Jesus is called the creator in Hebrews.

[Desert Snake]

What is your opinion of these verses?
We can start at Hebrews 1:6
(KJV) And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the all the angels of God worship him. /referring to Jesus

then, we can go to Hebrews 1:8
But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Now, we can pause for a moment here, as some would say the translation is not indicating 'God' for Jesus, however, proceeding further, we are presented with a very clear statement in Hebrews 1:10
And, thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

This is clearly stating that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth.

sidenote: Notice the "thou" being used, indicating that the Father is still referring to Jesus, from verse 1:5 to 1:10

 

[Pegg]

Proverbs 8 shows that God had a master worker along side him

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men. 32 And now, my sons, listen to me; Yes, happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to discipline and become wise, And never neglect it. 34 Happy is the man who listens to me By coming early to my doors day by day, By waiting next to my doorposts; 35 For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation... he was Gods master worker and all things came into existence 'through him and for him' according to Colossians 1

So there is no doubt as to Jesus position or why he is over all things. But that doesnt mean he is Jehovah God.

 

[Desert Snake]

I would like to add, verses such as these might be confusing to those who don't believe in Deity, Divine, or Spirit form Jesus, whether a manifestation of the Godhead or otherwise, however I would encourage taking your time with this, we are being presented with these verses. They are in the Holy Bible. I hope we can respect Scripture to the extent that no matter what your beliefs, we heed all Scripture as worthy of dilligent study.

 

[Desert Snake]

Proverbs 8 shows that God had a master worker along side him

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men. 32 And now, my sons, listen to me; Yes, happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to discipline and become wise, And never neglect it. 34 Happy is the man who listens to me By coming early to my doors day by day, By waiting next to my doorposts; 35 For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation... he was Gods master worker and all things came into existence 'through him and for him' according to Colossians 1

So there is no doubt as to Jesus position or why he is over all things. But that doesnt mean he is Jehovah God.

The point of this thread is not to argue that Jesus is Jehovah, the point is to present verses indicating that Jesus is a creator Being, regardless of your opinion on His divine nature.
Anyways, thanks for the input, very interesting.

 

[Sariel]

Proverbs 8 is talking about Chokmah(Wisdom) as a personified "daughter" that assisted God in the creation of the world. It seems to me that the writer is comparing Jesus as the embodiment of the divine wisdom.

 

[ChristineES]

What is your opinion of these verses?
We can start at Hebrews 1:6
(KJV) And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the all the angels of God worship him. /referring to Jesus

then, we can go to Hebrews 1:8
But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Now, we can pause for a moment here, as some would say the translation is not indicating 'God' for Jesus, however, proceeding further, we are presented with a very clear statement in Hebrews 1:10
And, thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

This is clearly stating that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth.

sidenote: Notice the "thou" being used, indicating that the Father is still referring to Jesus, from verse 1:5 to 1:10

The majority of Christians I have known believe that Jesus is God and they believe in the Trinity. The exceptions being the Jehovah's Witnesses I studied with and a few other scattered Christians who don't believe Jesus is God or in the Trinity (or both). I have a lot of conflicted thoughts about the Trinity. The first branch of Christianity I studied was JW until I switched over to Baptist (Although I still attend a Baptist Church, I think of myself as more non-denominational now). I have to go get ready for something, so I will elaborate later.

 

[Desert Snake]

Proverbs 8 is talking about Chokmah(Wisdom) as a personified "daughter" that assisted God in the creation of the world. It seems to me that the writer is comparing Jesus as the embodiment of the divine wisdom.

I think the verses I presented are very clear and stand on their own. Interpretation is everyones prerogative of course.

 

[Nada]

When it says "let the angels worship him",referring to Jesus,it does not mean worship as in the way we do towards God the Almighty.It means as obeisance.A sign of respect.

obeisance |ōˈbāsəns, ōˈbē-| noun
deferential respect: they paid obeisance to the prince.
• a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy: she made a deep obeisance.
Notice too it says, "And let the all the angels of God worship him.

It is making a distinction here.It is the angels of God who are showing this act of respect to Jesus.

We know that Jesus was along side God when everything was being created.The holy scriptures tells us that Jesus was along side God as a master worker.
Proverbs 8:22-31. 22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,before his deeds of old;23 I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began.

Everything was created through Jesus and for Jesus.Jesus was created first before all other things.Thats why he is called the firstborn.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Everything else was created after him.Through him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

 

[Sariel]

I think the verses I presented are very clear and stand on their own. Interpretation is everyones prerogative of course.

