Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The excluded middle is that something has to be something or the other. You are trying to make a "middle".
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Because you have refused to enter into a polite conversation. Even this question of yours was rude considering that you were the one that was running away.So answer my reasonable question, SZ.
How do you know that it looks to everyone as if I am just trolling.
Remember, don't run away!
Should I have qualified that statement? Okay, to any honest person it looks like you are trolling. And that is for the reasons given above.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I am? Can you explain how I am doing this, and tell me what ‘middle’ I am trying to make? Sorry, I’m just not seeing it.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Any honest person? Again, how do you know? Have you asked every honest person?
If not, you are assuming again.
***
I have never refused to enter into a polite conversation. You are mistaken (or maybe it’s wishful thinking on your part).
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The First Principle who is eternal love and life, because of the abundance of that love, produces from “His” own essence the Word who in relation is the Son. In the same overflow love the Spirit is “breathed” out of the same essence. They are distinct from each other but because they all share the same original essence they are united in it and by it and hence still One God. The divine nature (as essence or “substance”) is a single infinite whole but there is a communal life within it that we can only describe as “person” although that is an inadequate word for something transcendent and not of this world.
Perhaps a material analogy would be a single shoot of a plant that produces two new shoots. There are three shoots but a single plant that shares the same whole life and nature.
What becomes important is that God is communal in love within the oneness and that communal love is related to us being “made in God’s image”, to be communal persons who come from love and are to be part of the divine loving. It is always self giving and going out beyond itself to find unity in the diversity.
How do we understand the trinity?
(There’s some interesting stuff here you might be interested in…)
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is because the Trinity is a mess. But it is a human made up mess anyway so I can understand that. When you try to make Jesus God and the Father God and the Holy Spirit God you are going to have that sort of problem.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
An honest person does not accuse others of their own flaws. You false accused "logical fallacy" because you did not know how to apply them correctly. In fact you made an appeal to false authority fallacy when you tried to link WLC. I rejected him outright because I am aware of how he fails. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion. You should have asked why I rejected him.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand. I’ll ask you again. Can you explain how I am ‘trying to make a middle’? I understand the LEM; I don’t understand how it is applicable here.
Will you explain?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The idea of the Trinity is dogma that is not logically consistent. At best the arguments say what God is not and not what God is. That is of course due to the conflicting accounts in the Gospels where Jesus rather strongly implies that he is not God in Mark but the time we get to John it appears that he is claiming to be God. It is a one or the other situation.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
But you told me why you rejected him
Is your memory OK?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You still have not answered my question. What is this ‘middle’ you say I am trying to make?
God IS.
God IS Father, Son, Holy Sprit
God IS Three Persons, One Being.
God IS Beyond the bounds of logic.
God IS Supra-rational.
Do we really expect our little finite brains to understand this? It is those who want this to be logical, those who think that this could ever be logical --- who are displaying illogicality.
“Here are two mysteries for the price of one — the plurality of persons within the unity of God, and the union of Godhead and manhood in the person of Jesus”. J.I. Packer
***
Can you show me where Jesus, in Mark, implies that He is not God? And please make sure you get the context right.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nothing in the Scriptures supports Jesus being God. Logic tells us that Jesus cannot be God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You do not seem to understand the rule of the excluded middle. There cannot be one. You are trying t make one with your claims.
Actually God IS Supra-irrational.
That is the muddle that I was talking about. Now this raises a question. I know that you believe that your faith is rational. Why is your faith rational?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yes, and you persisted in your error. My memory is fine. You have a very hard time admitting when you are wrong.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Your rejection of WLC is not MY error.
When I am wrong I will admit it, unlike you, SZ
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
It makes absolute spiritual sense to me. When I was an atheist I believed that I was rational, but now I know that, spiritually, I am rational.
(I know that you will not understand this, because I have been where you are).
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
**************
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, God is rational, it is the Christian beliefs about God that are Supra-irrational.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
LOL!! I see that you are still confused. Your use of him was an error. You could try to make his arguments for yourself, and get laughed at. But when you link to a poor source and pretend that you have made a point you have made a false appeal to authority fallacy. You should look into why people that see though his smoke screens laugh at him.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Wait a second. You are going to start with a fail? Once again there are parts of the Bible that you would be better off pretending did not exist. For one thing Jesus was never called Manny. Second, that was not even a prophesy, it was an event that was happening at that time and third, the word was not "virgin" in the original. The author of Matthew spoke and wrote in Greek. The Septuagint had an interpretation error in it. And when the author of Matthew went fishing for prophecies he abused that mistranslated word.
Are you just going to abuse non-prophecies?
I guess so.
Hey! Something else from the New Testament. Of course not by Peter. Not much help there.
And I already said that in John Jesus was God. That was not the case in Mark. Or Luke. And since your Matthew verse is fails on several levels even that does not help you.
Are you paying attention? If you were you would have seen that we agree about the claims in John and you would not have bothered to post them.