Jesus Prayed

[loverofhumanity]

With one big difference, and what you say is true about no one equal to God. And Jesus yes, was God's humble servant. Humble, unto death.
John 1:14 says, And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

According to the Bible, God is a Spirit and so we don’t worship Him physically only in Spirit. Christ’s ‘son hood’ was a spiritual not a physical relationship as God is Spirit. We can all be ‘sons of God according to the Bible. So it is a title, a term used to convey a close spiritual relationship.

That Jesus was born into this world does not mean God became a physical man just that Christ reflected God as a pure mirror reflects the light of the sun, although we see the sun in the mirror, the sun has not descended into the mirror.

As to the Word and ‘only’. There is only one sun and so too there is only one Sun of Truth which rises and sets so we have the Sun of Krishna, Moses, Christ, Muhammad and so on which have risen and set in Their Day.

In the Book of Revelation Christ clearly explains that He adopts a New Name and is not known only as Christ. To say that one can only be saved by the Name of Christ contradicts Christ’s own Words. Well before He appeared Hindus, Buddhists and Jews were all saved because the Word refers to God Manifestations not only Christ.

And God’s Manifestations (Word) has always appeared to men in every age.

 

[dybmh]

You sure believe in killing the messenger I see!

Well, if the message is skewed... I think it should be corrected.

Go take this up with the Christian "god", it's supposed to be his "word", it has NOTHING to do with me.

Well, it's not word of the Christian god. And ya, maybe all things considered, refraining from commenting on it would be good.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

if jesus were god and jesus prayed, isn't that bizarre that jesus prayed to himself, asked himself for something he could give himself as god?

Jesus is NOT God. He is an ordinary man, who prayed to God the same as anyone else.

 

[dybmh]

I've been on Internet forums for about 20 years, and I think the 30,000 Christian denomination number is low. Given since NONE of them can agree on much of anything about their mythology.

Wow, none of them agree on much of anything? How many differences can you name?

But regardless, you missed the most important part of my statement on WHY i have such a problem with jesus having to pray or read from the silly primitive pagan texts of that time period to learn about himself/"god. So here is my statement again, I will >>>>> <<<<< the part you failed to read:

>>>>>"I have always had a problem with this claim because ever since my first spiritual experience in what some call Heaven, God has ALWAYS given me the spiritual answers that I am seeking, and I'm a nobody. <<<<<So I will never believe in this Jesus myth. No "god" would have to pray or go learn about himself, "god", from the teachers of all the primitive mythologies of the time period."

I read that part. I'm not sure how to respond. It's kind of hard to believe, but, I don't want to devalue your experiences.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for a god to pray to itself, I also agree that a god would not need to learn about itself.

Strangely though, I also don't think it makes sense to criticise Christians who do believe that Jesus is God. People come to their beliefs in a variety of ways. And if you believe the myth about 30,000 denominations (and won't educate yourself about it), then it's only fair to allow others to believe their chosen myths too.

 

[Eli G]

Hello Eli. Thank you for the thoughful reply. It appears that Luke disagrees with the analysis your brought.

Luke 4:8

"Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (προσκυνήσεις) the Lord your God and serve him only.’”​

That's virtually the same word ( present tense vs past tense ) used in Matthew 14:33.

"Then the disciples worshiped ( προσεκύνησαν ) him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed.
​

And, I left out this example from my previous reply because I'm quite sure that my friend doesn't believe in the ressurection. But, now I can include it. Matthew 28:9, after the ressurection:

"And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped ( προσεκύνησαν) him.
​

So, here we have the disciples directing something to Jesus which according to Jesus' own words is only supposed to be directed to Jehovah and Jehovah ONLY, and Jesus had the opportunity to correct them, but didn't.

(...)

You do know that your analysis on that greek word is incomplete, don't you?

Try better ... Quote here where you can find that word in the NT, besides when it is applied to Jesus, and we'll talk after that. I'm giving you the chance to rectify in public what others can check by themselves. I'm being good.

 

[dybmh]

You do know that your analysis on that greek word is incomplete, don't you?

Try better ... Quote here where you can find that word in the NT, besides when it is applied to Jesus, and we'll talk after that. I'm giving you the chance to rectify in public what others can check by themselves. I'm being good.

Here's all the occurences. I'll go through them and see if I can do a proper analysis.

Strong's Greek: 4352. προσκυνέω (proskuneó) -- 60 Occurrences

 

[Eli G]

Here's all the occurences. I'll go through them and see if I can do a proper analysis.