I try to look at the over-arching theme instead of individual verses.
Example:
-Wisdom 7:25-26:
25 She is a breath of the power of God, and the radiance of the glory of the Almighty. Nothing that is defiled can ever steal its way into Wisdom. 26 She is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
-Hebrews 1:3:
who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
-Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.

Of course, they could also be referencing Philo's Logos concept whom he associated with the Angel of haShem(akaMetatron/Yahoel) and Melchizedek, both of whom are messianic figures in Jewish mysticism. Then there's also mention of a "godhead" but I think it's something closer to a proto-kabbalah of Jewish mysticism at the time. Just some food for thought. I personally think we're being presented with high mystical concepts that require more than just a plain reading of the text.

 

[metis]

I try to look at the over-arching theme instead of individual verses.
Example:
-Wisdom 7:25-26:
25 She is a breath of the power of God, and the radiance of the glory of the Almighty. Nothing that is defiled can ever steal its way into Wisdom. 26 She is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
-Hebrews 1:3:
who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
-Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.

Of course, they could also be referencing Philo's Logos concept whom he associated with the Angel of haShem(akaMetatron/Yahoel) and Melchizedek, both of whom are messianic figures in Jewish mysticism. Then there's also mention of a "godhead" but I think it's something closer to a proto-kabbalah of Jewish mysticism at the time. Just some food for thought. I personally think we're being presented with high mystical concepts that require more than just a plain reading of the text.

Good post, and I do tend to think that you're approach seems to make more sense than the OP since it captures the mystical Jewish form of writing commonly used in the Tanakh.

 

[Desert Snake]

I try to look at the over-arching theme instead of individual verses.
Example:
-Wisdom 7:25-26:
25 She is a breath of the power of God, and the radiance of the glory of the Almighty. Nothing that is defiled can ever steal its way into Wisdom. 26 She is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
-Hebrews 1:3:
who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
-Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.

Of course, they could also be referencing Philo's Logos concept whom he associated with the Angel of haShem(akaMetatron/Yahoel) and Melchizedek, both of whom are messianic figures in Jewish mysticism. Then there's also mention of a "godhead" but I think it's something closer to a proto-kabbalah of Jewish mysticism at the time. Just some food for thought. I personally think we're being presented with high mystical concepts that require more than just a plain reading of the text.

I approach these verses thusly, and pared down for expediency.
-The nature of Jeshua
Jeshua is born of the "Spirit", His anointing earlier in the Scripture occurs at His birth, even though later we are presented with a Jesus who is 'noted' as specially holy and different at his baptism by John the Baptist.
-Jeshua at numerous times is referred to as the way we can approach the Father, even explicitly, the only way. This is clearly separating His nature from those around Him, back to the Baptism by John narrative momentarily, Jesus is said to baptize not through water (symbolic?), but through the Spirit, again noting His "different" nature.

-The writers intent upon writing the verses.
The intent should be read at it's simplest and most apparent meaning, otherwise the 'author' loses credibility at being able to express his or her ideas in a concise manner befitting religious topics. If the writer is utilizing previous Scripture, is the intent the exact same as the previous Scripture? Is the previous Scripture being used poetically? Keep in mind this is only supposing a relation between the OT and NT verses.
-The nature of the intent elsewhere in Scripture
Are there other similar references to Jesus being Divine? How is it presented theologically, i.e. trinity concept (in meaning, not the figuration later by scholars), in Oneness doctrine absolute, Jesus is literally One with the Father, in essence it is a manifestation of the Godhead in this instance referring to another manifestation of the *Godhead, or is it completely metaphor? In which case does it match other Scriptural metaphorims and the beliefs of the adherents (supposedly an 'argument' here, I disagree).
* Or rather to avoid confusion with the trinity title, literally One with God, as in, Jesus is God, in spirit form, as opposed to a separate being or different of purpose, in the Godhead.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think it is good to take note of the general attitude towards the 'Deity' and deity concept in the NT. They certainly are not in agreement with the priestly understanding of these subjects, this is very clear. We have to ask ourselves, do the verses in the NT 'match' verses in the OT? Sometimes, but often, no they don't. When verses such as these are interpreted as basically having the exact same meaning as a verse(s) found in the OT, is this the most logical approach? I argue it often isn't, these are different religions, when we 'interpret' one religion through the theological lense of another religion, we are basically likely to be employing confirmation bias to an extent that our suppositions have to be examined very carefully.

sidenote: 'Deity concept' meaning the teachings of the Torah, traditional laws of the time etc., Judaic belief is different from some other deity ideas in that when certain ideas outside of the very basic 'Theistic idea' are changed, it affects the perceived position of the one enacting the 'change' regarding their Deity idea, in other words there is only so much allowance between traditional Judaic Theistic concepts and traditional Judaica rules, and beliefs not explicitly related to the 'Deity' idea, or not apparently so from non-Jews. Hence confusion sometimes as to 'why' something is kosher (ok) in Judaism and something else isn't.

