samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Yes, the FACT is that I do not "almost always have to try to distort the claims of others."
I'm afraid that SZ simply does not know how to support a claim like this.
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
I'm afraid that SZ simply does not know how to support a claim like this.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Here is another good website.
Jesus Said He’d Return Soon, So Where Is He?
"It’s fairly easy to comb through the New Testament superficially and gather a lot of texts together that seem to indicate a false teaching about how quickly the second coming of Jesus would happen. But if you take each one, each text or each group of texts carefully, patiently, and study it out with the help of those who have perhaps given more thought to it, what I have found is that there are explanations of how to understand those texts that do not impute error or false prophecy to what Jesus or the apostles taught.
Read Carefully
That’s my first suggestion. Don’t be superficial and simply gather a lot of texts together and impute to them something that they may not want to say. They may sound, on the face of it, incriminating about Jesus and his apostles, but individually, carefully, patiently studied out, you may find yourself regretting any conclusion like that.
Maybe the best thing I could do would be to just give five pointers to the kind of solutions you will find if you study these out.
That’s the way I think we should read something like 1 Peter 4:7, “The end of all things is at hand,” or James 5:8, “The coming of the Lord is at hand.” Or like Jesus says, he is at the gates (Matthew 24:33). That is, he has appeared. He has fought the decisive victory. He has shown himself sovereign and unstoppable in the resurrection. He has fulfilled vast amounts of Old Testament prophecy concerning the end time. He may step in whenever he pleases. That’s the way I think we should understand “near,” “at the gates,” “at hand.”
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I have started over. Let's see what happens.You two would have to both agree to start over and forget the past and not bring it up again. Counseling 101.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Coming SoonHere is another good website.
Jesus Said He’d Return Soon, So Where Is He?
"It’s fairly easy to comb through the New Testament superficially and gather a lot of texts together that seem to indicate a false teaching about how quickly the second coming of Jesus would happen. But if you take each one, each text or each group of texts carefully, patiently, and study it out with the help of those who have perhaps given more thought to it, what I have found is that there are explanations of how to understand those texts that do not impute error or false prophecy to what Jesus or the apostles taught.
Read Carefully
That’s my first suggestion. Don’t be superficial and simply gather a lot of texts together and impute to them something that they may not want to say. They may sound, on the face of it, incriminating about Jesus and his apostles, but individually, carefully, patiently studied out, you may find yourself regretting any conclusion like that.
Maybe the best thing I could do would be to just give five pointers to the kind of solutions you will find if you study these out.
That’s the way I think we should read something like 1 Peter 4:7, “The end of all things is at hand,” or James 5:8, “The coming of the Lord is at hand.” Or like Jesus says, he is at the gates (Matthew 24:33). That is, he has appeared. He has fought the decisive victory. He has shown himself sovereign and unstoppable in the resurrection. He has fulfilled vast amounts of Old Testament prophecy concerning the end time. He may step in whenever he pleases. That’s the way I think we should understand “near,” “at the gates,” “at hand.”
A third kind of text uses the word “soon,” like in the book of Revelation where it says, “Behold, I am coming soon” (Revelation 22:12). Now, that Greek word tachu, “soon,” does not always or necessarily mean what we ordinarily mean by the word “soon,” that is, after a short space of time. Rather, it regularly means quickly, suddenly, unexpectedly, fast.
Yes, that is what happened. Christ returned quickly, suddenly, unexpectedly, fast, like a Thief in the Night. How uncanny, I posted this one year ago to date:
Jesus Empty tomb narratives
All the Prophecies for the return of Christ have been proven fulfilled by Baha’u’llah in this book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night
Many of those prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled are delineated in this video presentation. It is quite lengthy, but you don't have to watch it all at once. It is narrated by William Sears, the man who wrote the book Thief in the Night, and his wife Marguerite.
The Time Is Unknown
Fourth, amazingly, the gospel writers taught Jesus did not know the time of his coming. Now, that in itself is a kind of problem, but that’s what it says, and we will deal with it: that the human nature of Jesus was not granted knowledge of the coming that the divine nature of Jesus had in some way, that mysterious thing is affirmed.
It says in Matthew 24:36, “Concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” Here’s the implication: that means surely we should be very slow to impute to him predictions about the coming in a certain amount of time. The Bible says he doesn’t know. What are we saying about him when we say he predicted them? Surely, he would not have said, “I am coming in this time frame” if he didn’t know. That’s not just a prediction problem; that’s a moral problem. We have a major moral issue that I am not going to impute to Jesus.
“Concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only” but the year 1844 was prophesied by Daniel.
Daniel accurately predicted the first coming of Christ, and he also accurately predicted the second Coming of Christ, who was the Messiah the Jews have long awaited. Here are some excerpts from a chapter entitled:
10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL
The proofs are explained in this chapter, following the two paragraphs below.
“All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.
In the religion of Muḥammad there is the promise of the Mihdí and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts.
Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 39-40
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not believe that Jesus should have been more straight talking because if He had been how could the wheat have ever been separated from the chaff?
I never said that the light of God goes out, but it sure has gone dim in case you have not noticed and that is why God’s light is renewed in every age.
If for one moment God’s mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. God’s grace and mercy come into the world by means of the Messengers of God who bring the Holy Spirit and a “message” mankind needs for its present-day situation in order to survive and thrive. Whether people believe in them or not, no one has ever escaped these Messengers and they have never been hindered from achieving their purpose. They have been sent from eternity, and they will continue to succeed each other for eternity. The Grace of God can never cease from flowing.
The fact that people are “unaware” of this does not mean it is not a reality. One who does not know God’s Messengers is like a plant growing in the shade. It is unaware of the sun but is nevertheless totally dependent upon the sun. The great Messengers of God are like spirit suns. If they had not warmed and vivified the world the world would be cold and dead. The former suns have set upon the horizon. They can no longer vivify the world. The sun of this day is Baha’u’llah and He alone can ripen the fruits.
Spiritual circumstances do not change but life circumstances on earth do change and that is one reason that God sends a new Messenger in every age. Referring to the great religions that have been revealed by God, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
His cross sacrifice was for all people of every age, but after the cross Jesus ascended to heaven, He did not come back to life. The resurrection stories are just stories men wrote about Jesus which resulted in a superfluous belief that has nothing to do with the actual mission of Jesus.
No, the Christian message of salvation only through Jesus is not the message for this new age. Salvation now comes through Baha’u’llah, but for Baha’is it is an absolute requirement that we also believe in Jesus.
“No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
Moreover we do not need a Triune God because such a God does not exist. All we need is the one true God who sent us the Manifestations of His Divine glory who have renewed the eternal religion of God in every age.
“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 174
So now are you saying that we are all saved even if we do not believe in Jesus or God? That does not sound like a Christian talking.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I said embedded because I guess I was thinking of some verses that were spoken as parables whereas other verses were more straightforward.
I thought you might say that, but since Baha’u’llah is the same Spirit of Jesus He was just bringing to remembrance what Jesus said thus fulfilling the prophecy in John 14:26.
John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
By the way, the Comforter was not the Holy Spirit that was sent by Jesus to live inside of Christians. Those verses show that the Comforter is a person (he) that God would send in Jesus’ name. A Holy Spirit cannot teach or bring anything to remembrance; only a person can do that. Baha’u’llah taught all things and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said in the Bible.
I guess we will just have to wait and see if he steps up to bat.I wonder when SZ is going to show us his proof that the Bible is a book of myths? Will it be hours, days, years?
There are some mythical stories in the Bible but the entire Bible is not a book of myths. Had the Bible been just myths Baha’u’llah would never have said that it was God’s greatest testimony to His creatures.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Sorry – I misunderstood. I thought you felt that Jesus lack of directness in some instances led to general confusion. That must have been someone else.
***
The 'wheat' have been given the 'eyes to see'.
“Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand”. Matthew 13
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samtonga43
Well-Known Member
No. The light of God never dims, and never needs to be renewed. Remember that He is omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent. The light may be on in a room in which you are not in. You will not see it, but this does not mean there is no light, or that the light has dimmed. We have dimmed ourselves. God shines as brightly as He ever did.
Because God is changeless, each Person of the Trinity is changeless. It follows, as night follows day, that God’s message is changeless. Outward circumstances change; If God were to change, He would cease to be God.
QED
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that was me, but I say different things at different times depending upon what we are discussing. I think we were talking about how you could not understand Gleanings because of the old English style of writing and I said that likewise many people cannot understand Jesus' parables, but as I think I said, in both instances people who have eyes to see and ears to hear will be able to understand. There was a time when I could not understand Gleanings or the parables of Jesus, but now that my eyes are wide open I understand both.
