Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[samtonga43]

We are no longer living in the days of Jesus, this is a new Day. That is not necessary to have a modern translation because those with spiritual propensities can understand what Baha’u’llah wrote translated into Old English. After all, we understood the Bible KJV before we had modern translations.

Neither are we living in 17th century England. Who are the ‘we’ you speak of? And what about those without ‘spiritual propensities’? Are they to be cast to one side? The florid, grandiose ‘Ye Olde English’ prose of the ‘Writings’ you quote from will not encourage most people to find out more. I worked with people of the street (and still do when called upon) --- homeless, addicted and desperate for comfort. They need to know God’s love from a source right for them. These KJ-style writings need not apply.

I am asking for any verse where Jesus claimed to be God. Jesus saying He was one with God or that the Father was in Him won’t do because those do not mean that Jesus is God and those verses are not Jesus saying I am God.

So, you really do want to see the ‘actual words’. I am astounded. You treat Scripture as if it can be read as a recipe is read, or as an instruction booklet about how to knit a scarf.
You know, I'm beginning to wonder if Bahai is based to some extent on Islam. I have spoken with many Muslims, and they say what you say –“Exact words please!” But Scriptural truth is not conveyed in individual sets of words, Tb. One must seek to see the pattern, the context, the connections, the sense throughout. One must have eyes to see the meaning behind words. If you enter a meeting and are asked to “Take a chair”, you would not lift the chair and leave the room. Or would you?

Jesus did not say “I am God” because He is not God. Why can’t you face reality, it was the men at the Council of Nicaea that decided to make Jesus into God, and Jesus would have been appalled. You cannot make this work and still believe in the Bible.

I certainly can. The People of the Way knew that Jesus is the second Person of the Trinity long before Constantine came along.

The Holy Spirit was given to Jesus and Baha’u’llah and we get it from them. We are guided by the Holy Spirit but it does not "live inside" of the human body, it interacts with our soul.

Did someone say that He (not ‘it’) lives ‘inside the human body? More literalism! This displays perfectly your ignorance (unawareness) of how Christians understand the concept of the Triune God.

*****

"The persons within God exalt each other, commune with each other, and defer to one another. . . . Each divine person harbors the others at the center of his being. In constant movement of overture and acceptance, each person envelops and encircles the others. . . . God’s interior life [therefore] overflows with regard for others".

Cornelius Plantinga

 

[Trailblazer]

Neither are we living in 17th century England.

And so? Don’t people read and understand Shakespeare anymore? Does it NEED to be retranslated into modern English?

William Shakespeare/Languages
English

The language in which Shakespeare wrote is referred to as Early Modern English, a linguistic period that lasted from approximately 1500 to 1750. The language spoken during this period is often referred to as Elizabethan English or Shakespearian English.Oct 16, 2013

Shakespeare's Influence on Modern English & Pronunciation

Who are the ‘we’ you speak of?

The entire human race. Nobody is living in the days of Jesus anymore, this is a new Day of God.

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60

And what about those without ‘spiritual propensities’? Are they to be cast to one side?

The message is there for people who really want it. However, one has to be seeking in order to find the message. Those who seek are rewarded.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Jesus explained why some people understand His parables and others do not. Why would it be any different for the Writings of Baha’u’llah?

Matthew 13:16-17 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The florid, grandiose ‘Ye Olde English’ prose of the ‘Writings’ you quote from will not encourage most people to find out more.

That does not matter because if they don’t like Baha’u’llah’s Writings then they can read the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha. That is what I did before I became a Baha’i and after, for many years, because I could not grasp the deeper meanings of what Baha’u’llah wrote back in those days since I had no background in religion.