Strong's Greek: 4352. προσκυνέω (proskuneó) -- 60 Occurrences

Thanks. I will quote here two of them directly with something in common: it is Jesus who is using that Greek word. I am bolding the translation in English, so you can understand what Jesus said with it:

Matt. 18:23 “That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he started to settle them, a man was brought in who owed him 10,000 talents. 25 But because he did not have the means to pay it back, his master ordered him and his wife and his children and all the things he owned to be sold and payment to be made. 26 So the slave fell down and did obeisance to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay back everything to you.’ 27 Moved with pity at this, the master of that slave let him off and canceled his debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him 100 de·narʹi·i, and grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back whatever you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell down and began to beg him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30 However, he was not willing, but he went and had him thrown into prison until he could pay back what he owed. 31 When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they became greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all the things that had happened. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ 34 With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed. 35 My heavenly Father will also deal with you in the same way if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Rev. 3:9 Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying—look! I will make them come and bow before your feet and make them know that I have loved you.

Do you think Jesus meant TO WORSHIP, like we only can do to God when he used that Greek word in these passages?

Besides that, I would like to help you with your quote of Jesus' words in the temptation:

Matt. 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

He didn't say it is only to Jehovah you must proskyneo.
He used ONLY when he talk about latreuo (to render sacred service), saying it is only to Jehovah you should latreuo.

LATREUO is never give to anyone but to God, never to Jesus, and it is used 21 times in NT. But it is not prohibited to give proskyneo to whom deserves it as you can see in the use Jesus gave to that word in Matt. 18:26 and in Rev. 3:9; and of course, it can be given to God too, since he deserves it more than anyone else. It depends on what kind of honor you are trying to give and to whom.

Actually, you can bring here where in the LXX it is used that word. Preferably, quote here a few of the cases in the translation of the Greek OT (Septuagint), so everyone can see how that word was used by Jews when they translated the OT in Greek two centuries before Christ.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Fool]

Not bizarre at all. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have communicated with one another eternally.

the idea is that some believe jesus is god absolute but that can't be the case if god the father is greater than god the son.

 

[Fool]

Like the sun reflected in a perfectly polished mirror. We can say we see the sun in the mirror but the mirror is not the actual sun but a reflection of it. That’s how we understand Christ. That He was a reflection of God, of perfection, but not the essence of God. That’s why He commented ‘My Father is greater than I’

a part is not an absolute, or the whole. a part is part of the whole.

there is no separation, no otherness because is omnipresent, pantheistic, absolute

 

[Fool]

Jesus is NOT God. He is an ordinary man, who prayed to God the same as anyone else.

everything is god, or god is everything

 

[dybmh]

@Eli G, I'm working on the greek word analysis... making good progress, but it's going to take some time to complete.

Everything I'm seeing is pointing back to Exodus 34:14, yes, it's using the same greek word. And yes, there are examples in the OT where this greek word is used when people worship Jehovah. I don't have a count for it yet. Also, yes, it's used directed at human masters, royalty as well.

But clearly there is a prohibtion that needs to be respected, else, Jesus's rebuke of Satan would have been invalid.

So the question is, when is it prohibited, and when is it not? My claim is that it is prohibited if it is directed to a divine power. That is, a direct literal understanding of the prohibtion in Exodus 34:14. That would exclude prostration to the sun, moon, stars, angels, and demons, etc.

In the 2 examples in Matthew, it is clear to me, that the discples had been convinced that Jesus was a divine power. He had just walked on water, and the discisples said, if i recall, "truly" you are the son of God. and then they prostrated / worshipped / did obesience. And the same for the episode after the ressurection. They were convinced he was not of this world. So the prostration in those cases, is prohibited, depending on what the disciples beleived. Jesus, knowing what is in their heart and mind, should have corrected them, unless, of course, Jesus believed that he was God, and the disciples beleived that he was God, because, then, none of them would have been perceived as transgressing. That's my position as of now.

OK, I'm going to go back to work now.

 

[dybmh]

The magi come to visit baby Jesus - Matthew 2:2 Matthew 2:8 Matthew 2:11

2:2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose, and we have come to worship (προσκυνῆσαι) him.”
2:8 "Then he told them, “Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship (προσκυνήσω) him, too!”
2:11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
​

Satan tempts Jesus - Matthew 4:9 Matthew 4:10 Luke 4:7 Luke 4:8

4:9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship (προσκυνήσῃς) me.”
4:10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship (προσκυνήσεις) the Lord your God and serve only him."

