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Jesus: God or not? (Christians only)

Jesus: a god or not.

  • Jesus was only created, when Mary conceived. (Which mean, he didn't exist before he was born.)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    39

gnostic

The Lost One
For Christians only…. (although, I may post here, since I've created this thread…or can I?)

This is about Jesus being god or not. Some Christians view him as God himself. I think others view him as separate. So….

Is Jesus a god, as being actually Yahweh? Where the Father and Son are actually ONE.

Or is Jesus the God's avatar or incarnation on earth?

Is Jesus a separate entity, a Son, and God is the Father, in the literal sense of the words of Father and Son?

There are a lot of confusion to Jesus' status, because Jesus was called the "Son of God", in the bible; the gospels showed that he talk of god, as if he and God were separate beings. And the reference to Jesus actually "being a God" is mostly implied in John's gospel's 1st chapter.


I want to see how many view him as being a full god, demi-god, or just human.



Don't forget to vote on the poll.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Here are some threads that have been started already, check them out.

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Jesus is God?
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Did Jesus say he was God???
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I'd like to vote that Jesus is fully God and yet was only created in the womb of Mary. However, I can't choose two things for the poll.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Don't you just hate it when you give people a dozen choices, and they pick "None of the above"? Sorry, that drives me nuts when I start a poll and get a bunch of people voting, "None of the above." The closest choice to my own personal belief was "Jesus is not God, but he is God's son (in a literal sense; hence a demi-god)." I could almost have voted that way, but the word "demi-god" bothered me. I'll tell you how I, as a Latter-day Saint, view Jesus, and you can decide whether demi-god applies.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.

We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person."

The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.

Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Katzpur said:
It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity.
Actually, Katzpur, I understood what you have explained so far, perfectly.

Your scenario makes more sense than God and Jesus being a single physical being, but I understand this scenario. If God is supposed to be all-powerful and present everywhere, as a lot of Christians think, then we can't limit God.

Katzpur said:
The closest choice to my own personal belief was "Jesus is not God, but he is God's son (in a literal sense; hence a demi-god)." I could almost have voted that way, but the word "demi-god" bothered me.
I don't understand why it should bother you.

Demi-god means have one parent mortal, and the other immortal; or part god, part human. According to the gospels (Matthew and Luke), Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Regardless, if any intercourse takes place, Jesus is essentially a demi-god.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
dunemeister said:
I'd like to vote that Jesus is fully God and yet was only created in the womb of Mary. However, I can't choose two things for the poll.
Actually you can vote more than one. It is a multiple choice poll.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Your scenario makes more sense than God and Jesus being a single physical being, but I understand this scenario. If God is supposed to be all-powerful and present everywhere, as a lot of Christians think, then we can't limit God.
People get really hung up on the idea that a physical being can't be all-powerful. Jesus was all-powerful when He was here on earth. He had only to command the elements to "be still" and they obeyed. It wouldn't have mattered if He'd been on the Sea of Galalie or on the other side of the world. The fact that He had a body did not limit him in the slightest. Besides, the Holy Ghost is the non-physical part of the Godhead. As a spirit, the Holy Ghost can literally be everywhere at once. We believe that God's power extends everywhere, even if He is "in Heaven."

I don't understand why it should bother you.

Demi-god means have one parent mortal, and the other immortal; or part god, part human. According to the gospels (Matthew and Luke), Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Regardless, if any intercourse takes place, Jesus is essentially a demi-god.
Okay, well I don't believe intercourse was involved, but I do believe that Jesus' Father was God (a divine being) and that His mother was Mary (a mortal being). I just try to be careful about which words I use to describe my beliefs as it seems as if there is always someone sitting in the wings, waiting to spot one word they think they can use to label me as some sort of evil heretic. "Demi-god" is definitely not a word we Latter-day Saints use to describe Jesus Christ, but as long as I've made my beliefs clear, if that word suits you, I'm okay with it.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
I choose the first one, since I believe that he's not an incarnation but actually God in human form.