Most of the subjects that a seeker would be looking to read about are in Bahá’í World Faith

I am going to pick a paragraph from one page out of the book for an example:

“There is however another spirit which may be termed the divine, to which Jesus Christ refers when He declares that man must be born of its quickening and baptized with its living fire. Souls deprived of that spirit are accounted as dead, though they are possessed of the human spirit. His Holiness Jesus Christ has pronounced them dead inasmuch as they have no portion of the divine spirit. He says: “Let the dead bury their dead.” In another instance He declares: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.” By this He means that souls though alive in the human kingdom are nevertheless dead if devoid of this particular spirit of divine quickening. They have not partaken of the divine life of the higher kingdom; for the soul which partakes of the power of the divine spirit is verily living.” Bahá’í World Faith, p.261

How very odd that from the whole book I just happened to pick this page…I must have been led by the Holy Spirit.

I am sure that I read this many years ago but I don’t even remember it. Mind you, back in those days I knew nothing about Jesus or Christianity so it would not have meant much to me…. Now it means everything to me.

If you want the context you can read the whole page on this link: THE QUICKENING SPIRIT

So, you really do want to see the ‘actual words’. I am astounded. You treat Scripture as if it can be read as a recipe is read, or as an instruction booklet about how to knit a scarf.

I am asking you for actual words because evidence is everything when you make a claim, especially a bold claim… Just ask SZ.

Deciphering the meanings words and verses is no longer necessary to do with the Writings of Baha’u’llah because He was a straight shooter, too straightforward some people… He never minced words like Jesus did, expecting people to “guess” what He meant. For example:

“They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

You might not like the style of the language but that is a moot point, because the message is as clear as the noonday sun in Arizona. And that brings me to another point… It is precisely because Jesus was not direct that many got what he said all wrong, such an believing Jesus was God or that Jesus was a king who was coming back to build a kingdom of God on earth. For example, like at how Jesus did not answer directly, (yes I am a king or no, I am not a king):

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus was saying that He was not a king, but rather that He came into the world to bear witness to the truth about God, yet most Christians still insist Jesus was a king who would return and build the kingdom of God on earth!

And again in Matthew 24, Jesus avoided answering when asked what will be the sign of His coming. He never said He was going to return at all; He said that others would come claiming to be Christ and deceive many:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I am NOT saying I do not like Jesus’ style of communicating, but if I was an atheist I would never be able to get the message He was trying to convey. It is only because I have read what Baha’u’llah wrote that I can now go back and read the New Testament and understand what Jesus said, since the spiritual message is essentially the same.

And now I just remembered another thing, that Holy Spirit is working overtime today… Jesus said that when He returned He would shew us plainly of the Father, and that is exactly what Baha’u’llah did in His Writings. In John 16:25 Jesus is referring to when His Spiirt (the Christ Spirit) would return in the person of Baha’u’llah, who told us plainly about the Father.

John 16:25

KJV
These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

NASB
“These things I have spoken to you in figures of speech; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech, but will tell you plainly about the Father.

NIV
“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

I certainly can. The People of the Way knew that Jesus is the second Person of the Trinity long before Constantine came along.

Even if they believed they knew that so what? That was not believed by the Christians in the first century and you must know that.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Did someone say that He (not ‘it’) lives ‘inside the human body? More literalism! This displays perfectly your ignorance (unawareness) of how Christians understand the concept of the Triune God.

You are dead wrong about that. I well understand that Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a He and not an it, but Baha’is do not believe in Persons of the Trinity and that is why I said what I said. Nonetheless I should not have referred to the Holy Spirit as an it. You should know that I was once an active member of a forum called The Holy Trinity. However, the forum owner would not allow me to talk about the Baha’i Faith so I left that forum.

"The persons within God exalt each other, commune with each other, and defer to one another. . . . Each divine person harbors the others at the center of his being. In constant movement of overture and acceptance, each person envelops and encircles the others. . . . God’s interior life [therefore] overflows with regard for others".

Cornelius Plantinga

There are no “Persons” within God and this doctrine cannot be supported by the Bible in any way. Why do you cling to it, because that is what you were taught? Probably someone told you it made sense, and you just learned to think of God that way…. How sad. There were Christians on The Holy Trinity forum that rejected the Trinity doctrine but they were allowed to debate with other Christians on that forum because they were Christians and not Baha’is.

