Really , I've been to my fair share of funerals and have yet to see anyone come back.
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Jesus is God?
- Thread starter Khale
- Start date
Really , I've been to my fair share of funerals and have yet to see anyone come back.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Well "resurrection" is not in question. At least not yet. Yeshua's being God is. Why must we be told that he is God when he reveals to all that he wasn't?
So what....? He surrendered. Just like Yeshua, you have to pick your battles. Yeshua and his crew were willing to fight but when the soldiers came to arrest him he knew he was out numbered and surrendered. None of his actions shows or proves deity. On the contrary......he begged for his life up until his supposed death...
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Temple of Man is also the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. It descends to earth with the advent of those Great Prophets as part of Their Dispensations.
It descended with Adam, with Abraham, with Moses, with Krshna, with Zoroaster, wit Buddha, with Jesus, with Muhammed, with The Bab, with Baha`u'llah where it stands here for us in this day. At some time in the future, when it seems that God has abandoned us that it will reappear again.
The symbol in Islam, Babi and Baha`i belief for the Temple of Man is the five-pointed star. Michelangelo dep[icted it as a circle with a five pointed star in the center. Over this is superimposed the figure of a man with arms and legs outstretched.
Regards,
Scott
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Who has the a ability to resurrect himself or herself from the dead?
I think biblically speaking, only God can resurrect people. But here he says I will rebuild this temple. Yes others have resurrected people with the power of God, but not themself. Only God can resurrect. I-"God" will rebuild this temple-"his flesh" after three days. Jesus was talking about himself.
I think biblically speaking, only God can resurrect people. But here he says I will rebuild this temple. Yes others have resurrected people with the power of God, but not themself. Only God can resurrect. I-"God" will rebuild this temple-"his flesh" after three days. Jesus was talking about himself.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
First, I have no idea what you mean. You may have to explain.
Second, everything I described of Yeshua is right there in your scripture. He ordered his disciples to sell what they had and buy swords...but was satisfied with the two they already had....It is a fact, from the scripture, he begged his god for his life....
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Where does it say only God can "resurrect?".......
Did Yeshua even confirm he had resurrected?
resurrect or resusitate?????........examine the greek words being used....
This topic should be in its own thread really....For me there is a lot of information to the contrary......
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
The resurrection is one of many subjects concerning Jesus's deity, but the answer is in your post. "I will raise this temple." Biblically the only thing that has the power to raise anything from the dead is God. And he says that HE/ Jesus will raise Himself up. No other person can resurrect themself except the only person who was God that being Jesus. Jesus carefully used his word to show who he was. He says "I" will raise it up.
Secondly, you say that Jesus's disciples were ready to fight with the two sword they had, ok. These same people understandably ran away, one naked. They hid and locked themselves away. Three days or so later, these same people are publicly putting themselves in harms way saying Jesus has risen from the dead. All but one were executed by Rome. What was it that convinced them to do such a suicidal act?
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Where does the bible say that by the power of man alone one can resurrect?
YES, as a matter of fact when he walked into the room and talked to Thomas. If Jesus was resuscitated, he sure looked pretty good if he was just resuscitated. The Bible doesn't paint a haggard, worked over person at all.
kai
ragamuffin
In Jewish messianic tradition Messiah refers to a future Jewish king who rule the Jewish people during the messianic age .
Christians believe that prophecies in thehebrew scripture refer to a spiritual savior, and believe Jesus to be that Messiah
.
Two different versions of a messiah the hebrew messiah has not come
Christians believe that prophecies in thehebrew scripture refer to a spiritual savior, and believe Jesus to be that Messiah
.
Two different versions of a messiah the hebrew messiah has not come
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
This is a phrase consistent with several of the Gospel accounts. In John's Gospel chapter 2 it says:
"
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. "
Matthew 26:
"61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
And Mark 14:
"
57And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59But neither so did their witness agree together.
60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
It probably does deserve a thread of it's own.
I find it interesting for a couple reasons.
First, it makes a very solid reference to the Temple of Man.
Second, whenever Jesus is accused of being the "Son of God", He always refers to Himself as "The SOn of Man".
Regards,
Scott
"
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. "
Matthew 26:
"61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
And Mark 14:
"
57And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59But neither so did their witness agree together.
60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
It probably does deserve a thread of it's own.
I find it interesting for a couple reasons.
First, it makes a very solid reference to the Temple of Man.
Second, whenever Jesus is accused of being the "Son of God", He always refers to Himself as "The SOn of Man".
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It has no such thing to do with deity. Even if he did "resurrect" himself whichi I don't think he did...he would have done it by the power that God granted him. Such is the case of Lazarus. He asked his god to grant him the ability to bring his friend Lazarus back. If he soley had the ability to raise the dead because he was God then there would be no need for his prayers begging his god to help him "raise" his friend. Additionally, Martha was the one who did not assume him to be God when she said "I know that whatever you ask of God he will give it to you"......
Your own Paul, who I will admitt seems to also be confused at times, said that it was God that raised Yeshua....Not Yeshua himself...
Romans 10:9
For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up....
Acts 4:10 Jesus Christ ... whom God raised from the dead....
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead.
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Colossians 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 ... his Son ... whom he raised from the dead.
Yeshua raised or God raised?.....Regardless of who did the raising none of it has to do with Yeshua being God considering all of the other passages of him expressing himself separate from God.
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Not seperate from God, apart of God.
You can come up with many interpretations of the bible saying Jesus isn't God. Heck, I can show you where the bible talks about buggers. If I ever need a concordance of Scripture that says Jesus isn't God, this thread is it. My question is why the white lambs without defect? God got mad when the Israelites tried to use lambs with defect.
