Jesus - First Born?

[Soapy]

I'm not a JW.

Something we need to keep an eye on with Brian2. He has been the same with me: Making a claim about some other belief as if I am one from such a belief system. His hope is that I (and you) don’t notice and allow others come to believe we are of that belief!!

 

[Brian2]

The witch knew "someone would come up" after all she asked Saul "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Part of her shock was when she discovered that it was Saul asking her when God had made this practice unlawful and punishable by death. (Lev. 20:27 A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.) which is why Saul assured her she would not be punished (again in full disobedience to God). The "familiar spirit" was familiar with Samuel - he impersonated Samuel - he spoke what Samuel had previously said to Saul. Not knowing how Satan and his demons work through these practices IMO is dangerous and is why these practices still exist because people are deceived into believing they can call up the dead.

Many scriptures portray that the dead are dead. Relying on a few spurious accounts to base your belief that the dead are not really dead, is IMO, poor exegesis and may be why people don't listen.

The witch had her routine and so asked 'Whom shall I bring up for you?'.
If she was usually able to see spirits, I don't know, but it says: 1Sam 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
It not only identifies Samuel, it is the seeing of Samuel which showed the woman that the enquirer must be Saul.
Why would Samuel know why Saul had brought him up? Samuel had been dead and not non existent as you want to believe, but in Sheol, not knowing anything that was going on, in the realm of the living.
Samuel told Saul things that Samuel had not told Saul before. That on the morrow he and his sons would be killed and that Israel would lose the battle.
Interestingly it does not say if Saul heard Samuel or if the words came through the witch.

 

[amazing grace]

The witch had her routine and so asked 'Whom shall I bring up for you?'.
If she was usually able to see spirits, I don't know, but it says: 1Sam 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
It not only identifies Samuel, it is the seeing of Samuel which showed the woman that the enquirer must be Saul.
Why would Samuel know why Saul had brought him up? Samuel had been dead and not non existent as you want to believe, but in Sheol, not knowing anything that was going on, in the realm of the living.
Samuel told Saul things that Samuel had not told Saul before. That on the morrow he and his sons would be killed and that Israel would lose the battle.
Interestingly it does not say if Saul heard Samuel or if the words came through the witch.

Familiar spirits are demons. If you go to a necromancer, one who talks to the dead and the person "calls up" your dead relative - that demon knows all about you and that relative - so yes, the things the "familiar spirit" says will clearly relate to your relationship with that relative to the point that you believe it actually is your dead relative - the familiar spirit can also speak and sound like your dead relative by possessing the person "calling them up".

And if you want to base your belief that the dead are alive on this section of scripture . . . that's your choice. Just remember Satan was a liar from the beginning and his lie was "You shall not surely die." And Satan is alive and well, seeking whom he may devour.

 

[Brian2]

Familiar spirits are demons. If you go to a necromancer, one who talks to the dead and the person "calls up" your dead relative - that demon knows all about you and that relative - so yes, the things the "familiar spirit" says will clearly relate to your relationship with that relative to the point that you believe it actually is your dead relative - the familiar spirit can also speak and sound like your dead relative by possessing the person "calling them up".

And if you want to base your belief that the dead are alive on this section of scripture . . . that's your choice. Just remember Satan was a liar from the beginning and his lie was "You shall not surely die." And Satan is alive and well, seeking whom he may devour.

I don't base my belief that the dead are alive on this witch story. I have the rest of scripture also to go by.
But this story is a part of the scriptures that show us that it was God who brought Samuel up and gave him the prophecy about what would happen the following day.
And shows us that it actually was Samuel, because that is whom we are told it was.

 

[amazing grace]

I don't base my belief that the dead are alive on this witch story. I have the rest of scripture also to go by.
But this story is a part of the scriptures that show us that it was God who brought Samuel up and gave him the prophecy about what would happen the following day.
And shows us that it actually was Samuel, because that is whom we are told it was.

1) Where does this record show that "it was God who brought Samuel up"?
2) The record says that God would not answer Saul by the prophets (which Samuel was) and Saul even said (paraphrased) God has turned away from me and no longer answers me. As I asked before, why would God answer Saul through a dead prophet, in a manner that God considers detestable, an abomination?
3) Saul went to a medium to get an answer which should tell you that what was happening was ungodly because God forbade people to communicate with the dead (Deut. 18:9-14) and that such practices defiled a person in the eyes of God (Lev. 19:31). The witch said, "I see a god coming up out of the earth" ("gods" KJV). A false god (demon) in the appearance of Samuel, manifesting itself in the form of Samuel, impersonating the dead.
4) Saul had sinned so badly, he and his troops were not being protected by God - (Lev. 20:6 If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.)
5) If Saul went to war against the Philistines, his death, and the death of the royal family, was pretty much inevitable so that outcome was not so hard to predict!