A major puzzle for me in Messianic Prophecy is this one: "the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone" (Isaiah 28:16)

At the very least, even if Jesus Christ himself is not God, he is meant to be a metaphor for God Himself. Mankind rejected God. In response, he sent the Messiah to save them in spite of this rejection. And through the rejection of that avatar (by death on the cross) grace itself returned us to God. So you see, clearly the Messiah is meant to signify and embody God's relationship with humanity.

Now, couple this with the concept of Jesus "sitting on the right hand of God", being treated by the disciples as "Lord", and Jesus himself saying that he is, in fact, God, with the power to forgive sins (something only God Himself could do, as High Judge of creation).

It seems to make the most sense that, for all intents and purposes, Christ would in fact be God.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I believe that Jesus was God on earth as a full human while He was on earth. Since The Son of God would be God and there is only one God then Jesus had to be God by my way of thinking.
 

Mr. Peanut

Active Member
I believe in the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ. I believe there is only one God made of three distinct persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Mathew says, "his name shall be called "Emmanuel", which being interpreted means "God with us".
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I don't believe that there are human words which can express the true relationship between God, Jesus and the Spirit. God chose small words so that we could understand as much as possible. Fortunately, there is no need to fully understand this relationship in order to love each other and God.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
I was forced to vote for other as the options do not ask if Jesus is God - one Person in the Trinity.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
The 'word of God' was the first born of all creation. The 'word' preceeded Yeshua by about 4,000 years. So 'close' only counts in 'Horseshoes', Yoccanon expressed the beginning from the SOD level of understanding. Hidden or spiritual level. God said of Yeshua "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.'

Shalom
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
The Trinity or Godhead is God (the father) Jesus (the son) and the Holy Ghost. Jesus said "That He and the Father are one" and if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.....Jesus said there is one mediator between the Father and us and that is Jesus Christ...........The Bible also states that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father,
When I pray I usually pray to the Father, in or through Jesus name. They are both God, but like separate personalities. I think that belief in all three is a definite requirement.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Jesus is the Son of God and second in command. Since God the Father created Jesus, then Jesus inherited God's qualities. So Jesus is God of God.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
I trust the Bible in this regard, which is clear:

Jesus is "the Son of God", by believing in him we may "have life in his name". This is the essential distinction between Jesus as Christ, and any other man as a prophet. Jesus is the fundamental sign of God, that is, in his person, in the actual events of his life, in the way he lives and dies, God is revealed and the truth of man is revealed in relation to Him. The fundamental conviction of the New Testament is not only that Christ has risen from the dead, but that by uniting ourself to his life we can share in the life of God. In other words, there is a mysterious association between the inner life of Jesus and the inner life of God. As Christians reflected on Scripture and Revelation, they gradually grew into a deeper understanding.

If the life of Christ is our channel into the life of God, then it is fully appropriate to think of their union in substantial terms (that is, the Son and the Father are one in substance). Christ is "the fullness of God in bodily form" (Colossians) and he stated himself in John that "I and the Father are one". In addition he appropriates the Name of the Lord "I am", as revealed to Moses and declares himself Lord of the Sabbath (ie. Lord over creation).

Yet we know this is not just God under a mask. The Biblical testimony is also clear that Jesus, the Son, is a distinct person from the Father.

Thus we can see that in Christ the entire world is incorporated into the dynamism of God's inner life. The Son, fully one with the Father, descends into the world and imparts the Spirit. A Father of the Church said it as though the Spirit and Son are the two arms of the Father reaching out and taking the world in His embrace.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I trust the Bible in this regard, which is clear:

Jesus is "the Son of God", by believing in him we may "have life in his name". This is the essential distinction between Jesus as Christ, and any other man as a prophet. Jesus is the fundamental sign of God, that is, in his person, in the actual events of his life, in the way he lives and dies, God is revealed and the truth of man is revealed in relation to Him. The fundamental conviction of the New Testament is not only that Christ has risen from the dead, but that by uniting ourself to his life we can share in the life of God. In other words, there is a mysterious association between the inner life of Jesus and the inner life of God. As Christians reflected on Scripture and Revelation, they gradually grew into a deeper understanding.

