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Jesus in India

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Greetings.

There is a hypothesis, with some evidence, of an alternate historicity of Jesus relating to India and Indic philosophies.

It has two parts:
1. Jesus traveled to India from 12~ to 30~
2. Jesus survived crucifixion with the aid of disciples, and traveled back to India (Kashmir) where he lived, married and died in his old age

Underlying this is his alleged practice of Hinduism/Buddhism, which he brought back the distilled philosophy and practice of reclothed in a Judaic context.

How acceptable of a belief is this?

If physical evidence were to substantiate, or perhaps even come close to a conclusive proof, of this, how would this affect Christianity?

Does it change "the Resurrection" to mean something less literal, more spiritual?
 

Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
Greetings.

There is a hypothesis, with some evidence, of an alternate historicity of Jesus relating to India and Indic philosophies.

It has two parts:
1. Jesus traveled to India from 12~ to 30~
2. Jesus survived crucifixion with the aid of disciples, and traveled back to India (Kashmir) where he lived, married and died in his old age

Underlying this is his alleged practice of Hinduism/Buddhism, which he brought back the distilled philosophy and practice of reclothed in a Judaic context.

How acceptable of a belief is this?

If physical evidence were to substantiate, or perhaps even come close to a conclusive proof, of this, how would this affect Christianity?

Does it change "the Resurrection" to mean something less literal, more spiritual?

As a student of comparative religion, I have run across this theory several times, the most notable I think is a book by Nicolas Notovich (?) called, The Unknown Life of Christ, which was published in the late 1800s.

In reference to your question above - even if there were credible evidence that Jesus was influenced by other Eastern religions, I doubt it would have much of an effect on conservative Christianity, nor on Catholicism. They both have to much to lose in terms of the time/energy/ego invested in believing that their current Bible(s) are without error, and are literally true.

More liberal Christians like myself would welcome such (credible) information as an addition to not only the Christian narrative, but also to the cross-pollination of other Eastern religions and traditions.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I think this thread should be moved to comparative, or debate.

I do not see the need to debate anything in this thread.

I don't think it's a comparative religion thing either, although I wouldn't object to it being moved there, because I'm not seeing a comparison of Hinduism and Christianity, but wishing to discuss the views of this possibility within Christianity, because I agree with you that it's not particularly important for Hinduism - it won't change anything.

However, my belief is that the sanatana dharma, the eternal truth and law, is manifest in all societies, to one degree or another. I consider it most strongly present in the Indic religions, but anything that is true, particularly that which is eternally true, belongs in the Sanatana Dharma regardless of which culture it is bounded in.

If Jesus was an enlightened yogi, or an avatar, it represents a re-opening of an avenue to gnostic experience for Christians.
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
As a student of comparative religion, I have run across this theory several times, the most notable I think is a book by Nicolas Notovich (?) called, The Unknown Life of Christ, which was published in the late 1800s.

In reference to your question above - even if there were credible evidence that Jesus was influenced by other Eastern religions, I doubt it would have much of an effect on conservative Christianity, nor on Catholicism. They both have to much to lose in terms of the time/energy/ego invested in believing that their current Bible(s) are without error, and are literally true.

More liberal Christians like myself would welcome such (credible) information as an addition to not only the Christian narrative, but also to the cross-pollination of other Eastern religions and traditions.

Thank you for your well-reasoned post.

1. If strong evidence were to be provided, do you feel that liberal questions would be willing to study, and practice, the gnostic teachings, finding new credibility in them?

2. Would extreme evidence, such as DNA testing of the body buried in Rozabal (perhaps also trauma analysis on hands & feet), confirm that a 2000~ year old Israeli who'd been crucified was buried there, undermine faith in the Church's version?
 

Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
Thank you for your well-reasoned post.?

Thanks for your question. I always find discussions like this useful, even though it may leave some Christians either uncomfortable, or feeling like they need to defend their faith. I will try to refrain from phrasing my responses as a "debate", although I think others will read them that way, anyway.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family and several of my uncles and cousins are Baptist ministers. However, I will state up-front that I do not believe my views are "facts" as such. My views are just the result of personal study where I have tried to draw my own conclusions.

1. If strong evidence were to be provided, do you feel that liberal questions would be willing to study, and practice, the gnostic teachings, finding new credibility in them?

Personally, I already read/study gnostic teachings such as those known as the Gnostic Gospels. I view them as alternative but legitimate early views of Christ's teachings. It is well-known that the early Church Fathers did their best to frame some of the Gnostic Gospels as heresey in order to promote their own orthodox version of Christianity. It was in formal councils of the early church where the books of the Bible were examined and ultimately admitted to the canon of Bible scripture. Books that did not fit with orthodoxy were thrown out or ignored. When you view the Bible from that perspective the Bible was actually "designed by committee".