Muffled
Jesus in me
On the contrary, Jesus did not say look at me as a representation of the Father.
This is true in the sense of the omnipresence of God. Our finite state limits our ability to see the inifinity of God.
On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father. Since Jesus is the embodiment of the Father it makes sense that He would say so. Moses saw God, "face to face" Ex 34:5 ¶ And Jehovah descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of Jehovah.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
As John the baptist said...He who is sent speaks the word of God....Yeshua was sent to represent God. This is why in his prayer to his god he said I have finished the tasked you gave me to do....I have given them your word....I have spoken your name to them.....
He was God's representative who God taught what to say and sent to relay the message.
This is contrary to what Yeshua taught. He taught that he was not God but he and God were one in "Purpose" as he hoped and prayed to his god that ALL of his followers would be one in purpose with THEM....
Where in that verse does it say "Moses" saw the face of God? I have charged that you and christians like you don't quote your own scripture correctly because you don't know it or you fail to read in context. Nowhere in that verse does it say Moses saw the face of God.
You have a remarkable lack of understanding when it come to your scripture. Even if you tried your hardest, that verse would never say or mean what you say it does. Why is it that I know your scripture better than you and I'm not even a christian, muslim or a jew??????? Now observe and LEARN SOMETHING FOR A CHANGE....instead of believeing everything you hear......Moses DID NOT SEE THE FACE OF HIS god...... If he did then that would crtradict what your god said in the chapter before the one you quoted.....
Exodus 33:19:23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]19 The LORD replied, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, `the LORD,' to you. I will show kindness to anyone I choose, and I will show mercy to anyone I choose.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
20 "But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]21 The LORD continued, "Stand here on this rock beside me".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 As my glorious presence passes by, I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
23 Then I will remove my hand, and you will see me from behind. But my face will not be seen."[/FONT]
The next chapter where you quoted actually picks up where God has come down in the "presence" of Moses but as described in the previous chpater. Moses NEVER saw his face.
How can we trust in your preception of Yeshua and who he was when you don't even know your own scripture. And speaking of Yeshua, if you truly believed Moses saw the face of God and lived then it would make Yeshua a liar....who must not have known the scripture. And since you believe Yeshua is God, did your god forget that Moses saw his face, (as you claim)?
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God,...........
Was Yeshua lieing, forgot or did he just misunderstand?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Sure they are.......ALL of those quotes showed they were.....
Yeshua and his god were one in purpose but not one in the same.......as Yeshua prayed to his god that ALL of his followers would be one with them.....
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
You can pretend to be naive about this all you want but we have debated the controversial verses inthe Qu'ran and you ought to know by now that I am a Christian who believes that the Qu'ran and Bible are the Word of God and that there is no contradiction in that Word.
Of course the Muslims get all in a snit when Mohammed is listed as a sinner and Jesus is not. For someone who isn't a Muslim why do you react in the same way? After all Mohammed is not God and never claimed to be.
I don't see any reason why I can't step on the toes of Christians who get uppity in their pride and think that God only speaks to them personnaly. Why should Christians act like Jews who will not accept the New Testament as the Word of God by saying that the Qu'ran is not the Word of God? It seems to me that any person should be willing to accept the Word of God whatever messenger God uses to procaim it.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Are you suggesting he wasn't?
Exodus 33:23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]23[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] Then I will remove my hand, and you will see me from behind. But my face will not be seen."[/FONT]
If I saw you from behind then don't you think I was looking at your back?
Only if you prefer to speculate and read more into it that is not apparent.
Ahhh.....now we agree. It wasn't that saw he God "literally" face to face. It was his perception he was face to face with God. In the last post, you didn't go into detail.
In the case of Yeshua he wasn't God but was sent by God to give the word of God to the people. In his case he spoke for God...Basically he was God's representative speaking on behalf of God.
Ok...I have no problem with Yeshua trying his best to describe God. That wasn't really the point I was trying to make but so far I'm sort of in agreement with you.
I think I might start my own bible translation..... The Bible By (Dirty Penguin)....
John 1:18
No one has ever seen the Father at any time; except he whom God has sent, who was nearest to the Father, he has told us about him.
ehhh!!!
Not bad but I'll stick to my day job........::cover:
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Here we go again. Look you rode that (Apple Pie) Gravy train for as long as he was man enough to stick around. Now he has fled this site leaving you holding the bag. He tried his hardest to turn arabic upside down using Lane's Lexicon and quoting translators of the Quran that translated it from the classical arabic...but what he didn't realize is he (Apple Pie) was no scholar and had a serious lack of understanding of the arabic language and the Quran. I used the same scholar he used to refute his claim. That scholar was not in agreement with him and incidentally that scholar also had used the SAME lexicon (Apple Pie) was using. As I told him as well as you. The Quran is in TOTAL disagreement with you as far as the deity of Yeshua, crucifixion and that God has a son. If there were such a verse in your favor it would have been displayed...instead...he left this forum with his tail between his legs. This wasn't the first or the last forum he had been a member of using those tactics. You bought into it.....But he was wrong.
Fine...great......But this is a change in direction from when we were debating in that thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/778499-post222.html
The claim that was made was about Muhammed's wives. Muhammed vs. Solomon...You be the judge.
I agree. Christian, Muslim or Jew....all fair game when it comes to scripture they thump.
You may be in the minority of christians who except the Quran as the word of God. Now since you believe it's the word of God why are you a christian and not a muslim? Contrary to what you might think the Quran and it's way (Islam) does not agree with your christian tradition of making Yeshua God.
Be careful because of your christian brethren may kick you out of the club....