That's right, the 'wheat' have been given the 'eyes to see'. Addressing the people of the Bayán, Baha'u'llah said something similar to what Jesus said:
“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure. The blind, though unable to perceive the light of the sun, are, nevertheless, capable of experiencing its continual heat. The blind in heart, however, among the people of the Bayán—and to this God is My witness—are impotent, no matter how long the Sun may shine upon them, either to perceive the radiance of its glory, or to appreciate the warmth of its rays.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 106
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Even though the Light is always there, most people do not see the Light once it grows dim, and that is why God’s Light is renewed in every age.
“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
What you have is a non sequitur.
God is changeless, but it does not logically follow that God cannot send a new Messenger with a new message. An omnipotent God can do whatever He wants to whenever He wants to do it. God sends a Messenger in every age because the circumstances of the new age require it.
“Nay, the manifold bounties of the Lord of all beings have, at all times, through the Manifestations of His Divine Essence, encompassed the earth and all that dwell therein. Not for a moment hath His grace been withheld, nor have the showers of His loving-kindness ceased to rain upon mankind. Consequently, such behavior can be attributed to naught save the petty-mindedness of such souls as tread the valley of arrogance and pride, are lost in the wilds of remoteness, walk in the ways of their idle fancy, and follow the dictates of the leaders of their faith.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18
The Jews still await the coming of their Messiah. Meanwhile, the Jews failed to recognize Jesus and they have also missed all the Manifestations of God that came after Him.
Similarly, the Christians await the return of Jesus so they failed to recognize the return of Christ when He came in the Person of Baha’u’llah. The Christians are doing exactly what the Jews are doing, waiting for something that is never going to happen.
Baha’u’llah chastised the Jews for failing to recognize Jesus and continuing to wait for the Messiah they have made in their own image.
“And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him…..And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 20-21
“Thus hath the King of eternal glory referred in His Book to the words uttered by those wanderers in the vale of remoteness and error: “‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. Nay, outstretched are both His hands!” “The hand of God is above their hands.” ........ How can He be conceived as powerless to raise up yet another Messenger after Moses? Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the path of knowledge and understanding!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 23
You are absolutely correct; Jesus will never be without life, as Jesus lives in heaven and will live forever in heaven, but Jesus is not living in a physical body, Jesus is living in a spiritual body.
Yes, I believe that the stories of Jesus rising from the grave in a physical body are untrue. How they came to be written as if Jesus really rose from the dead nobody really knows, and there are many theories.
What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
What need is there for a physical body in heaven? See 1 Corinthians 15:40-54.
God.
Yes, it is obvious to me. We cannot receive the gift that Jesus or Baha’u’llah gave us unless we accept it.
"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
What, in your opinion, would cause someone to be blind, and therefore impotent?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Spiritual blindness is caused by the clouds or veils that block one's vision.
Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of the Jews clouded their judgment and prevented them from recognizing Jesus as their Messiah. Likewise, the desires of the Christians have clouded their judgment, preventing them from recognizing Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ.
To further explain the meaning of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the Sun of Truth, which is the Manifestation of God.
Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that He did not fulfill by His Coming.
* * * * * * *
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
The Baha'i Faith is the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in this age. It is the narrow gate because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning and enter through that gate.
The religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.
Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and Jesus said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
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samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The prophecy was fulfilled when The Holy Spirit (the third Person of the Trinity) came to Christ’s followers at Pentecost. He came to stay. He never left. No replacement necessary.
I guess we will just have to wait and see if he steps up to bat.There are some mythical stories in the Bible but the entire Bible is not a book of myths.
Just wondering... have you heard of C.S. Lewis? He spoke of “Myth became Fact”.
Myth Became Fact | Redeemer Church
“And this is essentially what happened. Lewis had never been able to accept Christianity because he couldn’t understand the significance of the life and death of Jesus Christ. And Tolkien helped Lewis see that all of the things that Lewis found so attractive in the mythologies, actually could come to him through the life and death of Jesus Christ.
And essentially what Tolkien said was that the resurrection of Christ was the true myth. It had all of the imaginative power of these mythologies that had captivated Lewis’ imagination. But, with this one difference—it was historically true.”
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samtonga43
Well-Known Member
God’s light is / will be eternally bright and available. No renewal necessary.
You know, I think it may be logical to say that if God is changeless, eternal, omnipotent, and I think we both agree that He is, then His Word does not change under different circumstances.
The Messianic Jews have missed nothing, and gained everything. They know the One True God. The Triune God is eternal. His Truth is eternal, no matter the circumstances. He is God for every person in ages past and ages to come.
