Jesus: God or not? (Christians only)

[lunamoth]

Sorry,

The word I should have used is "essence" or "being". I'm taking this from the Nicene Creed which uses ousia, and declares the Father and the Son to be homoousian, or "of one being or essence".

From what I'm reading, it would be difficult to apply the word "substance" to God as God does not have accidents, even though the Catholic Encyclopedia defines substance as "signifying being as existing in and by itself".

Either way, by substance I mean to indicate that the Son and the Father are of the same "being".

Though not found in the New Testament, I think this word (homoousian) is consistent and expresses with deeper clarity the message of Scripture.

Being or essence is a very difficult concept to describe. The Encyclopedia defines essence, vaguely, "as properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is".

In other words, this is to say that the Son and Father, in essentially "what they are" or what constitutes their existence, are one. Shed any further light? Probably not.

The Trinity is, for us, a matter of faith and divinely revealed truth. This we see as perfectly harmonious and, infact, even demanded by the Epistle of John which teaches that "God is love".

Accordingly, the Trinity is really the only theological model in which we can affirm this to be a truth of God's being. God is love. Love is not impersonal, it is not a "force", but a reality between persons. In light of the Trinity we can say that God is not simply, from time eternal, loving himself in the kind of self-intoxicated or narcissistic sense. God is love because his being is, in fact, a society of persons. The Father eternally makes a gift of his self to the Son, and the Son to the Father and together with the Spirit. Thus (and some of this may be my own theological speculation) the Godhead is like three poles leaning on one another for support. Each holds nothing back because each person makes a total gift of himself, yet each stands firm by the total gift of the other.

This communion of love, this society of persons is what constitutes God's "being", his central reality. It is the deepest mystery. And from this all love is drawn. In the image of God, all human beings are drawn into communion with one another, more so the more we set our gaze to God, who images love in his very being. Because God is a society of persons, all human beings are drawn into relationships as well.

Now as each of us is called to love, that is, as we are called to make a total gift of ourselves, we realize that we inevitably fail to take the full step. On account of sin we selfishly keep ourselves and refuse to enter fully into the vulnerability of love.
Thus the Son descends to us, becoming human he takes us into him, and makes a complete gift of his self to the Father so that we, sharing in him, can become part of his self-giving. We see that Christ has modeled perfectly the "vulnerability of love" in his passion and Cross. We see his gift of self on Calvary, furthermore, that self is still being given in the Holy Eucharist and in the entire life of the Church. Thus the call of every Christian is to actually enter, through the vulnerability of love in Christ, into the Trinitarian dynamic.

Thus we say that love is the founding principle of the universe. It kind of "pours out of what God is", so to speak. Human beings participate in God then through love, he is what draws us all together as the only being that is complete in himself.

Whew, heavy stuff. Hope that might help!

Wow, very nice post. :yes:

Frubals!

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry,

The word I should have used is "essence" or "being". I'm taking this from the Nicene Creed which uses ousia, and declares the Father and the Son to be homoousian, or "of one being or essence".

Don't apologize. I would have asked the same question had you used the word "essence." I just have a hard time grasping the concept of how the Father and the Son could be distinct persons and yet one essence, and I'm pretty sure it's because the word "essence" is one my religion doesn't use. I'm just not comfortable with it.

Either way, by substance I mean to indicate that the Son and the Father are of the same "being".

So each person is not a separate being?

Being or essence is a very difficult concept to describe. The Encyclopedia defines essence, vaguely, "as properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is".

So, could we say that the essence of both the Father and the Son (and the Holy Ghost, for that matter) is those qualities that make them divine -- their perfect love, knowledge, power, etc?

Shed any further light? Probably not.

Not a great deal, to be perfectly honest. But I do appreciate the effort. Again, it's the word "essence" and the word "substance" that I have a difficult time with, and since they are so integral to an understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity, no matter how many times I try to get it, I always end up giving up.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Don't apologize. I would have asked the same question had you used the word "essence." I just have a hard time grasping the concept of how the Father and the Son could be distinct persons and yet one essence, and I'm pretty sure it's because the word "essence" is one my religion doesn't use. I'm just not comfortable with it.

Hmnnn... the scriptures use the word "nature" which would be synonymous with essence.

Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. NIV

It's really not surprising that we have a hard time understanding the relationship between God, the Son and the Spirit. God is trying to help us grasp a spiritual reality with physical concepts. It's not God's fault as much as it clearly shows our limitations when it comes to understanding and communicating about the spiritual aspects of our existence.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

For Christians only….

:sad4:............

 

[lunamoth]

Just an observation after viewing so many "Is Jesus God" and "What is the Trinity" and "Grace vs. Works" threads. It may be that we reject the answers we get because we've not asked the right question. Reminds me of many times in the Gospels when the disciples ask Jesus a question and his reply seems like a complete non sequitur or even, most interestingly, silence.

Jordan gave a perfectly lovely answer regarding what he thinks it means for Jesus to be God, and God to be love. Yet it does not, and never will, fit Katzpurs paradigm of what the Trinity is. I think that's going to be the pattern of most threads along these lines, up to and including the question of whether God 'exists.' Not that it is not interesting conversation (most of the time). But the whole thing reminds me of dopp's original tag line.