Dead means dead, to die means to die and to be dead is to be no longer living. You can add as many "BUTS" as you want but scripture is clear a person is dead until the resurrection.

 

[Soapy]

I don't base my belief that the dead are alive on this witch story. I have the rest of scripture also to go by.
But this story is a part of the scriptures that show us that it was God who brought Samuel up and gave him the prophecy about what would happen the following day.
And shows us that it actually was Samuel, because that is whom we are told it was.

Brian2… do you never heed warnings?

Do you really not know what you are saying?

 

[Soapy]

God forbade people to communicate with the dead

Well, the dead know nothing so it is not ‘The Dead’ that anyone thinks they are communicating with. Demon Spirits are whom one is actually communicating with and that is why it is an abomination. Even if the answer from the demon is true, it is so that the next time the demon will tell a lie that is way more detrimental to the soul of the enquirer! In other words, the demon tricks the believer with a small inconsequential truth so it gains your confidence and thus it can tell a greater lie, later and you will believe it!!

And ‘DEAD’ is a HUMAN TERM… it refers to the inability for the living to communicate with the one that has ‘passed’. It is the human way of realising that they can no longer communicate with that other one.

But in Spiritual terms, God knows that the Spirit is merely testing, dormant in his place of ‘Spirit sleep’, awaiting the resurrection. The Spirit is NOT NON-EXISTENT as Brian2 tries to make out… there is more of his nonsense about this in another thread somewhere!

There is only one time when a living Soul becomes non-existent and that is when God DESTROYS that Soul… DESTROYS THE SPIRIT OF THAT SOUL… which is at ye end of the present system of things… GOD even preserves the SPIRIT of demons UNTIL THAT the time of DESTRUCTION.

Please get used to noticing and using the words Kill / Death / Die of human notion which is a temporary event, and DESTRUCTION which is an eternal end-time event. Note how it is expressed in the verse:

• ‘Do not be afraid of those who can KILL THE BODY but cannot KILL the Soul. Be afraid of him who can DESTROY both Soul and body …’
• Man can only ‘kill’ but not ‘Destroy’. But God can ‘Destroy’ - which results in non-existence… applied to the wicked, and to DEATH itself.

 

[Brian2]

1) Where does this record show that "it was God who brought Samuel up"?

The fact that it was Samuel, as shown in the story, and that he gave Saul prophecies that a demon would not know. This shows that it was God who brought Samuel up.

2) The record says that God would not answer Saul by the prophets (which Samuel was) and Saul even said (paraphrased) God has turned away from me and no longer answers me. As I asked before, why would God answer Saul through a dead prophet, in a manner that God considers detestable, an abomination?

This is how the conversation went between Samuel and Saul:
1Sam 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

As you can see, God is not answering Sauls question but is telling him what he already knows about being rejected as King. Then Samuel gives the prophecy about Saul and his sons dying in the battle and being with him (Samuel).
And God thinking that this sort of mediumship is wrong for people to do did not change the fact that Saul went to a medium and that the medium did what she was going to do.

3) Saul went to a medium to get an answer which should tell you that what was happening was ungodly because God forbade people to communicate with the dead (Deut. 18:9-14) and that such practices defiled a person in the eyes of God (Lev. 19:31). The witch said, "I see a god coming up out of the earth" ("gods" KJV). A false god (demon) in the appearance of Samuel, manifesting itself in the form of Samuel, impersonating the dead.

The woman was just describing what she saw in the best way she know how. A divine being, a god, a ghostly figure etc is some of the translations. That description has nothing to do with who came up,,,,,,,,,,,,, the one consistently called Samuel and who gave true prophecy and did not answer Saul's question.

4) Saul had sinned so badly, he and his troops were not being protected by God - (Lev. 20:6 If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.)

Maybe going to the medium was the last straw and God decided to kill Saul because of that.

5) If Saul went to war against the Philistines, his death, and the death of the royal family, was pretty much inevitable so that outcome was not so hard to predict!

So a prophecy saying that both Saul and his sons were going to die and Israel lose against the Philistines was easy to predict.

Dead means dead, to die means to die and to be dead is to be no longer living. You can add as many "BUTS" as you want but scripture is clear a person is dead until the resurrection.

Dead is dead, I cannot deny it. But what the first death is, that is what is being discussed.
Certainly the second death is the destruction of soul and body, but the first death, that of the body, means that the soul (the part that then is the totality of the person) goes and waits for the resurrection and judgement. Their plans are gone, their reward is no more, people forget them, they forget everything probably, they no longer go and worship God publically, they seem to be sleeping but may be able to stir themselves at times, some of them are comforted and some are tormented.
The resurrected person is not a copy but is the actual person in another body. (the soul has a body, the body and spirit are the soul of a living person, the spirit seems to be the soul of a dead person)
There are many scriptures which show that we have a spiritual part that leaves the body at it's death. Do you want me to find some for you? It might help you to use your creativity and make up reasons why they don't mean what they say.