 

[Sariel]

I approach these verses thusly, and pared down for expediency.
-The nature of Jeshua
Jeshua is born of the "Spirit", His anointing earlier in the Scripture occurs at His birth, even though later we are presented with a Jesus who is 'noted' as specially holy and different at his baptism by John the Baptist.
-Jeshua at numerous times is referred to as the way we can approach the Father, even explicitly, the only way. This is clearly separating His nature from those around Him, back to the Baptism by John narrative momentarily, Jesus is said to baptize not through water (symbolic?), but through the Spirit, again noting His "different" nature.

-The writers intent upon writing the verses.
The intent should be read at it's simplest and most apparent meaning, otherwise the 'author' loses credibility at being able to express his or her ideas in a concise manner befitting religious topics. If the writer is utilizing previous Scripture, is the intent the exact same as the previous Scripture? Is the previous Scripture being used poetically? Keep in mind this is only supposing a relation between the OT and NT verses.
-The nature of the intent elsewhere in Scripture
Are there other similar references to Jesus being Divine? How is it presented theologically, i.e. trinity concept (in meaning, not the figuration later by scholars), in Oneness doctrine absolute, Jesus is literally One with the Father, in essence it is a manifestation of the Godhead in this instance referring to another manifestation of the *Godhead, or is it completely metaphor? In which case does it match other Scriptural metaphorims and the beliefs of the adherents (supposedly an 'argument' here, I disagree).
* Or rather to avoid confusion with the trinity title, literally One with God, as in, Jesus is God, in spirit form, as opposed to a separate being or different of purpose, in the Godhead.

I'm not disputing the fact that the messiah has a divine nature higher than all the angels and prophets. He is called the right hand of God after all. One of the titles for messiah is Beth El, the title for the holy temple, implying God dwells in him. The Angel of haShem is called the angel that bears God's "name", and he's sometimes associated with the messiah too.
I'll try to explain my view to be clearer. God has many manifestation, far more than 3 in the scriptures. To name a few: The Holy spirit, the Shekhina, Chokmah, the Jersusalem above, Angel of haShem, and even the messiah. While all of these are "one-with-God", they are still ultimately just extensions/agents of his being. To me, the "father" is the keter(the crown) whom all of the other are subject to and come from. The father is the true El elyon, the highest.
Now is this all metaphor or something more mystical? Not sure myself, but I feel like much of Christianity has oversimplified ideas that were meant to be a bit more complex, just imo.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not disputing the fact that the messiah has a divine nature higher than all the angels and prophets. He is called the right hand of God after all. One of the titles for messiah is Beth El, the title for the holy temple, implying God dwells in him. The Angel of haShem is called the angel that bears God's "name", and he's sometimes associated with the messiah too.
I'll try to explain my view to be clearer. God has many manifestation, far more than 3 in the scriptures. To name a few: The Holy spirit, the Shekhina, Chokmah, the Jersusalem above, Angel of haShem, and even the messiah. While all of these are "one-with-God", they are still ultimately just extensions/agents of his being. To me, the "father" is the keter(the crown) whom all of the other are subject to and come from. The father is the true El elyon, the highest.
Now is this all metaphor or something more mystical? Not sure myself, but I feel like much of Christianity has oversimplified ideas that were meant to be a bit more complex, just imo.

As to the 'trinity', I regard that as 'logical explanation' of theistic ideas found within Scripture, whether the manifestations of G-d are more than that, it doesn't affect the concept to the extent that I would call the concept incorrect, you can just as easily say "at least three" manifestations in the Godhead. I tend to view this aspect of the Bible (OT & NT) as reflecting Oneness, since the different manifestations all originate from the same origin.

 

[Sariel]

Well yeah, but my issues with the trinitarian mindset is that it ignores the other manifestations and none of these manifestations are to be considered God in itself. You wouldn't worship the Holy Spirit anymore than I would worship the Malakh haShem as God, and the latter is literally God's direct representative. They are mere extensions of his will, not the infinite totality that we call should call "God". Their role is to help man become closer to God and carry out his will, to worship them would be misguided idolatry.