It is true that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit work together as a team, but the Son and the Holy Spirit are not part of God. That is explained in this chapter I suggest you read: 27: THE TRINITY

 

[samtonga43]

And so? Don’t people read and understand Shakespeare anymore? Does it NEED to be retranslated into modern English?

False equivalence
False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons – Effectiviology

The entire human race.

No, not that ‘we’. The second ‘we’. Who are the ‘we’ who understood the Bible KJV before we had modern translations?

The message is there for people who really want it. However, one has to be seeking in order to find the message. Those who seek are rewarded.

When I read (past tense) the Bible for the first time I was seeking ammunition (inconsistencies and irrationality) to direct at Christians. I knew that I would never believe a word of it. So you are correct; I was rewarded. My reward was the greatest gift of all -- the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Jesus explained why some people understand His parables and others do not. Why would it be any different for the Writings of Baha’u’llah?

Are there parables in your ‘Writings’?

That does not matter because if they don’t like Baha’u’llah’s Writings then they can read the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha. That is what I did before I became a Baha’i and after, for many years, because I could not grasp the deeper meanings of what Baha’u’llah wrote back in those days since I had no background in religion.

If they are put off by B.’s writings, very few will read anything else. Instead, they will say “This religion is not for me”.

I am asking you for actual words because evidence is everything when you make a claim, especially a bold claim… Just ask SZ.

Evidence is a lot more that actual words, Tb, unless, as I said, you wish to bake a cake or paint by numbers. Real evidence of spiritual truths is not found by cherry-picking.

Deciphering the meanings words and verses is no longer necessary to do with the Writings of Baha’u’llah because He was a straight shooter, too straightforward some people… He never minced words like Jesus did, expecting people to “guess” what He meant.

Do you have some examples of these ‘minced words’ of Jesus?

You might not like the style of the language but that is a moot point, because the message is as clear as the noonday sun in Arizona.

Not if the style obscures the message.

And that brings me to another point… It is precisely because Jesus was not direct that many got what he said all wrong, such an believing Jesus was God or that Jesus was a king who was coming back to build a kingdom of God on earth. For example, like at how Jesus did not answer directly, (yes I am a king or no, I am not a king):

Have you never wondered why he did not answer directly? Could it be that his non-answer taught Pilate something? Maybe something about Truth?

And again in Matthew 24, Jesus avoided answering when asked what will be the sign of His coming. He never said He was going to return at all; He said that others would come claiming to be Christ and deceive many:

And He was correct.

I am NOT saying I do not like Jesus’ style of communicating, but if I was an atheist I would never be able to get the message He was trying to convey.

I did. And I am not alone. The Holy Spirit never fails, Tb.

It is only because I have read what Baha’u’llah wrote that I can now go back and read the New Testament and understand what Jesus said, since the spiritual message is essentially the same.

I’ll stay with the Word of God.

And now I just remembered another thing, that Holy Spirit is working overtime today… Jesus said that when He returned He would shew us plainly of the Father, and that is exactly what Baha’u’llah did in His Writings. In John 16:25 Jesus is referring to when His Spiirt (the Christ Spirit) would return in the person of Baha’u’llah, who told us plainly about the Father.

LOL! What a wonderful example of eisegesis.

Even if they believed they knew that so what? That was not believed by the Christians in the first century and you must know that.

You believe you know. So what?
The early Christians believed God to have directly intervened in history in the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit. The creedal statements presented a formal understanding of that belief. Trinitarians do not consider the writings of the Fathers to be inspired by God, and therefore are not authoritative with regard to doctrine.
Were Early Christians Trinitarians? | Monergism

You are dead wrong about that. I well understand that Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a He and not an it, but Baha’is do not believe in Persons of the Trinity and that is why I said what I said. Nonetheless I should not have referred to the Holy Spirit as an it.