 

[amazing grace]

The fact that it was Samuel, as shown in the story, and that he gave Saul prophecies that a demon would not know. This shows that it was God who brought Samuel up.

This is how the conversation went between Samuel and Saul:
1Sam 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

As you can see, God is not answering Sauls question but is telling him what he already knows about being rejected as King. Then Samuel gives the prophecy about Saul and his sons dying in the battle and being with him (Samuel).
And God thinking that this sort of mediumship is wrong for people to do did not change the fact that Saul went to a medium and that the medium did what she was going to do.

The woman was just describing what she saw in the best way she know how. A divine being, a god, a ghostly figure etc is some of the translations. That description has nothing to do with who came up,,,,,,,,,,,,, the one consistently called Samuel and who gave true prophecy and did not answer Saul's question.

Maybe going to the medium was the last straw and God decided to kill Saul because of that.

So a prophecy saying that both Saul and his sons were going to die and Israel lose against the Philistines was easy to predict.

Believe what you will.

Dead is dead, I cannot deny it. But what the first death is, that is what is being discussed.
Certainly the second death is the destruction of soul and body, but the first death, that of the body, means that the soul (the part that then is the totality of the person) goes and waits for the resurrection and judgement. Their plans are gone, their reward is no more, people forget them, they forget everything probably, they no longer go and worship God publically, they seem to be sleeping but may be able to stir themselves at times, some of them are comforted and some are tormented.
The resurrected person is not a copy but is the actual person in another body. (the soul has a body, the body and spirit are the soul of a living person, the spirit seems to be the soul of a dead person)
There are many scriptures which show that we have a spiritual part that leaves the body at it's death. Do you want me to find some for you? It might help you to use your creativity and make up reasons why they don't mean what they say.

I understand what is being discussed - death.

Where does the "soul" go to await the resurrection? What is the holding place for the soul called?

The dead know nothing . . . they no longer make wages, and their memory is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have perished and they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (no more share in life) So whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going. (paraphrased) Ecc. 9:5,6,10

What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit, the grave? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Ps. 30:9 (I know that you relate that "praise" with "publically" but that is you adding to the verse.)

And there are many more - do you want me to find some for you? It might help you use your creativity and make up reasons why they don't mean what they say.

 

[Brian2]

Where does the "soul" go to await the resurrection? What is the holding place for the soul called?

sheol/hades

The dead know nothing . . . they no longer make wages, and their memory is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have perished and they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (no more share in life) So whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going. (paraphrased) Ecc. 9:5,6,10

What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit, the grave? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Ps. 30:9 (I know that you relate that "praise" with "publically" but that is you adding to the verse.)

You have not shown that the dead go out of existence. Those verses tell us the state of the dead. Nothing about them not existing.
Read it carefully and point out the places you think show that the dead do not exist.

Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

And pointing out the usual use of the word "praise" is not adding to the scriptures, it is clarifying them.
And pit/grave are not the same as sheol/hades even if in places they are used synonymously.

And there are many more - do you want me to find some for you? It might help you use your creativity and make up reasons why they don't mean what they say.

If you want, there are plenty also that show existence and even consciousness after death of the body.

 

[Soapy]

Believe what you will.

I understand what is being discussed - death.

Where does the "soul" go to await the resurrection? What is the holding place for the soul called?

The dead know nothing . . . they no longer make wages, and their memory is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have perished and they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (no more share in life) So whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going. (paraphrased) Ecc. 9:5,6,10

What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit, the grave? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Ps. 30:9 (I know that you relate that "praise" with "publically" but that is you adding to the verse.)

And there are many more - do you want me to find some for you? It might help you use your creativity and make up reasons why they don't mean what they say.

Hi Amazing Grace, I like your posts and believe you are speaking goodness and truth in the face of adversity with Brian2.