2. Would extreme evidence, such as DNA testing of the body buried in Rozabal (perhaps also trauma analysis on hands & feet), confirm that a 2000~ year old Israeli who'd been crucified was buried there, undermine faith in the Church's version?

The question of DNA testing is interesting, but whose DNA would you compare it to to come up with a definitive answer in terms of identity? Do we know of someone who is a direct decendant of Jesus, or even Mary?
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
The question of DNA testing is interesting, but whose DNA would you compare it to to come up with a definitive answer in terms of identity? Do we know of someone who is a direct decendant of Jesus, or even Mary?

Mary is said to be buried in Muree, Pakistan. Moreover, the haplogroup should determine whether the body is of Jewish origin or not.
 

Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
Mary is said to be buried in Muree, Pakistan. Moreover, the haplogroup should determine whether the body is of Jewish origin or not.

The haplogroup of the DNA might prove this or that person was Jewish, that might be very easy, but how do you prove that a female body found in Pakistan is actually Mary?

I am not trying to be difficult in my reponses, but if you expect to remove most (or even some) doubt in order for Christians to be convinced, then you must provide traceability of origin.

Going back to your original post regarding whether Jesus might have traveled to India and studied Indic philosophies, my feeling is that Jesus would have encountered Hindu and Buddhist philosophies and beliefs without traveling anywhere. By the time Jesus was born, Hinduism had been around for over 1,000 years and Buddhism had already been around for several hundred years. It's likely Jesus would have known of these "religions" without traveling anywhere.
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
The haplogroup of the DNA might prove this or that person was Jewish, that might be very easy, but how do you prove that a female body found in Pakistan is actually Mary?
If there are existing accounts of a Jewish woman who died there 1980~ odd years ago, and the tests show that the body is about that old, and Jewish, it is compelling evidence I would say, especially if there's a body of a Jewish man in Kashmir whose body bears the marks of crucifixion in youth, yet death in old age, and is genetically her son.

At some point, the consistency between things claimed in the alternate account, and things substantiated, would just be too ... consistent to ignore.

Going back to your original post regarding whether Jesus might have traveled to India and studied Indic philosophies, my feeling is that Jesus would have encountered Hindu and Buddhist philosophies and beliefs without traveling anywhere. By the time Jesus was born, Hinduism had been around for over 1,000 years and Buddhism had already been around for several hundred years. It's likely Jesus would have known of these "religions" without traveling anywhere.
I agree, which I think is one of the good supporting reasons for this hypothesis: The family flees Herod's infant massacre, where do they go? Egypt, but where in Egypt?

Alexandria is the obvious choice: the largest Jewish population outside of Jerusalem, and a major shipping and shipbuilding capital. Joseph, as a tekton, would of course go there.

Due to Alexander's conquests centuries before, the Mediterranean was opened to India and there was rich trade of goods and ideas, and people. Buddhism and Hinduism are attested in Alexandria and it's likely that as a child Jesus encountered them.

Such would be his impetus for, at the age of 12~ after deciding that the elders of the synagogues could not teach him, he journeyed to the East for direct transmission.
 

Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
If there are existing accounts of a Jewish woman who died there 1980~ odd years ago, and the tests show that the body is about that old, and Jewish, it is compelling evidence I would say, especially if there's a body of a Jewish man in Kashmir whose body bears the marks of crucifixion in youth, yet death in old age, and is genetically her son.

The problem here is that, if you are a true Christian, you would never believe that Jesus' body has been found! Why? Because according to Christian traditions Jesus was raised from the dead and then bodily ascended into heaven to be with God the Father. No body was left here on earth to be found, so actually finding a crucified body here on earth would actually prove that he could NOT be Jesus.

Additionally, crucifixion was a common Roman practice for execution. There might have been hundreds if not thousands of Jewish males who were crucified during the time of Jesus.

Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I am simply approaching your theories as a conservative Christian might see them.
 
Greetings.

There is a hypothesis, with some evidence, of an alternate historicity of Jesus relating to India and Indic philosophies.

It has two parts:
1. Jesus traveled to India from 12~ to 30~
2. Jesus survived crucifixion with the aid of disciples, and traveled back to India (Kashmir) where he lived, married and died in his old age

Underlying this is his alleged practice of Hinduism/Buddhism, which he brought back the distilled philosophy and practice of reclothed in a Judaic context.

How acceptable of a belief is this?

If physical evidence were to substantiate, or perhaps even come close to a conclusive proof, of this, how would this affect Christianity?