Maybe they failed to recognize that B. is Christ because he isn’t Christ.
How did this happen? How did God reveal to B. that he is now the Saviour?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah never claimed to be a ‘replacement’ for Jesus. I just came to finish the work that Jesus had started, so that the Kingdom of God could be built upon the Earth.
Clearly, Jesus said that He was going to send His Spirit in another man to finish the work He started.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus was not going to come back to Earth and do anything because He said His work was finished here. His work consisted of bearing witness unto the truth about God and dying on the cross for the sins and inequities of all mankind. After He did those things His work was finished on Earth.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
* * * * * * * * *
John 14:26 is not about Jesus sending His Spirit to His followers at Pentecost, as is commonly believed by Christians. The Comforter/Spirit of truth came later as it says in Acts 2
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
I have heard of C.S. Lewis, but I never heard of that book. And this is essentially what happened to me. I never believed in Christianity but the Baha’i Faith enabled me to accept Christianity, not everything that is taught by the Church, but the important stuff. So now I understand the significance of the life and death of Jesus Christ.
Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
The physical resurrection of Jesus Christ can never be proven as a historical fact, but even of it was true, why would it matter? You might want to read the thread that nPeace started regarding that: He is Risen - The Evidence
And as a result of all these new threads about the resurrection on this forum lately, I decided to start a new thread of my own:
Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, God’s Light is eternally available, but it does not help people who do not turn that light on.
That is one reason why God’s Light is renewed in every age, to remind people to turn on the Light.
That is true if you are only referring to the ‘spiritual part’ of God’s Word.
In the following passage, changeless Faith of God means that the eternal spiritual verities do not change over time.
“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136
Scriptures of various religions contain the truth because the first part of religion refers to spiritual truth and it is the same in every religion. Spiritual truth is eternal and it will never be abrogated; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love God, love your neighbor, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy.
However, these spiritual truths are renewed in every age because the human virtues noted above disappear and only the form of religion subsists.
“These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.” Some Answered Questions, p. 47
So whenever I say I believe that religion has to change in every new age to suit the times I am referring to two things:
(1) The primary message God reveals in every age which is correlated to the mission of the Prophet/Messenger.
Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind.
2) The social teachings and laws that pertain to the material world.
The second part of the religion refers to material things and it is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.
“The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, p. 48
I was not referring to the Messianic Jews who recognized Jesus; I was referring to the Jews who have not recognized Jesus. The Jews who did not recognize Jesus believe that God is One, not three, and they at least have that in their favor.
I have a video I hope you will watch, because it is well worth the time it takes to watch it. It explains how the Trinity cannot be true, among other things.
Baha’u’llah never claimed to be Christ and Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Christ. Baha’u’llah came with a NEW NAME, just as the Bible prophesied.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
I never said that Baha’u’llah has replaced Jesus as the Saviour. I only ever said that Baha’u’llah came to complete the work that Jesus had started.
God spoke to Baha’u’llah the same way He spoke to Jesus, through the Holy Spirit.
“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57
“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90
“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
2 Corinthians 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
And perhaps the desires of baha'i-ists have clouded their judgment, preventing them from recognizing Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity. Could this be possible?
You believe that B. is Jesus resurrected?
You are reading into the text again, Tb. This is a perfect example of confirmation bias.
See here..
Why did God make salvation such a narrow path? | GotQuestions.org
Eisegesis – again!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All of God’s Prophets brought Light to the world, although the intensity of the Light did differ.
Baha’u’llah explained this giving us the reasons why the intensity of the Light differs.
“The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal Himself through specific acts. It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness. Their Revelation may be likened unto the light of the moon that sheddeth its radiance upon the earth. Though every time it appeareth, it revealeth a fresh measure of its brightness, yet its inherent splendor can never diminish, nor can its light suffer extinction.
It is clear and evident, therefore, that any apparent variation in the intensity of their light is not inherent in the light itself, but should rather be attributed to the varying receptivity of an ever-changing world. Every Prophet Whom the Almighty and Peerless Creator hath purposed to send to the peoples of the earth hath been entrusted with a Message, and charged to act in a manner that would best meet the requirements of the age in which He appeared. God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 79-80
No, that is not possible because we believe in Jesus but not as the Second Person of the Trinity. Moreover as you well know, not all Christians believe in the Trinity. Why do you think it is so important for people to believe in the Trinity? Actually, by gloming God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit together you take away what was so special about each of them in their own right. We know that the Trinity belief has to be wrong because Jesus is not God. We know that Jesus is not God because, among other verses that prove it, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus, so Jesus cannot he God, end of story.