It’s easy to get caught up in the ‘drama’ of the postings so, as one looking from outside of the ‘drama’, can I show you some points to look closer into with Brian2:

1. He uses a strange term ‘Soul of a Person’. There is no such term because ‘SOUL’ is just a different word for ‘Person’. Brian2 uses his term to try to push the fallacy that ‘Soul’ is ANOTHER PART of a ‘person’?? Can you see that it cannot work!
2. Brian2 uses the term, ‘Non-Existent’ (or derivatives). There is only ONE TIME when a living being becomes ‘Non-Existent’ and that is when its SPIRIT IS DESTROYED and that is AT THE END OF THE PRESENT TIME. Even Demon angels, and Satan (Who are Spirit!!) are preserved until that time. Being ‘Jailed in darkness’ is not ‘Non-existent’. It just mean ‘Being away from the world, unable to communicate with the living’. It is to be noted that no one else except those who are purposely attempting to be deceitful, would ever use a fallacious term as ‘Non-existent’ for those who are ‘Dead’ as we know that the Spirit of the ‘dead’ are in a ‘Non-Living’ state RESTING WITH GOD - God who created it and holds it awaiting the day of resurrection. A seed is not DEAD, is not ‘NON-EXISTENT’, but merely ‘DORMANT’, ‘SLEEPING’ (if you will) while it awaits the spring to be RESURRECTED into a new plant!!

 

[amazing grace]

sheol/hades

What is the meaning of those words to you?

You have not shown that the dead go out of existence. Those verses tell us the state of the dead. Nothing about them not existing.
Read it carefully and point out the places you think show that the dead do not exist.

Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

And pointing out the usual use of the word "praise" is not adding to the scriptures, it is clarifying them.
And pit/grave are not the same as sheol/hades even if in places they are used synonymously.

If you want, there are plenty also that show existence and even consciousness after death of the body.

I thought what I posted was my point in being dead - no existence, i.e. not living!
The dead know nothing . . . they no longer make wages, and their memory is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have perished and they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (no more share in life) So whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going. (paraphrased) Ecc. 9:5,6,10

Here is what I think of as existence -the fact or state of living or having being = life; so, to not be in existence would be the opposite, i.e. not existing, absence of existing or living = death.

sheol is the Hebrew word for the OT designation for the abode of the dead; gravedom, grave; hades is Greek for Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions; Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead and its later use: grave, death, hell.

What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit, the grave? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Ps. 30:9
praise - yada (Hiphil) to give thanks, praise; to confess, confess (the name of God) The point of Job's verse: there is no profit in death since he is going to the grave . . . how will he praise God? (in the grave) how will he tell of God's faithfulness (in the grave)?

 

[amazing grace]

Hi Amazing Grace, I like your posts and believe you are speaking goodness and truth in the face of adversity with Brian2.

It’s easy to get caught up in the ‘drama’ of the postings so, as one looking from outside of the ‘drama’, can I show you some points to look closer into with Brian2:

1. He uses a strange term ‘Soul of a Person’. There is no such term because ‘SOUL’ is just a different word for ‘Person’. Brian2 uses his term to try to push the fallacy that ‘Soul’ is ANOTHER PART of a ‘person’?? Can you see that it cannot work!
2. Brian2 uses the term, ‘Non-Existent’ (or derivatives). There is only ONE TIME when a living being becomes ‘Non-Existent’ and that is when its SPIRIT IS DESTROYED and that is AT THE END OF THE PRESENT TIME. Even Demon angels, and Satan (Who are Spirit!!) are preserved until that time. Being ‘Jailed in darkness’ is not ‘Non-existent’. It just mean ‘Being away from the world, unable to communicate with the living’. It is to be noted that no one else except those who are purposely attempting to be deceitful, would ever use a fallacious term as ‘Non-existent’ for those who are ‘Dead’ as we know that the Spirit of the ‘dead’ are in a ‘Non-Living’ state RESTING WITH GOD - God who created it and holds it awaiting the day of resurrection. A seed is not DEAD, is not ‘NON-EXISTENT’, but merely ‘DORMANT’, ‘SLEEPING’ (if you will) while it awaits the spring to be RESURRECTED into a new plant!!

Hi Soapy - thank you.

Another way to look at death is that we are dead, "asleep", until Jesus "wakes" us in the resurrection, breathes life back into us. Simply put when we hear the "alarm clock ring"! There are different meanings for nonexistence but the first one is to not have being or existence, the condition of not existing. We can say that when we are no longer alive, i.e. among the living - we no longer exist = death.
I have no problem with God remembering who I am nor Jesus knowing those who are his for we will hear his voice and come up out of the grave at the resurrection, NOT AS A COPY but with a new spiritual body. Your analogy also fits but it still gives the impression that one is alive with God at death. If that were the case - Death would not be an enemy but something to look forward to - we are to look forward to the resurrection that is our hope!

 

[Brian2]

1. He uses a strange term ‘Soul of a Person’. There is no such term because ‘SOUL’ is just a different word for ‘Person’. Brian2 uses his term to try to push the fallacy that ‘Soul’ is ANOTHER PART of a ‘person’?? Can you see that it cannot work!

Thanks Soapy, I had not even thought of it like that. Maybe you are right.
So I guess that means when Jesus said that when someone kills your body they cannot kill your soul, that means that when someone kills your body they cannot kill you.
Which means that you go on living.