If the life of Christ is our channel into the life of God, then it is fully appropriate to think of their union in substantial terms (that is, the Son and the Father are one in substance). Christ is "the fullness of God in bodily form" (Colossians) and he stated himself in John that "I and the Father are one". In addition he appropriates the Name of the Lord "I am", as revealed to Moses and declares himself Lord of the Sabbath (ie. Lord over creation).

Yet we know this is not just God under a mask. The Biblical testimony is also clear that Jesus, the Son, is a distinct person from the Father.

Thus we can see that in Christ the entire world is incorporated into the dynamism of God's inner life. The Son, fully one with the Father, descends into the world and imparts the Spirit. A Father of the Church said it as though the Spirit and Son are the two arms of the Father reaching out and taking the world in His embrace.
I enjoyed your post, Jordan. Could you explain to me what you mean by the word "substance"?
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Sorry,

The word I should have used is "essence" or "being". I'm taking this from the Nicene Creed which uses ousia, and declares the Father and the Son to be homoousian, or "of one being or essence".

From what I'm reading, it would be difficult to apply the word "substance" to God as God does not have accidents, even though the Catholic Encyclopedia defines substance as "signifying being as existing in and by itself".

Either way, by substance I mean to indicate that the Son and the Father are of the same "being".

Though not found in the New Testament, I think this word (homoousian) is consistent and expresses with deeper clarity the message of Scripture.

Being or essence is a very difficult concept to describe. The Encyclopedia defines essence, vaguely, "as properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is".

In other words, this is to say that the Son and Father, in essentially "what they are" or what constitutes their existence, are one. Shed any further light? Probably not.

The Trinity is, for us, a matter of faith and divinely revealed truth. This we see as perfectly harmonious and, infact, even demanded by the Epistle of John which teaches that "God is love".

Accordingly, the Trinity is really the only theological model in which we can affirm this to be a truth of God's being. God is love. Love is not impersonal, it is not a "force", but a reality between persons. In light of the Trinity we can say that God is not simply, from time eternal, loving himself in the kind of self-intoxicated or narcissistic sense. God is love because his being is, in fact, a society of persons. The Father eternally makes a gift of his self to the Son, and the Son to the Father and together with the Spirit. Thus (and some of this may be my own theological speculation) the Godhead is like three poles leaning on one another for support. Each holds nothing back because each person makes a total gift of himself, yet each stands firm by the total gift of the other.

This communion of love, this society of persons is what constitutes God's "being", his central reality. It is the deepest mystery. And from this all love is drawn. In the image of God, all human beings are drawn into communion with one another, more so the more we set our gaze to God, who images love in his very being. Because God is a society of persons, all human beings are drawn into relationships as well.

Now as each of us is called to love, that is, as we are called to make a total gift of ourselves, we realize that we inevitably fail to take the full step. On account of sin we selfishly keep ourselves and refuse to enter fully into the vulnerability of love.
Thus the Son descends to us, becoming human he takes us into him, and makes a complete gift of his self to the Father so that we, sharing in him, can become part of his self-giving. We see that Christ has modeled perfectly the "vulnerability of love" in his passion and Cross. We see his gift of self on Calvary, furthermore, that self is still being given in the Holy Eucharist and in the entire life of the Church. Thus the call of every Christian is to actually enter, through the vulnerability of love in Christ, into the Trinitarian dynamic.

Thus we say that love is the founding principle of the universe. It kind of "pours out of what God is", so to speak. Human beings participate in God then through love, he is what draws us all together as the only being that is complete in himself.

Whew, heavy stuff. Hope that might help!
 
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