's womb when He existed as a plan or something before that and was just given life as a man in the womb of Mary.

I believe Jesus resisted temptation because he chose obedience to God his Father. Your "divine Jesus" wasn't actually tempted because in reality your "divine Jesus" was God.

My Divine Jesus became a man. He remained the Son of God as a man and so exactly like His Father spiritually, but the body means that He had a carnal nature as well as the spiritual nature of His Father. So He always had His body saying, "Look at that, that would be/feel nice to have (or take, or do)".
So His inner man had to take control and say no, or whatever it took.
If the Father became a man, the same thing would happen and the Father would have to take control over His new carnal nature.
It is at the resurrection when that ceases to be an issue, when we get the spiritual body, and that means that our body will not be carnal and will be able to be controlled by our spirit.

Jesus came to make known God the Father. God the Father is the only true God, and His name is Yahweh. Yahweh shared His attributes with His anointed Son. He is the radiance of the glory of God (ESV) He is the brightness of the glory of God . . . (the radiance, the brightness apaugasma -
reflected brightness - of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God)

Yes, Jesus perfectly knew His Father because they have spent time together (since time began, about 14.5 billion years I hear).
Yes the Son is exactly like His Father.
You say this human who is exactly like God is just a man and not Divine.
I follow what the Bible tells us and say that nobody is like YHWH or to be compared to YHWH.
The Son and Father are one.

Why do you always make a distinction with "the man Jesus"?
You must believe in the "immortal soul" as the Greeks did? And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. That is the whole verse and it's teaching that we should not fear those who can only kill the body but rather fear God who can destroy a person’s body and “soul” (life) in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Most people fear those who can kill the body and not fear God nearly enough.

No I do not believe in the immortal soul, I believe God can destroy the soul in Gehenna, and that would be the second death.
Adam died physically but that did not mean destruction, non existence. Hades/Sheol comes first and then the final judgement where we people are judged and then total death might happen, where the body and soul are destroyed.
But the thing is that the death of Jesus body does not mean that He went out of existence, or that His soul died.
Actually if we each went out of existence, body and soul, at the death of the body, we would have to be re created,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it would not be a resurrection of the same person, the person who would be re created, would be just a copy of the same person.

Jesus laid down His life for us. Jesus died and was raised immortal.

Yes, and Jesus dying does not mean going out of existence.

The fulfillment of Ps. 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul in Sheol (the place of the dead; the grave), or let your holy one see corruption.

Amen

It's not the "exact" wordage but here are a few ways in which you have stated your opinion: But let's assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His divinity. . . . .what difference does that make about anything? #130
Jesus is the exact imprint of the nature of God (Heb 1) If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin. But that does not mean that it wasn't hard to resist. If indeed he was tempted as we are and was a man as the scriptures say, then it was hard and it is only because of who he is that he resisted. #143

If the temptations were nothing to Jesus that would mean that He was not a man, did not have a carnal nature.
If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin.--- This means that Jesus is exactly like His Father. That is something you should agree with.
It was important that Jesus was a man (and a man is tempted because of his carnal nature) and it was important that He overcame the temptation so that He could be the spotless Lamb of God.
We come to Jesus for forgiveness and to be disciples and changed into His image (the perfect man) and for Him to be an example for us of obedience to God even through physical suffering and death.
I suppose you just go back to the idea that "God is not a liar and does not change His mind" (Numbers 23:19) and say that means that God was not a man then and can never become a man. But it does not say "Can never become a man" and it does not speak about the Son of God, whom Hebrews 1 tells us is exactly like God and was there creating the world with God-----and who inherits the name YHWH, which was His all along anyway (John 16:15) But all this must be trinitarian double talk to you but the point is that the one who is exactly like His Father should be able to resist temptation as a man.
only because of who he is that he resisted---That means that being the Son of God who is exactly like His Father means that He was going to put up with anything rather than sin/ not do the will of His Father. The only reason He is exactly like God is because He is the Son of God with the same nature as God. Nobody else is good enough to do what Jesus did, only the one who is exactly like God and who is YHWH who left His Godship behind in order to become and live as a humble man.
His Father was not there resisting temptation for Him. Even in the wilderness the angels came to minister to and strengthen Him only after the temptations.