1. Brian2 uses the term, ‘Non-Existent’ (or derivatives). There is only ONE TIME when a living being becomes ‘Non-Existent’ and that is when its SPIRIT IS DESTROYED and that is AT THE END OF THE PRESENT TIME. Even Demon angels, and Satan (Who are Spirit!!) are preserved until that time. Being ‘Jailed in darkness’ is not ‘Non-existent’. It just mean ‘Being away from the world, unable to communicate with the living’. It is to be noted that no one else except those who are purposely attempting to be deceitful, would ever use a fallacious term as ‘Non-existent’ for those who are ‘Dead’ as we know that the Spirit of the ‘dead’ are in a ‘Non-Living’ state RESTING WITH GOD - God who created it and holds it awaiting the day of resurrection. A seed is not DEAD, is not ‘NON-EXISTENT’, but merely ‘DORMANT’, ‘SLEEPING’ (if you will) while it awaits the spring to be RESURRECTED into a new plant!!

I hope you realise that you are me almost agree about this and it is @amazing grace who says that the dead are non existent.
However I don't agree with what you said about the spirit of the dead being in a non living state resting with God. I agree that it is sleeping however, but this does not mean that it is either dead or non existent.
But I tend to see the spirit of a person as being more than a life force. If the soul still lives at the death of the body then surely it is in the spirit of the person.
But I must admit that I have not worked out the difference between the soul and spirit after the death of the body.

 

[Brian2]

What is the meaning of those words to you?

Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek and they both mean the same thing, the place of the dead persons.
Sometimes in the OT it does not matter if sheol is translated as grave however, it does not change the meaning.

I thought what I posted was my point in being dead - no existence, i.e. not living!
The dead know nothing . . . they no longer make wages, and their memory is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have perished and they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (no more share in life) So whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going. (paraphrased) Ecc. 9:5,6,10

Read what it says and mayby you will see that Ecclesiastes does not teach that the dead are not in existence.

Here is what I think of as existence -the fact or state of living or having being = life; so, to not be in existence would be the opposite, i.e. not existing, absence of existing or living = death.

A person is a body with a spirit. The body is animated by the spirit and the person is a living soul.
A human being needs both a body and spirit to work properly. When the spirit departs the body is dead and the spirit goes to God for safe keeping, and where it is being kept safely is sheol/hades imo.
In life the body and spirit make up the totality of the person and is a soul.
When the body dies, the body is missing but the soul has not been killed (again Matt 10:28-- sorry, but it is so plain to me that Jesus is saying that the soul does not die when the body dies) The soul, which is the totality of the dead person, goes on alive, but not complete as a human of course and is in hades until the resurrection and jugement and then (again as Matt 10:28 says) both the body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna if that is the jugement.

sheol is the Hebrew word for the OT designation for the abode of the dead; gravedom, grave; hades is Greek for Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions; Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead and its later use: grave, death, hell.

What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit, the grave? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? Ps. 30:9
praise - yada (Hiphil) to give thanks, praise; to confess, confess (the name of God) The point of Job's verse: there is no profit in death since he is going to the grave . . . how will he praise God? (in the grave) how will he tell of God's faithfulness (in the grave)?

For a start the word translated "grave" is not sheol but is a word that actually means pit.
In my Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, the word used for "praise" (number 847 in the word book) says that this verb was predominantly employed to express ones public proclamation or declaration of God's attributes and His works.
So the dead don't have public praise. The dead seem to be in pretty listless or sleeping state, but there are places where they are shown as not being completely unconscious, at times at least.

 

[amazing grace]

Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek and they both mean the same thing, the place of the dead persons.
Sometimes in the OT it does not matter if sheol is translated as grave however, it does not change the meaning.

Definitions matter and they can be easily looked up.

Read what it says and mayby you will see that Ecclesiastes does not teach that the dead are not in existence.

A person is a body with a spirit. The body is animated by the spirit and the person is a living soul.
A human being needs both a body and spirit to work properly. When the spirit departs the body is dead and the spirit goes to God for safe keeping, and where it is being kept safely is sheol/hades imo.
In life the body and spirit make up the totality of the person and is a soul.
When the body dies, the body is missing but the soul has not been killed (again Matt 10:28-- sorry, but it is so plain to me that Jesus is saying that the soul does not die when the body dies) The soul, which is the totality of the dead person, goes on alive, but not complete as a human of course and is in hades until the resurrection and jugement and then (again as Matt 10:28 says) both the body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna if that is the jugement.

If one is dead - in the grave - they no longer exist.
A human being consists of body soul and spirit.
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. A complete whole person is a body, soul and spirit.
When one quits breathing, they are no longer alive and are placed in a grave ---- for there is no work thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, the grave, to which you are going.
Matt. 10:28 has been explained by me and by @seekandfind in the other thread concerning "Are soul and spirit the same".