I am glad you agree.

There are no “Persons” within God and this doctrine cannot be supported by the Bible in any way. Why do you cling to it, because that is what you were taught? Probably someone told you it made sense, and you just learned to think of God that way….

Last sentence = False assumption.

 

[Trailblazer]

False equivalence
False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons – Effectiviology

Why?

No, not that ‘we’. The second ‘we’. Who are the ‘we’ who understood the Bible KJV before we had modern translations?

Anyone reading it who wanted to understand it.

When I read (past tense) the Bible for the first time I was seeking ammunition (inconsistencies and irrationality) to direct at Christians. I knew that I would never believe a word of it. So you are correct; I was rewarded. My reward was the greatest gift of all -- the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

My reward came when I recognized Baha’u’llah, the greatest gift of all -- the Way, the Truth, and the Life for this age. I did not know what I ever did to deserve such a blessing as I was not even seeking God or looking for a religion at that time. For this blessing I owe God a life of service to His Cause.

Baha'u'llah in His Writings expressed that those who have joined the Cause have done something in the past that enabled them to receive this gift.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

Are there parables in your ‘Writings’?

Yes, there are some in this little book. The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys

These are two works written in Baghdad after Bahá’u’lláh returned from Kurdistan in 1856. The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys were addressed to Sufi mystics with whom He had been in contact in Sulaymáníyyih.

If they are put off by B.’s writings, very few will read anything else. Instead, they will say “This religion is not for me”.

That’s fine of they choose to do that, but if they meet the criteria for a true seeker they will not do that, but rather they will keep seeking until they find the truth. There is no reason why they cannot read the Writings of Abdu’l- Baha; that is what they are there for!

Tablet of the True Seeker

Evidence is a lot more that actual words, Tb, unless, as I said, you wish to bake a cake or paint by numbers. Real evidence of spiritual truths is not found by cherry-picking.

Nor is spiritual found by discarding the Writings of Baha’u’llah simply because you do not like the style of language. Actually, to have it translated any other way would have ruined it. I much prefer the KJV to the NIV.

Do you have some examples of these ‘minced words’ of Jesus?

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Not if the style obscures the message.

Style cannot obscure it. It might just take some work but the message is there.
Give me an example of something in Gleanings you cannot understand. Here is the link:

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Have you never wondered why he did not answer directly? Could it be that his non-answer taught Pilate something? Maybe something about Truth?

Yes, maybe it taught Pilate something, but at what expense to others who would read the Bible? Being evasive did not help people who would LATER read the Bible. For example, if Jesus had clearly said “I am not God” and “I am not a king” then people living now would not believe that Jesus was God or that He was a king who would return someday and come to rule, as most Christians believe.

And He was correct.

Yes, He was correct: List of people claimed to be Jesus

Many people have been deceived by men who came claiming to be the return of Christ, but Baha’u’llah never made that claim.

I did. And I am not alone. The Holy Spirit never fails, Tb.

Fair enough.

I’ll stay with the Word of God.

So will I, but I will be staying with the Word of God that Baha’u’llah has revealed for this age and Dispensation.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

LOL! What a wonderful example of eisegesis.

No, that is what Christians do.

You believe you know. So what?

The early Christians believed God to have directly intervened in history in the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit. The creedal statements presented a formal understanding of that belief. Trinitarians do not consider the writings of the Fathers to be inspired by God, and therefore are not authoritative with regard to doctrine.
Were Early Christians Trinitarians? | Monergism

God the Father did directly intervene in history with the Son and Spirit, but God is not three Persons. God is One.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! two questions and a fact doth not demands make.

What "fact"? And yes, when posed in this fashion they are a demand:

"You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works."

And as explained before, until you enter into a polite conversation that rule does not apply. That is a rule that people that are having a rational discussion need to follow. Until you enter into one I will simply remind you that the evidence you seek is in this thread. Once again we do not even need to refer to your previous failures. Until you agree to discuss politely it only looks like you are trolling by ignoring evidence when presented and making demands of others when you refuse to apply the same standards to yourself.