No, we do not believe that. We believe that Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send, the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. Thus Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ, the Second Coming that Christians have been waiting for.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Those verses can be applied to more than one thing. I simply applied them to one thing I believe they apply to and I see you are suggesting they apply to something else. I have no more confirmation bias then you do, so you are the pot calling the kettle black.
According to my interpretation Christianity was once the narrow gate that led to life but not anymore. When Jesus said that Christianity was the narrow gate that led to life, when there were very few Christians in the first centuries, but Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life because about 30% of the world population is now Christians. Given that Christianity is now the largest religion in the world, Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life.
Your cited article states:
“However, the gate to heaven is “narrow” in the sense of having a particular requirement for entrance—faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is found only in the Person of Jesus Christ; He is the only way (John 14:6). The “wide” gate is non-exclusive; it allows for human effort and all other of the world’s religions.”
Your article is right except that the author has the wrong person, since the requirement to get through the narrow gate in this age is faith in Baha’u’llah. So here is how it should read:
“However, the gate to heaven is “narrow” in the sense of having a particular requirement for entrance—faith in Baha’u’llah. Salvation is found only in the Person of Baha’u’llah; He is the only way. The “wide” gate is non-exclusive; it allows for human effort and all other of the world’s religions.”
“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
Eisegesis : the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas — compare exegesis.
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › eisegesis
What I did is no more eisegesis than what you or anyone else does when assignong a meaning to those verses.
Obviously Jesus was using the narrow gate as a metaphor for something. I was just explaining why a narrow gate would be difficult to get thorough.
So why would Christianity be the narrow gate? It is not difficult to get through, since you only have to believe in Jesus and believe that He died for your sins, and you do not even have to do anything else to get to heaven. Moreover, everyone on the world knows about Christianity so you don’t have to go looking for the gate, it is a gate that is very easy to locate. So what is so difficult?
Here is what your article says that Christians have to do to get through the narrow gate:
“Jesus says that the narrow gate leads to a “hard” road, one that will take us through hardships and difficult decisions. Following Jesus requires crucifying our flesh (Galatians 2:20; 5:24; Romans 6:2), living by faith (Romans 1:17; 2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 10:38), enduring trials with Christlike patience (James 1:2–3, 12; 1 Peter 1:6), and living a lifestyle separate from the world (James 1:27; Romans 12:1–2). When faced with the choice between a narrow, bumpy road and a wide, paved highway, most of us choose the easier road. Human nature gravitates toward comfort and pleasure. When faced with the reality of denying themselves to follow Jesus, most people turn away (John 6:66). Jesus never sugar-coated the truth, and the truth is that not many people are willing to pay the price to follow Him."
What he said makes me rather ill. because it is a sham! I see no Christians denying themselves, as Jesus enjoined them to do. They do not deny the flesh. They eat, drink, and have sex just like everyone else. They do not even need to follow any laws because Paul did away with the law. What a deal! Moreover, Christianity does not teach that Christians have to deny themselves, it teaches that all Christians have to do is believe in Jesus and that He died for their sins.
Can you get to heaven by faith alone?
God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9). ... Our best efforts can never be good enough to earn salvation, but God declares us righteous for Christ's sake. We receive that grace through faith alone. https://www.cui.edu › aboutcui › grace-alone-faith-alo
Now contrast that with what Baha’is have to do to get to heaven. We not only have to recognize Baha'u'llah, we have to follow all His ordinances. We cannot ever have any sex before or outside of marriage or drink any alcohol, and those are just two of the laws.
“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
The Twin Duties
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Poor analogy. New moon, half moon, full moon in one lunar month. Then brightness diminishes. This remains the same no matter how the world ‘changes’.
Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Jesus has done / is doing just this. God’s (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) purpose is fulfilled in Him. He is the Alpha and Omega.
Yes, exactly what I just said. You do not recognize Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity because your desires have clouded your judgment. (Actually, you do not recognize the Triune God because your desires have clouded your judgment).
Because it makes sense.
1+1+1=3 But God is a Triune God, so 1x1x1=1.
To me, the concept of Trinity is a mystery which makes spiritual sense to some and not to others. We cannot expect to fully understand; we’re not ‘big’ enough.
Jesus is not God the Father in the flesh, but God the Son in the flesh. When we read that “no one has ever seen God the Father…” there is no conflict whatsoever for those of us who believe in the Trinity.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I'll get to the rest later...