For a start the word translated "grave" is not sheol but is a word that actually means pit.
In my Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, the word used for "praise" (number 847 in the word book) says that this verb was predominantly employed to express ones public proclamation or declaration of God's attributes and His works.
So the dead don't have public praise. The dead seem to be in pretty listless or sleeping state, but there are places where they are shown as not being completely unconscious, at times at least.

Oh well, I have given definitions of what existence means = life and nonexistence is just the opposite = death.
I have gone to Strong's and given the definition from there of Sheol and Hades and praise . . . I have even referenced the very first lie told - "You shall not surely die." I have said all I can say.

 

[Soapy]

Thanks Soapy, I had not even thought of it like that. Maybe you are right.

Thank you for saying so.

So I guess that means when Jesus said that when someone kills your body they cannot kill your soul, that means that when someone kills your body they cannot kill you.
Which means that you go on living.

Have another look at what Jesus says:

• “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

‘those who kill the body but cannot kill the Soul’.
But God can ‘DESTROY THE SOUL’, which means BOTH Spirit AND BODY…

Destroy… different to kill…!!!

A Soul is still in existence even if the BODY has been killed. However, the Soul is in a DORMANT state, inert, ‘Sleeping’, uncommunicative in the world, and is awaiting the day of resurrection when God puts it back into a reconstituted body and that Soul AGAIN BECOMES A LIVING SOUL.
The term, ‘Living’ here, means ‘Able to communicate in the world. Do not confuse the Spirit in a dormant state as ‘BEING DEAD’… A seed in a dormant state has no reaction in the ground BUT IT IS NOT DEAD but awaiting the time of GERMINATION… regeneration, RESURRECTION.

I hope you realise that you are me almost agree about this and it is @amazing grace who says that the dead are non existent.
However I don't agree with what you said about the spirit of the dead being in a non living state resting with God. I agree that it is sleeping however, but this does not mean that it is either dead or non existent.
But I tend to see the spirit of a person as being more than a life force. If the soul still lives at the death of the body then surely it is in the spirit of the person.
But I must admit that I have not worked out the difference between the soul and spirit after the death of the body.

Ah yes, I’m sorry for that… I’ve recently seen what you pointed out. However, even your viewpoint given that revelation is still not right.

At no point have I said that any part of the Soul / Person is ever ‘Non-Existent’ except when God DESTROYS the Spirit at the end of the present time.

When both Body and Spirit are destroyed then, and only then, is the Soul NON-EXISTENT… never to be brought back to remembrance.

It is to be noted that DESTROYING the Spirit naturally also destroys the body since the body can only exist if the Spirit is existing.

It is also to be noted that a Soul can only exist if there is a SPIRIT in EITHER an active or inactive state … and does not need a body to be existing. The should be evident in itself since:

• God is pure Spirit
• Angels (even demon angels) are pure Spirit
• Man is Spirit (restrained in a Flesh body)

The demon Spirit is ‘held in jail’ awaiting the day of DESTRUCTION. God will not DESTROY any of his created Spirits until the day of judgement carried out by his appointed agent: The man, Jesus Christ.

It is also evident that though those spirit CAN NO LONGER COMMUNICATE IN THE WORLD they are still EXISTING SPIRITS. And so it is with the Spirits of those of humanity who’s bodies have been ‘killed’ off from the world.

 

[Soapy]

Hi Amazing Angel, I know I upvoted many of your posts and gave you credit many times … but there were some severe lack of understanding in your posting on your view of ‘Dead’…

I thought what I posted was my point in being dead - no existence, i.e. not living!

Here is what I think of as existence -the fact or state of living or having being = life; so, to not be in existence would be the opposite, i.e. not existing, absence of existing or living = death.

I wrongly thought it was Brian2 who had been claiming that being ‘Dead’ meant ‘Non-Existent’ although he first mentioned the term WITHOUT QUALIFICATION.

Let this be known to you, please: The term ‘Non-Existent’ is NOT APPLICABLE to anything in the world of the living nor in the world of the dead.

A Non-Existent entity is one ‘NOT IN THE MIND OF GOD’.

And there is only ONE TIME that a created entity BECOMES NON-EXISTENT and that is when God (Jesus the granted Judge of the created world - not almighty God who granted Jesus the position!) DESTROYS that created entity.

So far, neither you nor Brian2 have acknowledged the term ‘Destroy’ - as opposed to ‘kill’, something SCREAMINGLY OBVIOUS from the verse.

I feel i need to be so blatant here since it is this very lack of acknowledgement that is keeping both you and Brian2 in circular arguments (erm… debate!!) over what happens to the dead!