Does it change "the Resurrection" to mean something less literal, more spiritual?
Archeologists say, that they feel, through evidence, that someone as significant as Jesus was buried in India. I could be wrong, but who else could say, that this is a possibility? The term, 'someone as significant' implies only one thing. But, then, he would certainly have met the doubting Saint in India, who was recorded in history in India.
 

davidthegreek

Active Member
Thanks for your question. I always find discussions like this useful, even though it may leave some Christians either uncomfortable, or feeling like they need to defend their faith. I will try to refrain from phrasing my responses as a "debate", although I think others will read them that way, anyway.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family and several of my uncles and cousins are Baptist ministers. However, I will state up-front that I do not believe my views are "facts" as such. My views are just the result of personal study where I have tried to draw my own conclusions.



Personally, I already read/study gnostic teachings such as those known as the Gnostic Gospels. I view them as alternative but legitimate early views of Christ's teachings. It is well-known that the early Church Fathers did their best to frame some of the Gnostic Gospels as heresey in order to promote their own orthodox version of Christianity. It was in formal councils of the early church where the books of the Bible were examined and ultimately admitted to the canon of Bible scripture. Books that did not fit with orthodoxy were thrown out or ignored. When you view the Bible from that perspective the Bible was actually "designed by committee".



The question of DNA testing is interesting, but whose DNA would you compare it to to come up with a definitive answer in terms of identity? Do we know of someone who is a direct decendant of Jesus, or even Mary?



That is going to sound crazy. But as much as I don't believe it. There are some people who claim to be descendants of jesus and they have even developed a church. True Jesus I think it is.
 

AgogTheorist

Hi! Got storage?
This is an interesting question; I figure I'll share my opinions first from my own perspective, and then I'll take some stabs at guessing how the wider Church would respond.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of Jesus's excursion to India, but I find it extremely unlikely. I'm not quite sure what evidence you'd have to give me in order to believe these claims, but it would have to be quite substantial. I've studied numerous differing accounts of the "Historical Jesus" and am quite aware of how limited our knowledge of "who Jesus really was" is, even according to the well-established stories of the Bible.

In case you're unfamiliar with the "Historical Jesus", it's essentially a movement to identify how much of the New Testament accounts of Jesus are historically accurate, and how much have been generated many years afterwards with specific purposes in mind. In a way you could view it as an attempt to separate the Jesus of history from the Christ of the Bible. Scholars from all over the spectrum of Christianity (from Liberal to Conservative) participate in this movement, and use the whole gamut of scholarly criticism from analyzing the structure of sentences in the Bible to running soil samples. The more liberal scholars will downplay or outright eliminate the Christ of the Bible, while the more conservative scholars will find ways to marry the two, or at least reaffirm that the Christ of the Bible is still essential to our modern faith, but I think it's safe to say that all agree that the two are not identical. Note that we're talking scholars here, not laypeople or theologians.

One of my favourite books on this topic is The Historical Jesus by John Dominic Crossan, in which he collects every event or saying involving Jesus from the four canonical gospels as well as the Gospel of Thomas and the hypothetical Q document (it's accepted by over 99% of biblical scholars that Matthew and Luke both share as a source Mark and some long-destroyed "collection of sayings of Jesus" document which they dub "Q"). Anyway, Crossan collects these verses, groups them according to the number of independent documents they occur in (ie. if the essence of a verse can be found in Mark and Thomas, both of which were written completely independent of each other, then it's counted twice), and finally sorts them according to the number of occurrences. Verses with a higher cardinality are considered more likely to be historically accurate, and verses with a cardinality of 1 are essentially discarded as being later additions. Crossan then analyzes the result and draws inferences using cultural and historical anthropology to connect the dots about who Jesus likely was.

Anyway, the reason I bring all this up is because your question falls squarely in the Historical Jesus umbrella. And the reason I've described things in such depth is to demonstrate how controversial the simple question "Who was Jesus?" really is, and the extremely scientific and systematic way the question is approached. There is very little about Jesus that is fully established and accepted among the best and brightest scholars who have dedicated their lifetimes to the research. The discovery of some Jewish woman's body and a genetically similar crucified man, even if they were established beyond reasonable doubt, would still be very thin evidence of actually being Mary and Jesus. As Reverend Richard said above, crucifixion was a very common practice at that time.

The idea of Jesus living in India seems to me to be mostly sensationalism, and is found here primarily on the same television stations that "prove" aliens built the pyramids and sunk Atlantis. (I know because my dad unfortunately frequents those stations.) As far as I know, scholarly consensus on the idea is almost unanimously against it.

But say, hypothetically, that it could be proven, and that scholars were suddenly all, "Hooray we all believe now that Jesus lived in India now!!!!!" Then I would totally jump on that bandwagon.

Moving beyond myself to the wider Church, you'll encounter all kinds of opposition. The more liberal denominations are strongly influenced by Historical Jesus scholarship, so if you convince the scholars you're likely to convince them too. Theologically, the resurrection of Jesus would need to be reinterpreted, and would probably end up more metaphorical (which is how I currently interpret it anyway).