Agree to a polite discussion and those rules will apply from that time on.

 

[Muffled]

Well, it's the Holy Sprit's job to to direct them to it, isn't it?

I believe that is the way it worked with me although I didn't realize it at the time.

 

[Muffled]

“A God made up of three parts”?
These are the words of someone who is shackled by literalism.

The person who says that the Trinity is ‘logical’ and that they have ‘proof’ of this, knows nothing about the Trinity.

I believe God is not made of three parts.

I believe the Trinity is logical.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I believe that is the way it worked with me although I didn't realize it at the time.

Was it the HS or you just having a lightbulb turn on over your head. We're getting into very subjective territory here.

 

[samtonga43]

Why?

Original work vs translation.

Anyone reading it who wanted to understand it.

And what do you say to those who wanted to understand but could not because of all the doths and doests and cansts, and shambles and scrips -- and soest on and soest on?

My reward came when I recognized Baha’u’llah, the greatest gift of all -- the Way, the Truth, and the Life for this age. I did not know what I ever did to deserve such a blessing as I was not even seeking God or looking for a religion at that time. For this blessing I owe God a life of service to His Cause.

God’s message is eternal, Tb. For everyone, always, no matter the date.

Baha'u'llah in His Writings expressed that those who have joined the Cause have done something in the past that enabled them to receive this gift.

B. was wrong. The gift I was given was given freely. I did nothing (could do nothing) to ‘earn’ it.

Yes, there are some in this little book. The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys

https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/
Can you outline just one of these parables in ordinary language? Thanks.

That’s fine of they choose to do that, but if they meet the criteria for a true seeker they will not do that, but rather they will keep seeking until they find the truth. There is no reason why they cannot read the Writings of Abdu’l- Baha; that is what they are there for!

If they are truly seeking, why not read an up-to-date version of the Bible? That’s what it’s there for.

Nor is spiritual found by discarding the Writings of Baha’u’llah simply because you do not like the style of language. Actually, to have it translated any other way would have ruined it. I much prefer the KJV to the NIV.

"Ruined it"? The same message in different words would ruin the message? I'm surprised you would admit to believing such a thing.
Btw, for accuracy and readability, it’s the ESV first, and the NASB second.

John 18:37

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Sorry, I don’t understand. How are you using the word ‘minced’?

Style cannot obscure it.

I disagree.

Give me an example of something in Gleanings you cannot understand.

The following is just a random example. There are hundreds upon hundreds more:
"O Ḥusayn! Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imám-Ḥusayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá’im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory. These holy ones have, moreover, announced that when He Who is the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God manifesteth Himself, all the Prophets and Messengers, including the Qá’im, will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One will raise. That hour is now come. The world is illumined with the effulgent glory of His countenance".

Yes, maybe it taught Pilate something, but at what expense to others who would read the Bible? Being evasive did not help people who would LATER read the Bible. For example, if Jesus had clearly said “I am not God” and “I am not a king” then people living now would not believe that Jesus was God or that He was a king who would return someday and come to rule, as most Christians believe.

Exactly. People living now would not believe a lie.

So will I, but I will be staying with the Word of God that Baha’u’llah has revealed for this age and Dispensation.

God’s message is eternal, Tb. For everyone, always, no matter the date.

No, that is what Christians do.

Sometimes, but never to the extent you just have.

God the Father did directly intervene in history with the Son and Spirit, but God is not three Persons. God is One.

ONE Being, THREE Persons.
What is the best analogy of the Holy Trinity? - Quora
***
You may have answered this question previously, Tb, but I can’t remember, so I’ll ask again. What connection, if any, does your religion have with Islam?

 

[samtonga43]

Was it the HS or you just having a lightbulb turn on over your head. We're getting into very subjective territory here.