Apologies for this post...it's just been striking me more and more as I spend time on this forum.

 

[zippythepinhead]

I voted for the demi-God option. However, Jesus Christ is a God, just as His Father is God the Father. God the Father is the Father of us all including Christ. He is Jesus' God. Therefore both the Father and the Son are two separate beings or persons, but united in purpose and undivided in mission.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Jesus specifically said, if you can believe the Gospel as being accurate, that He was the "Son of Man". This means that He was a prophet. He was fully human. With such an intense connection the the Holy Spirit He has be confused as being joined with it in the Trinity.

This is the main objection in Revelation. The mythological thesis of fitting Jesus into a pre-existing mold. If Jesus were among us today He would probably be branded as the Antichrist.

Craig

 

[Scuba Pete]

If Jesus were among us today He would probably be branded as the Antichrist.

You mean, he would have had precisely the same reception as he had gotten in the first century? Whodathunk???

 

[Muffled]

I did find the wording of the poll confusing.

I might have been able to go for the first chice if it were not for the fact that it made it sound like the body was God and the Bible is clear that God is a spirit:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Then there is the fact that God is omnipresent and the body is not.

I chose the next option that Jesus is an incarnation of God which preserves the oneness of spirit:

John 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

I had a problem with the "on earth" part because the nature of Jesus does nto change from an incarnation when He enters Heaven.

 

[Bennettresearch]

You mean, he would have had precisely the same reception as he had gotten in the first century? Whodathunk???

Yeah, a real forehead slapper huh?

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hey Scuba Pete,

I am not a diver myself but I think it is enlightening to know when you are under water. Everyone should probably dive.

Craig

 

[Lucian]

Although I don't use the term, I'll pick incarnation because of its meaning. As Justin put it "since the Word is the first-born of God, He is also God."

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yeah, a real forehead slapper huh?

Yeah, sometimes we think that the Disciples are representative of what Jesus went through. They were the exceptions to the rule! Jesus was ridiculed constantly, merely because his light uncovered a lot of darkness in people. They were pissed!

 

[gnostic]

For Christians only….

:sad4:............

Sorry, Dirty Penguin.

I wanted to compare how many Christians believe that Jesus is THE GOD, and how many think Jesus is the "Son of God", or other configurations of what he is.

You can still comment about what you think. Just try to restrain yourself from voting in the poll.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Yeah, sometimes we think that the Disciples are representative of what Jesus went through. They were the exceptions to the rule! Jesus was ridiculed constantly, merely because his light uncovered a lot of darkness in people. They were pissed!

Yer right on. Jesus aroused the militant nature of those who consider themselves to be religious. Funny how that kind of situation seems to perpetuate itself. Just wait to see how people react to my synopsis of chapter 13 of Revelation. The thread will be "Debunking the Antichrist Myth"

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Yeah, sometimes we think that the Disciples are representative of what Jesus went through. They were the exceptions to the rule! Jesus was ridiculed constantly, merely because his light uncovered a lot of darkness in people. They were pissed!

Sorry, I messed up on the quote thing

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sorry, Dirty Penguin.

I wanted to compare how many Christians believe that Jesus is THE GOD, and how many think Jesus is the "Son of God", or other configurations of what he is.

You can still comment about what you think. Just try to restrain yourself from voting in the poll.

It's all good. I'm involved in a few other post on this very subject.

I do have questions.......

If Yeshua is to be considered God then how can the statement in Rev. 3:12 be explained?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Again, it's the word "essence" and the word "substance" that I have a difficult time with, and since they are so integral to an understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity, no matter how many times I try to get it, I always end up giving up.

So often people want to put God into a box so that they can understand Someone they have never seen. While that is understandable, we should rely on the revelation of Himself that He has given.

Romans 1
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
God has always existed and had no beginning. God was never created. Man had a beginning when God made him. Previously God had made the angels, but He made man lower than the angels.

Psalm 90
2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Colossians 1
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Revelation 4
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Hebrews 2
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.

 

[Bennettresearch]

So often people want to put God into a box so that they can understand Someone they have never seen. While that is understandable, we should rely on the revelation of Himself that He has given.

Romans 1
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
God has always existed and had no beginning. God was never created. Man had a beginning when God made him. Previously God had made the angels, but He made man lower than the angels.

Psalm 90
2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Colossians 1
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Revelation 4
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Hebrews 2
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.

Hi, Whateveryour name is,

Try this one,

"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son to have life in Himself;
And He gave Him authority to execute judgement, because He is the Son of Man."
John 5 (26-27)

Jesus was a human being who was a prophet and this is His testimony.

Craig

 

[UnityNow101]

If Jesus is God, then worship him. I don't believe there is really enough evidence to come to that conclusion, but then what do I know? I am just a silly nonbeliever, unable to decipher the truth with the help of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is not God, than you have all been looking at the external form of Jesus and have missed the "Living Bread" of truth which he espoused. I believe that the teachings of Jesus on how we are to treat each are far more important than whether or not Jesus is God..