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Jesus (pbuh) was said "Elahi" , in his language " Aramaic"

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
error typing: in arabic spell (typing)

إلهي,إلهي , لما تركتني ؟؟؟
and this sentence (in arabic ) it's spell/phonitics, word by word like this:

-Arabic spelling :Elahi
, Elahi , limatark'tani ?
-Aramaic spelling: Elahi, Elahi, lama sabachthani ?
it's like this
إلهي,إلهي , لما تركتني ؟؟؟
and this sentence (in arabic ) it's spell/phonitics, word by word like this:

-Arabic spelling :Elahi
, Elahi , lima (space) tark'tani ?
-Aramaic spelling: Elahi, Elahi, lama sabachthani ?
 
Last edited:

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
There is nothing surprising or particularly illuminating about this.
Jews have been speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic for thousands of years.
Many Jews in my family speak Maghreb Arabic, my father still understands it.
Half of the people who live in Israel today, come from families who spoke Arabic and practiced Hebrew as part of their tradition, the usage of these languages among Jews (in this case Jesus) and the similarity between them is natural to many here.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
the source of your information about the aramiac language

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "
this sentence above is hebrew or aramiac , i guess it's aramaic , i want you to translate it to hebrew then put the spelling (as i did with arabic)

No, what I'm saying is that "Eloi" is a mistake. It is an error in the gospel text. Because there is no such word as "Eloi" in either Hebrew or Aramaic. What I am saying is that whoever wrote the gospel probably couldn't figure out how to make the Hebrew or the Aramaic sounds fit the Greek alphabet, and so they spelled out the word the way they thought it would sound in Greek. But there just is no such word as "Eloi," so it is either a corruption of the Hebrew "Eli" or the Aramaic "Elahi." Also "sabachthani" is a similar attempt to make the word pronounceable to Greek speakers: it should have been transliterated "shevaktani."

But more than that, the verse that Jesus is portrayed as speaking here-- which comes from a psalm-- is incorrectly related. Jews have never mixed Hebrew and Aramaic together at random when writing or speaking Biblical texts. Hebrew is the sacred language. Aramaic was a language of daily use. A translation might be in Aramaic, but they would not have mixed in Hebrew, in case anyone mistakenly might have thought the Biblical text was written originally in Aramaic-- everyone needed to be clear that the Aramaic was a translation (in Aramaic, the word for "translation" is "targum"). So the gospel writer clearly mixed together the Hebrew of the original psalm, and the Aramaic of the translation of the psalm. But Jesus wouldn't have recited it in a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic. He would have recited either the Hebrew, or the Aramaic, but not mixed them up. Probably he would have recited the Hebrew, because almost nobody used the Aramaic translations of the psalms for the purpose of prayer, they used them for study.

And in any case, Jesus probably didn't just recite the one verse, he probably recited the whole psalm. But Jews don't, traditionally, number the psalms. We refer to them by using the first or second verse as though it were the title of the psalm. So when the gospel says that Jesus recited the second verse of psalm 22, they really mean that he recited all of psalm 22. We can say this is likely because referring to psalms using the first or second verse is such a universal custom among Jews-- everyone has always done so-- and it is known that the custom predates Jesus, and persists long after his time-- Jews still do so today.

So, either what Jesus recited was the psalm beginning with the Hebrew:
אלי אלי למה עזבתני
pronounced: "Ay-LEE, ay-LEE, LAH-mah ah-zahv-TAH-nee"

Or the Aramaic translation of that psalm, beginning with:
אלהי אלהי מה מטול שבקתני
pronounced "eh-lah-HEE, eh-lah-HEE, MAH meh-TOLL sheh-vahk-TAH-nee."

As for my information on the Aramaic language, it comes from having learned Aramaic, and extensively studied Aramaic texts during my studies to become a rabbi, and my studies for a Master's degree in Rabbinic Literature. If you want to know some of the resources I have used in that endeavor, they include:

A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi and the Midrashic Literature, by Marcus Jastrow
A Dictionary of Jewish Babylonian Aramaic
A Dictionary of Judean Aramaic
A Dictionary of Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, all three by Michael Sokoloff
Aramaic-Hebrew-English Dictionary, by Ezra Zion Melamed
A Dictionary of Samaritan Aramaic, by Abraham Tal
A Manual of Babylonian Jewish Aramaic, by David Marcus
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by William Holladay
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Koehler, Baumgartner, and Stamm
Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, by Franz Rosenthal
Grammar of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, by William Stevenson
A Short Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, by Alger Johns
A Grammar of Galilean Aramaic, by Caspar Levias
A Grammar of the Aramaic Idiom Contained in the Babylonian Talmud, With Constant Reference to Gaonic Literature, by Caspar Levias
The Targum of Onkelos
The Targum of Jonathan
The Jerusalem Targum
Plus extensive reading in the midrashic literature, in Talmud, in Geonic literature, and in documents, fragments, inscriptions and recovered texts from archaeological sites in Israel, and from the Cairo Geniza, as well as many scholarly journal articles on the subject of Aramaic and Hebrew texts.