Light turning on is a good analogy. One can, at last, see clearly.

 

[samtonga43]

What "fact"? And yes, when posed in this fashion they are a demand:
"You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works."[/QUOTE]

What fact? See immediately above
(I have bolded the words). Not a demand; just the way it is.
A fact.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! @samtonga43, I see that you do not understand a demand when you make one. And no, that "fact" only applies to people that are having a polite conversation. So far you have refused to enter into one.

 

[samtonga43]

LOL! @samtonga43, I see that you do not understand a demand when you make one. And no, that "fact" only applies to people that are having a polite conversation. So far you have refused to enter into one.

Perhaps I should re-phrase my
"You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works."
The "you" is a generic pronoun. Everything is not about YOU, SZ.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps I should re-phrase my
"You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works."
The "you" is a generic pronoun. Everything is not about YOU, SZ.

It appears that you have a problem with the proper use of context as well.

And that was still not a fact. That only applies at specific times. You are still wrong. Why am I not surprised?

 

[samtonga43]

It appears that you have a problem with the proper use of context as well.

I have no problem at all with the correct use of context, SZ. Once again, everything that appears to you to be so --- well, it ain’t necessarily so.

And that was still not a fact.

It appears that you are unable to separate fact from fiction. I’d be worried if I were you, SZ.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have no problem at all with the correct use of context, SZ. Once again, everything that appears to you to be so --- well, it ain’t necessarily so.

It appears that you are unable to separate fact from fiction. I’d be worried if I were you, SZ.

That is demonstrably false. You may think that you had an implied context. But you did not. You are only pretending to have one.

And someone that believes a book of myths is accusing me of having trouble with reality. Oh the irony!

 

[Trailblazer]

And what do you say to those who wanted to understand but could not because of all the doths and doests and cansts, and shambles and scrips -- and soest on and soest on?

I would say the same thing that Jesus said about those who could not understand His parables.

To conceal truth: Jesus explained, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive'” (Mt.May 28, 2020)
8 reasons Jesus preached in parables | Daily Mountain Eagle

God’s message is eternal, Tb. For everyone, always, no matter the date.

That is true, but the caveat is that God’s message is renewed in every age in a manner that is suited to the circumstances of that age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Humanity already got the message that Jesus died for our sins, so we do not have to hear it over and over again. This is a new age and God has revealed a new message through Baha’u’llah, a message that was needed for this age.

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121

B. was wrong. The gift I was given was given freely. I did nothing (could do nothing) to ‘earn’ it.

Your gift might have been given freely but mine wasn’t.

Can you outline just one of these parables in ordinary language? Thanks.

The parables are embedded in that book so I cannot just grab a parable as you would grab one from the Bible, but here is a parable from Gleanings that can stand alone:

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261

That is very similar to what Jesus said, as the eternal spiritual truths such as Truth about God, never change.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

If they are truly seeking, why not read an up-to-date version of the Bible? That’s what it’s there for.

Because the Bible does not contain the ‘latest message’ from God, so it is not up to date.

"Ruined it"? The same message in different words would ruin the message?

I'm surprised you would admit to believing such a thing.
Btw, for accuracy and readability, it’s the ESV first, and the NASB second.

Why not the NIV?

Another translation would not ruin it but it would take the beauty away from it, just like the newer Bible translations take the beauty away from the KJV.

Sorry, I don’t understand. How are you using the word ‘minced’?

I meant that Jesus was not direct. If Jesus had been direct, Jesus would have answered “No, I am not a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth”

Had Jesus been direct, when the disciples asked “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Jesus would have answered that question, but instead Jesus said “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” Please note that Jesus did not say the “He” was coming, He said not to be deceived by those who would come claiming to be Christ. There have been many such men, but Baha’u’llah was not one of them, as He came with a new name, just as the Bible prophesied:

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The following is just a random example. There are hundreds upon hundreds more:
"O Ḥusayn! Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imám-Ḥusayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá’im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory. These holy ones have, moreover, announced that when He Who is the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God manifesteth Himself, all the Prophets and Messengers, including the Qá’im, will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One will raise. That hour is now come. The world is illumined with the effulgent glory of His countenance".