4:7 I will give it all to you if you will worship (προσκυνήσῃς) me
4:8 Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship (προσκυνήσεις) the Lord your God and serve only him.’
​

A leper asks Jesus for healing - Matthew 8:2

8:2 Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached him and knelt before (προσεκύνει) him. “Lord,” the man said, “if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean.”
​

A synagogue leader asks Jesus for healing - Matthew 9:18

9:18 As Jesus was saying this, the leader of a synagogue came and knelt before (προσεκύνει) him. “My daughter has just died,” he said, “but you can bring her back to life again if you just come and lay your hand on her.”
​

After Jesus walks on water - Matthew 14:33

14:33 Then the disciples worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed.
​

A cannanite woman is begging Jesus to heal her daughter - Matthew 15:25

15:25 But she came and worshiped (προσεκύνει) him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”
​

Parable: a servant is begging for mercy from his master - Matthew 18:26

18:26 “But the man fell down (προσεκύνει) before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’
​

A mother makes a request from Jesus - Matthew 20:20

20:20 Then the mother of James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Jesus with her sons. She knelt respectfully (προσκυνοῦσα) to ask a favor.
​

After the ressurection - Matthew 28:9 Matthew 28:17 Luke 24:51-52 *NOTE: Jesus had left*

28:9 And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him.
28:17 When they saw him, they worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him—but some of them doubted!

24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven.
24:52 So they worshiped (προσκυνήσαντες) him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy.
​

A possessed man runs up to Jesus - Mark 5:6

5:6 When Jesus was still some distance away, the man saw him, ran to meet him, and bowed low (προσεκύνησεν) before him.
​

Soldiers mock Jesus before the crucifixion - Mark 15:19

And they struck him on the head with a reed stick, spit on him, and dropped to their knees (προσεκύνουν) in mock worship.​

 

[dybmh]

Jesus speaking to a samaritan woman - John 4:19-24

4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “you must be a prophet.
4:20 So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship (προσεκύνησαν), while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim, where our ancestors worshiped (προσκυνεῖν)?”
4:21 Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship (προσκυνήσετε) the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem.
4:22 You Samaritans worship (προσκυνεῖτε) what you do not know; we worship (προσκυνοῦμεν) what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
4:23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers (προσκυνηταὶ) will worship (προσκυνήσουσιν) the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.
4:24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship (προσκυνοῦντας) him must worship (προσκυνεῖν) in spirit and in truth.”
​

Jesus speaks to a man who's blindness was cured by him - John 9:38

9:38 “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped (προσεκύνησεν) Jesus.
​

Greeks come to a feast before passover - John 12:20

12:20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship (προσκυνήσωσιν) at the festival.
​

Stephen quoting the book of Amos - Acts of the Apostles 7:43

7:43 No, you carried your pagan gods— the shrine of Molech, the star of your god Rephan, and the images you made to worship (προσκυνεῖν) them. So I will send you into exile as far away as Babylon.’​

Philip meets a man on his way to Jerusalem - Acts of the Apostles 8:27

8:27 So he started out, and he met the treasurer of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under the Kandake, the queen of Ethiopia. The eunuch had gone to Jerusalem to worship (προσκυνήσων),
​

Peter meets Cornelius and corrects him for worshipping him - Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26

10:25 As Peter entered his home, Cornelius fell at his feet and worshiped (προσεκύνησεν) him.
10:26 But Peter pulled him up and said, “Stand up! I’m a human being just like you!”
​

Paul describes what happens when an unbeliever hears prophecy - 1 Corinthians 14:25

14:25 As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship (προσκυνήσει) God, declaring, “God is truly here among you.”
​

Paul claims Jesus is worshipped by the angels - Hebrews 1:6

1:6 And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, “Let all of God’s angels worship (προσκυνησάτωσαν) him.”
​

Paul is describing Jacob's death - Hebrews 11:21

11:21 It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship (προσεκύνησεν) as he leaned on his staff.
​

To the "angel of the church" - Revelation 3:9

3:9 Look, I will force those who belong to Satan’s synagogue—those liars who say they are Jews but are not—to come and bow down (προσκυνήσουσιν) at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.​

A vision of heaven and prophecies - Revelation 4:10 Revelation 5:14 Revelation 7:11-12 Revelation 9:20 Revelation 11:1 Revelation 11:16-17 Revelation 13:4 Revelation 13:8 Revelation 13:12 Revelation 13:15 Revelation 14:7 Revelation 14:9 Revelation 14:11 Revelation 15:4 Revelation 16:2 Revelation 19:4 Revelation 19:10 *The angel corrects him* Revelation 19:20 Revelation 20:4 Revelation 22:8-9 *The angel corrects him*