Thus, I would urge you not to keep thinking as you stated. Trinitarians have a tendency to claim BINARY arguments to deceive their opponents in ways such as:

• If Jesus is not ‘Good’ then he must be ‘BAD’!
• God is Lord and Jesus is Lord so Jesus must [also?] be GOD

And here also:

• ‘The Soul cannot be killed; The Spirit cannot be killed. Therefore the Soul is the same as the Spirit’

I hope you can see that these are total bunkum… designed as playful deceptions to try to win a debate or discussion point… but DECEPTIONS (or at least extremely naive errors of thought!) nonetheless.

1. The Soul cannot be killed BECAUSE the Spirit cannot be killed.
2. The Soul survives DESPITE the Body being killed
3. The Soul cannot survive if the Spirit is DESTROYED
4. The Soul is ALSO destroyed if the Spirit us DESTROYED
5. Man can KILL the body of a man but cannot kill his Spirit (thus, obviously cannot kill his Soul)
6. But GOD can DESTROY both body AND SOUL

Now, when the Soul is DESTROYED … now THERE IS NO MORE EXISTENCE of that Soul… He will no more be recalled to memory nor are his deeds retold whether great or otherwise!

But this DESTROY only occurs ONCE for all at one time… after the judgement in the second resurrection.

But this DESTROY only occurs ONCE for all at one time… after the judgement in the second resurrection.

What you describe here is from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE. In humanity, someone who is dead cannot be communicated with - the Spirit of that Soul is ‘SLEEPING WITH GOD - it’s maker)

THEREFORE that Person (Look how easily ‘Soul’ is swapped for ‘Person’? It’s as simple as swapping ‘Messiah’ for ‘Christ’) goes ‘out of existence’ only as far as INTERACTION is concerned. The Soul of the living cannot interact with the Soul of dead. Which is why claimed attempts of such interactions are abominable to God and pure evil doings against a living one (The argument about King Saul and the raising up of Samuel by the witch of Endor)

Here is a short way to say it:

• Killed: Dead to the world: Alive resting in God (Dead/Alive: non-living!!)
• Destroyed: Non-existent to man; Non-Existent to God (The Soul is gone eternally)

When the Spirit OF THE SOUL is separated from the Body, that Spirit goes to REST, SLEEPING with God.

‘Sleeping’ can never mean ‘Non-Existent’.

A seed, dormant in the soil, is ‘sleeping’, awaiting the spring whence it germinates, regenerates, is reborn as a plant… in its ‘sleeping’, it most certainly is not LIVING but yet also is not NON-EXISTENT!

Even in humanity, is one who is sleeping ‘Dead’?

Is someone in s Coma, DEAD, and non-existent?

‘Sleeping’ means ‘Able to be woken up’, and indeed, those sleeping with God will be awoken in the resurrection.

But DESTROYED… the Spirit that is destroyed is no more - to neither man nor to God.

Destruction is EVERLASTING.

 

[amazing grace]

Hi Amazing Angel, I know I upvoted many of your posts and gave you credit many times … but there were some severe lack of understanding in your posting on your view of ‘Dead’…

I wrongly thought it was Brian2 who had been claiming that being ‘Dead’ meant ‘Non-Existent’ although he first mentioned the term WITHOUT QUALIFICATION.

Let this be known to you, please: The term ‘Non-Existent’ is NOT APPLICABLE to anything in the world of the living nor in the world of the dead.

A Non-Existent entity is one ‘NOT IN THE MIND OF GOD’.

And there is only ONE TIME that a created entity BECOMES NON-EXISTENT and that is when God (Jesus the granted Judge of the created world - not almighty God who granted Jesus the position!) DESTROYS that created entity.

So far, neither you nor Brian2 have acknowledged the term ‘Destroy’ - as opposed to ‘kill’, something SCREAMINGLY OBVIOUS from the verse.

I feel i need to be so blatant here since it is this very lack of acknowledgement that is keeping both you and Brian2 in circular arguments (erm… debate!!) over what happens to the dead!

Thus, I would urge you not to keep thinking as you stated. Trinitarians have a tendency to claim BINARY arguments to deceive their opponents in ways such as:

• If Jesus is not ‘Good’ then he must be ‘BAD’!
• God is Lord and Jesus is Lord so Jesus must [also?] be GOD

And here also:

• ‘The Soul cannot be killed; The Spirit cannot be killed. Therefore the Soul is the same as the Spirit’

I hope you can see that these are total bunkum… designed as playful deceptions to try to win a debate or discussion point… but DECEPTIONS (or at least extremely naive errors of thought!) nonetheless.