I would not expect anyone who was not a Baha’i to understand what that paragraph means, since Gleanings was not compiled for the purpose of being an introduction to the Baha’i Faith.

In order to understand quote you would have to know the context, such as who Baha’u’llah was this man Ḥusayn that Baha'u'llah was addressing, and who was the return of Imám-Ḥusayn whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá’im, had been prophesied. Baha’u’llah is referring to Himself, but I know that because I know that Baha’u’llah was the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God who manifested Himself, and I know that all the Prophets and Messengers will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One (Baha’u’llah) has raised.

There are many verses and chapters in the Bible that I do not understand because I never read the entire Bible and I was never a Christian. I know what certain verses mean because they were explained by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, and I know what other verses mean because I know that verses that refer to the coming of the Messiah or the return of Christ are referring to Baha’u’llah.

Exactly. People living now would not believe a lie.

The lie that Christianity teaches is that Jesus was God and that Jesus was a king who would return someday. Jesus does not lie and that is why Jesus never said he was a God or a king.

God’s message is eternal, Tb. For everyone, always, no matter the date.

See above.

You may have answered this question previously, Tb, but I can’t remember, so I’ll ask again. What connection, if any, does your religion have with Islam?

The connection that the Baha’i Faith has with Islam is similar to the connection that Christianity has with Judaism. Baha’u’llah was born a Muslim just as Jesus was born a Jew, but just as Christianity is a new religion separate from Judaism, the Baha’i Faith is a new religion separate from Islam. The reason they are all separate religions is because they all had their own Messengers -- Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah – and all those Messengers received separate and new Revelations from God.

 

[samtonga43]

That is demonstrably false. You may think that you had an implied context. But you did not. You are only pretending to have one.

Demonstrably? In that case, please demonstrate how it is false (N.B. A question, not a demand). LOL! You make this too easy, SZ.

And someone that believes a book of myths is accusing me of having trouble with reality. Oh the irony!

A book of myths?
Do you have evidence that I believe a book of myths? (NB A question, not a demand).
In any case, I do not believe in a
book of myths. That is a false assumption.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Demonstrably? In that case, please demonstrate how it is false (N.B. A question, not a demand). LOL! You make this too easy, SZ.

A book of myths?
Do you have evidence that I believe a book of myths? (NB A question, not a demand).
In any case, I do not believe in a
book of myths. That is a false assumption.

All I have to do is to quote your post again. The demands were clear. Trying to claim that you were using poor English is a weak excuse.

And of course I can prove that the Bible is a book of myths. I am pretty sure that you will merely go back to that favorite stream of yours. For someone that is constantly demanding evidence you do not seem to present any. Denial is not evidence.

But it is nice to see you admit not to believing in the Bible. I could have sworn that you did.

 

[samtonga43]

All I have to do is to quote your post again. The demands were clear. Trying to claim that you were using poor English is a weak excuse.

“The demands were clear” only to you, SZ, so this means nothing.
I used the generic ‘you’ because I knew that most people would understand the difference between a generic pronoun and a specific one. I forgot to take into consideration your language comprehension problem. For this I apologize. I’ll try another way: "The person who makes the claim produces the evidence. That’s how it works."
Do you understand now?

And of course I can prove that the Bible is a book of myths.

No, you can’t. You may think you have evidence that the Bible is a book of myths. But you cannot prove it. Once again you highlight your ignorance concerning epistemology (the theory of knowledge)
But do give it a go, SZ! I would so enjoy watching you trying to prove that the Bible is a book of myths.

But it is nice to see you admit not to believing in the Bible. I could have sworn that you did.

LOL! Just another example of your consistent failure of comprehension.
And another strawman. Tsk!