As for my contention about Psalm 22, it has been raised by a number of scholars, including Rabbi Michael Goldberg, in his excellent book, Jews and Christians: Getting Our Stories Straight.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
There is nothing surprising or particularly illuminating about this.
Jews have been speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic for thousands of years.
Many Jews in my family speak Maghreb Arabic, my father still understands it.
Half of the people who live in Israel today, come from families who spoke Arabic and practiced Hebrew as part of their tradition, the usage of these languages among Jews (in this case Jesus) and the similarity between them is natural to many here.
yes you right
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
No, what I'm saying is that "Eloi" is a mistake. It is an error in the gospel text. Because there is no such word as "Eloi" in either Hebrew or Aramaic. What I am saying is that whoever wrote the gospel probably couldn't figure out how to make the Hebrew or the Aramaic sounds fit the Greek alphabet, and so they spelled out the word the way they thought it would sound in Greek. But there just is no such word as "Eloi," so it is either a corruption of the Hebrew "Eli" or the Aramaic "Elahi." Also "sabachthani" is a similar attempt to make the word pronounceable to Greek speakers: it should have been transliterated "shevaktani."

But more than that, the verse that Jesus is portrayed as speaking here-- which comes from a psalm-- is incorrectly related. Jews have never mixed Hebrew and Aramaic together at random when writing or speaking Biblical texts. Hebrew is the sacred language. Aramaic was a language of daily use. A translation might be in Aramaic, but they would not have mixed in Hebrew, in case anyone mistakenly might have thought the Biblical text was written originally in Aramaic-- everyone needed to be clear that the Aramaic was a translation (in Aramaic, the word for "translation" is "targum"). So the gospel writer clearly mixed together the Hebrew of the original psalm, and the Aramaic of the translation of the psalm. But Jesus wouldn't have recited it in a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic. He would have recited either the Hebrew, or the Aramaic, but not mixed them up. Probably he would have recited the Hebrew, because almost nobody used the Aramaic translations of the psalms for the purpose of prayer, they used them for study.

And in any case, Jesus probably didn't just recite the one verse, he probably recited the whole psalm. But Jews don't, traditionally, number the psalms. We refer to them by using the first or second verse as though it were the title of the psalm. So when the gospel says that Jesus recited the second verse of psalm 22, they really mean that he recited all of psalm 22. We can say this is likely because referring to psalms using the first or second verse is such a universal custom among Jews-- everyone has always done so-- and it is known that the custom predates Jesus, and persists long after his time-- Jews still do so today.

So, either what Jesus recited was the psalm beginning with the Hebrew:
אלי אלי למה עזבתני
pronounced: "Ay-LEE, ay-LEE, LAH-mah ah-zahv-TAH-nee"

Or the Aramaic translation of that psalm, beginning with:
אלהי אלהי מה מטול שבקתני
pronounced "eh-lah-HEE, eh-lah-HEE, MAH meh-TOLL sheh-vahk-TAH-nee."

As for my information on the Aramaic language, it comes from having learned Aramaic, and extensively studied Aramaic texts during my studies to become a rabbi, and my studies for a Master's degree in Rabbinic Literature. If you want to know some of the resources I have used in that endeavor, they include:

A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi and the Midrashic Literature, by Marcus Jastrow
A Dictionary of Jewish Babylonian Aramaic
A Dictionary of Judean Aramaic
A Dictionary of Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, all three by Michael Sokoloff
Aramaic-Hebrew-English Dictionary, by Ezra Zion Melamed
A Dictionary of Samaritan Aramaic, by Abraham Tal
A Manual of Babylonian Jewish Aramaic, by David Marcus
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by William Holladay
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Koehler, Baumgartner, and Stamm
Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, by Franz Rosenthal
Grammar of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, by William Stevenson
A Short Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, by Alger Johns
A Grammar of Galilean Aramaic, by Caspar Levias
A Grammar of the Aramaic Idiom Contained in the Babylonian Talmud, With Constant Reference to Gaonic Literature, by Caspar Levias
The Targum of Onkelos
The Targum of Jonathan
The Jerusalem Targum
Plus extensive reading in the midrashic literature, in Talmud, in Geonic literature, and in documents, fragments, inscriptions and recovered texts from archaeological sites in Israel, and from the Cairo Geniza, as well as many scholarly journal articles on the subject of Aramaic and Hebrew texts.

As for my contention about Psalm 22, it has been raised by a number of scholars, including Rabbi Michael Goldberg, in his excellent book, Jews and Christians: Getting Our Stories Straight.
thank you for this great job
 
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