1. The Soul cannot be killed BECAUSE the Spirit cannot be killed.
2. The Soul survives DESPITE the Body being killed
3. The Soul cannot survive if the Spirit is DESTROYED
4. The Soul is ALSO destroyed if the Spirit us DESTROYED
5. Man can KILL the body of a man but cannot kill his Spirit (thus, obviously cannot kill his Soul)
6. But GOD can DESTROY both body AND SOUL

Now, when the Soul is DESTROYED … now THERE IS NO MORE EXISTENCE of that Soul… He will no more be recalled to memory nor are his deeds retold whether great or otherwise!

But this DESTROY only occurs ONCE for all at one time… after the judgement in the second resurrection.

But this DESTROY only occurs ONCE for all at one time… after the judgement in the second resurrection.

What you describe here is from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE. In humanity, someone who is dead cannot be communicated with - the Spirit of that Soul is ‘SLEEPING WITH GOD - it’s maker)

THEREFORE that Person (Look how easily ‘Soul’ is swapped for ‘Person’? It’s as simple as swapping ‘Messiah’ for ‘Christ’) goes ‘out of existence’ only as far as INTERACTION is concerned. The Soul of the living cannot interact with the Soul of dead. Which is why claimed attempts of such interactions are abominable to God and pure evil doings against a living one (The argument about King Saul and the raising up of Samuel by the witch of Endor)

Here is a short way to say it:

• Killed: Dead to the world: Alive resting in God (Dead/Alive: non-living!!)
• Destroyed: Non-existent to man; Non-Existent to God (The Soul is gone eternally)

What happens to the "soul"? Where does it go?
I do not read in Matt. 10:28 that the soul lives on after death. I posted what I believe Matt. 10:28 means: "Body, soul and spirit (sometimes referred to the "spirit of man") is what makes up the whole of man. When a person dies the whole person dies.
God will redeem our whole body at the resurrection. We will be judged - those judged righteous to eternal life - those judged unrighteous to the lake of fire (gehanna) where the body and soul will be destroyed."

From Post #331 - the second death.

When the Spirit OF THE SOUL is separated from the Body, that Spirit goes to REST, SLEEPING with God.

‘Sleeping’ can never mean ‘Non-Existent’.

A seed, dormant in the soil, is ‘sleeping’, awaiting the spring whence it germinates, regenerates, is reborn as a plant… in its ‘sleeping’, it most certainly is not LIVING but yet also is not NON-EXISTENT!

Even in humanity, is one who is sleeping ‘Dead’?

Is someone in s Coma, DEAD, and non-existent?

‘Sleeping’ means ‘Able to be woken up’, and indeed, those sleeping with God will be awoken in the resurrection.

But DESTROYED… the Spirit that is destroyed is no more - to neither man nor to God.

Destruction is EVERLASTING.

What do you mean by the first sentence above? How do you mean "rest, sleeping with God"?

"Sleep" is a metaphor/euphemism for death it does not literally mean "sleep". Consider and answer me, O Yahweh my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death. [Ps. 13:3]
When one is asleep, their bodily functions continue, and the person is able to wake up on one's own but in death a person's bodily functions cease. In death the complete person is dead, and they cannot wake up on their own but stay dead until the resurrection.
When I speak of nonexistence - I am not speaking of EXTINCT!
Again, here is what I think of as existence -the fact or state of living or having being = life; so, to not be in existence would be the opposite, i.e. not existing, absence of existing or living = death. If one is dead - in the grave - they no longer exist.
Yes, those who have died will awake in the resurrection. "But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his liast, and where is he? . . . . so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep." [Job 14:10,12]
Yes, I understand the "destroyed" in Matthew 10:28.

 

[Soapy]

From Post #331 - the second death.

What do you mean by the first sentence above? How do you mean "rest, sleeping with God"?

"Sleep" is a metaphor/euphemism for death it does not literally mean "sleep". Consider and answer me, O Yahweh my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death. [Ps. 13:3]
When one is asleep, their bodily functions continue, and the person is able to wake up on one's own but in death a person's bodily functions cease. In death the complete person is dead, and they cannot wake up on their own but stay dead until the resurrection.
When I speak of nonexistence - I am not speaking of EXTINCT!
Again, here is what I think of as existence -the fact or state of living or having being = life; so, to not be in existence would be the opposite, i.e. not existing, absence of existing or living = death. If one is dead - in the grave - they no longer exist.
Yes, those who have died will awake in the resurrection. "But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his liast, and where is he? . . . . so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep." [Job 14:10,12]
Yes, I understand the "destroyed" in Matthew 10:28.

Ok, so what do you say is the difference between being Dead and being Destroyed?

Man can kill the Body but not the Soul.
God can DESTROY both Soul and Body.

• ‘Kill’ is temporary temporary dormant Spirit and decaying body.
• ‘Destroy’ is permanent and everlasting removal from from all existence of the Soul/Person both Spirit and body.