For those of a more conservative bent, theology usually takes precedence over scholarship, and it would take centuries for the idea to be fully assimilated. Many for whom Jesus' resurrection is ultimately important and who struggle with metaphorical reinterpretation would lose their faith. Biblical literalists would continue to deny the evidence with claims like "God must have planted the evidence to challenge our faith," which is how they currently explain dinosaur bones.

...And of course war would break out and Planet Earth would be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust which would reverberate to the edge of our solar system and God would look down angrily and shake his fist saying, "I hope you all burn in hell, you heretics!" :mad:
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The discovery of some Jewish woman's body and a genetically similar crucified man, even if they were established beyond reasonable doubt, would still be very thin evidence of actually being Mary and Jesus. As Reverend Richard said above, crucifixion was a very common practice at that time.
If someone DID find Mary's body, then that would destroy the Orthodox/Catholic teaching that Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven after she died.

Moving beyond myself to the wider Church, you'll encounter all kinds of opposition. The more liberal denominations are strongly influenced by Historical Jesus scholarship, so if you convince the scholars you're likely to convince them too. Theologically, the resurrection of Jesus would need to be reinterpreted, and would probably end up more metaphorical (which is how I currently interpret it anyway).

For those of a more conservative bent, theology usually takes precedence over scholarship, and it would take centuries for the idea to be fully assimilated. Many for whom Jesus' resurrection is ultimately important and who struggle with metaphorical reinterpretation would lose their faith. Biblical literalists would continue to deny the evidence with claims like "God must have planted the evidence to challenge our faith," which is how they currently explain dinosaur bones.
Take away the literal and bodily Resurrection of Christ, and you absolutely destroy the entire foundation of both orthodox and Orthodox Christianity. It would allow for the revival of certain Gnostic sects, though. I also predict mass conversions to Islam.

...And of course war would break out and Planet Earth would be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust which would reverberate to the edge of our solar system and God would look down angrily and shake his fist saying, "I hope you all burn in hell, you heretics!" :mad:
Isn't that supposed to be happening today? :D
 

davidthegreek

Active Member
I also predict mass conversions to Islam.

:D


You might be right. But I wouldn't convert to islam. and I don't understand why anyone would, when there are so many peaceful religions to choose from. Such as hinduism, or buddhism. I like some of their stories. I would personal choose them, since I like some of their philosophies. Also, suppose Jesus isn't real. If I choose a polytheistic religion. I am allowed to choose any God to believe in, without having to accept specific doctrines. I will be free to practice natural faith.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
You might be right. But I wouldn't convert to islam. and I don't understand why anyone would,
I thought that converting to Islam would be a popular choice, since it's still an Abrahamic faith, it's more or less the same God, and you still have Jesus, even if He's just a prophet and a man, and not one of the Trinity.

when there are so many peaceful religions to choose from. Such as hinduism, or buddhism. I like some of their stories. I would personal choose them, since I like some of their philosophies.
I think Buddhism would gain a lot of ground, too. I suppose the Indian Christians would gravitate towards Hinduism, if Christianity were to crumble.

Also, suppose Jesus isn't real. If I choose a polytheistic religion. I am allowed to choose any God to believe in, without having to accept specific doctrines. I will be free to practice natural faith.
Oh man, without Christianity, Paganism in Europe would come back with a VENGEANCE, depending on how many people are interested in the "ancestral faith."
 

davidthegreek

Active Member
I thought that converting to Islam would be a popular choice, since it's still an Abrahamic faith, it's more or less the same God, and you still have Jesus, even if He's just a prophet and a man, and not one of the Trinity.

if jesus is not of the trinity. There is no trinity.
Also, Islam in my eyes is cruel. I can't live in peace with them. By them I mean the religion not the laity.

I think Buddhism would gain a lot of ground, too. I suppose the Indian Christians would gravitate towards Hinduism, if Christianity were to crumble.

Some indian people are muslims too.

Oh man, without Christianity, Paganism in Europe would come back with a VENGEANCE, depending on how many people are interested in the "ancestral faith."
Sadly it's true. But could you blame them? They have been forced for centruries to shut up, and renounce the faith of their fathers. And all this in the name of someone who (supposedly) does not exist.

You can bet however, that I would not be one of the vengeful. I would stick to the Christian principles, simply because I like them.

When Jesus said "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy". There are two option to keep in mind.
1. Either he is the Son Of God, and promises, that the merciful (no matter where they are coming from) will be shown mercy by him and his father. Or
2. In the worst case. He is just a man who suggested a better and more decent way of life, and taught the "Law of Attraction" (Like attracts Like). Eg. Mercy attracts mercy. Love attracts Love, Forgiveness attracts forgiveness. You get my point. Share your thoughts on that.


 
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