4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down and worship (προσκυνήσουσιν) the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever). And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,
5:14 And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) the Lamb.
7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) God.
7:12 They sang, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
9:20 But the people who did not die in these plagues still refused to repent of their evil deeds and turn to God. They continued to worship (προσκυνήσουσιν) demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—idols that can neither see nor hear nor walk
11:1 Then I was given a measuring stick, and I was told, “Go and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers (προσκυνοῦντας)
11:16 The twenty-four elders sitting on their thrones before God fell with their faces to the ground and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him.
11:17 And they said, “We give thanks to you, Lord God, the Almighty, the one who is and who always was, for now you have assumed your great power and have begun to reign.
13:4 They worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) the dragon for giving the beast such power, and they also worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) the beast. “Who is as great as the beast?” they exclaimed. “Who is able to fight against him?”
13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped (προσκυνήσουσιν) the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast. And he required all the earth and its people to worship (προσκυνήσουσιν) the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed
13:15 He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship (προσκυνήσωσιν) it must die
14:7 “Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship (προσκυνήσατε) him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”
14:9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships (προσκυνεῖ) the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand
14:11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped (προσκυνοῦντες) the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”
15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship (προσκυνήσουσιν) before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed.”
16:2 So the first angel left the Temple and poured out his bowl on the earth, and horrible, malignant sores broke out on everyone who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped (προσκυνοῦντας) his statue
19:4 Then the twenty-four elders and the four living beings fell down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) God, who was sitting on the throne. They cried out, “Amen! Praise the LORD!”
19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship (προσκυνῆσαι) him, but he said, “No, don’t. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship (προσκύνησον) only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus
19:20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped (προσκυνοῦντας) his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur
20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years
22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship (προσκυνῆσαι) at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
22:9 But he said, “No, don’t". I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship (προσκύνησον) only God!”​

 

[dybmh]

@Estro Felino ,

If I recall you know greek. I'm attempting a greek word study on προσκυνέω (proskuneó). I've noticed 4 variants of the stem. Do you know if these variations communicate a nuance of meaning? Perhaps one is more intense and the other is more casual? Or maybe it's part of the verb's conjugation? Or maybe it's poetic? Here are the four variants I've noticed:

προσκυνή-- ( including the ή )
προσεκύν-- ( incuding the ε )
προσεκύνη-- ( including both ε and ή )
προσκυν-- ( omitting both ε and ή )

Thank you very kindly,

 

[stvdv]

if jesus were god and jesus prayed, isn't that bizarre that jesus prayed to himself, asked himself for something he could give himself as god?

True

IMO:
That proves that Jesus was not God at the time He prayed...He realized later on, that He and God are one...
Or that the writers added praying; maybe to encourage disciples to pray or for other reasons

Was Jesus praying for Help, when on the cross? If He did not then he might have realized He is God at that moment. Because such torture shows really what you're made up. You can't fake it at that time

 

[stvdv]

if jesus were god and jesus prayed, isn't that bizarre that jesus prayed to himself, asked himself for something he could give himself as god?

True

I thought of that too, when being with Sai Baba, who claimed to be God, and never prayed Himself to God in the 10 years I was with Him

 

[Eli G]

He received from God the position he has, so Jesus is not and has never been equal to God.

Heb. 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Fil. 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Eph. 1:19 (...) It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

If Jesus had not received from God the things that he has, could he have given them to himself alone by himself?
No, he couldn't have. He had to receive them from the Creator of the entire Universe.

The same way, since Jesus is the high priest of God, it is impossible that he can be equal to the God he serve as such.
Actually, it was not him, Jesus, who appointed himself as high priest of God:

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Melchizedek.”
7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

So it is obvious that the Christ of the trinitarian Christendom is not the Jesus we can know through the Scriptures, but a totally alien invention.

 

[Sand Dancer]

if jesus were god and jesus prayed, isn't that bizarre that jesus prayed to himself, asked himself for something he could give himself as god?

The Bible was written by many people with different views. 4 groups wrote in Genesis alone. There is a camp that believes Jesus is God and another that believes Jesus is God's son. There is no coherent idea in the Bible, not with so many authors.

 

[Eli G]

(...) There is no coherent idea in the Bible, not with so many authors.

We, Jehovah's witnesses, don't see such thing in the Scriptures.

What you say is like saying that because scientists are so contradictory among themselves in their conclussions, it means that the Universe cannot be understood.

 

[Sand Dancer]

We, Jehovah's witnesses, don't see such thing in the Scriptures.

What you say is like saying that because scientists are so contradictory among themselves in their conclussions, it means that the Universe cannot be understood.

Well, I guess It depends. If it's something they can do tests and studies on, then those conclusions should be similar, if not identical. If it's just observation, the conclusions could differ. Hebrew scripture, however, is not updated, so you're kind of stuck with what they believed in those days, and are at the mercy of different opinions. Science always updates.