 

[Sonofason]

What is your opinion of these verses?
We can start at Hebrews 1:6
(KJV) And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the all the angels of God worship him. /referring to Jesus

then, we can go to Hebrews 1:8
But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Now, we can pause for a moment here, as some would say the translation is not indicating 'God' for Jesus, however, proceeding further, we are presented with a very clear statement in Hebrews 1:10
And, thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

This is clearly stating that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth.

sidenote: Notice the "thou" being used, indicating that the Father is still referring to Jesus, from verse 1:5 to 1:10

I agree.

Also, John 1:3 states:
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree.

Also, John 1:3 states:
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Yes, I don't think there has been a legit argument presented otherwise as to what these verses mean, this is just another example of what the intended meaning would be to these verses.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well yeah, but my issues with the trinitarian mindset is that it ignores the other manifestations and none of these manifestations are to be considered God in itself. You wouldn't worship the Holy Spirit anymore than I would worship the Malakh haShem as God, and the latter is literally God's direct representative. They are mere extensions of his will, not the infinite totality that we call should call "God". Their role is to help man become closer to God and carry out his will, to worship them would be misguided idolatry.

First off, I don't know what you mean by 'Trinitarian mindset', and therefore not sure if that is even relevant. Secondly, the manifestation in Jesus the man form is through the Spirit, if you consider Jesus divine then you are, unless you disagree with Scripture, saying that that divinity is G-d's.
Anyways, the concept that generally confuses people is that they think the Scripture is indicating some "other" spirit for Jeshua, when in reality the idea is that G-d, manifests through Jeshua the man, in essence 'God walking among us' with man attributes as well, hence the "confusion" when Jeshua says 'Father' etc.

sidenote: Usually when people say that "Jesus isn't G-d", it relates to their belief that Jesus wasn't divine, i.e. a normal Rabbi, troublemaker etc etc., I have noticed many Christians taking up this idea while seeming to maintain the contradictory idea that Jesus is still divine, not really realizing that they are basically "arguing" against their own claimed beliefs without realizing it. There are of course some Christians that really do think Jeshua was 'the same' as everyone else, but then we run into the many 'problems' with this theory, to name one:
-If Jeshua is contradicting the priestly doctrine then why would we assume a continuation of the Covenant: in other words, Jeshua has to have authority in order to contradict the previous laws (some of them, or modify them).

 

[Aman777]

What is your opinion of these verses?
We can start at Hebrews 1:6
(KJV) And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the all the angels of God worship him. /referring to Jesus

then, we can go to Hebrews 1:8
But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Now, we can pause for a moment here, as some would say the translation is not indicating 'God' for Jesus, however, proceeding further, we are presented with a very clear statement in Hebrews 1:10
And, thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

This is clearly stating that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth.

sidenote: Notice the "thou" being used, indicating that the Father is still referring to Jesus, from verse 1:5 to 1:10

Dear disciple, Jesus IS God in physical form. Without Him was not ANYthing made which was made. He is the ONLY God anyone will ever see because God the Trinity is an INVISIBLE Spirit. Jesus is YHWH of Genesis, the maker of Adam, called LORD God by the King James translators. Jesus IS LORD. Jesus IS God, incarnate. God Bless you.

in Love,
Aman

 

[Brickjectivity]

What is your opinion of these verses?
We can start at Hebrews 1:6
(KJV) And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the all the angels of God worship him. /referring to Jesus

then, we can go to Hebrews 1:8
But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Now, we can pause for a moment here, as some would say the translation is not indicating 'God' for Jesus, however, proceeding further, we are presented with a very clear statement in Hebrews 1:10
And, thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

This is clearly stating that Jesus is the creator of the heavens and earth.

sidenote: Notice the "thou" being used, indicating that the Father is still referring to Jesus, from verse 1:5 to 1:10

So many good comments in this thread that I don't know what I can add, but hey why not try.

Keeping in mind that in the Christian canon, the whole #!, the 'Church' is the body of Christ and is being purified and being made to conform eventually to the likeness of the Son. Secondly Jesus is the 'Author and finisher' of our faith(fulness). The above description in Hebrews is ideally about Jesus but is in the practical sense about the Church herself, not about some far away deity. Adding this to Sraosha's very interesting point about Wisdom, the Church is intended to eventually embody all wisdom.