Jesus Prayed

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes. That Elijah prayed to God before it is said that the boy was brought back to life. If God wanted everyone to be able to perform resurrections, He would have made it so. Yes, Elijah was flesh and blood, but and he obviously wasn't God. But certainly not everyone can pray to God and the Almighty brings back dead persons to life on the earth, isn't that true? So Elijah was flesh and blood, but was a prophet blessed by the Almighty God. I cannot bring back a dead person and I'm sure you can't either. At least I hope you don't say you can.

What does any of that do with my comment that Jesus is not God, that he prayed just like all of us do? I mean, you hit the reply button, but then didn't reply to the content of my text.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yeah, I got the info, not yet the link, but a trustable source. Do your own research.

No, that's not how it works.

It's up to you to back up your claims with facts, not tell others to go find it for you.

Besides, I'm not about to go around spending untold hours trying to research all the countless, and probably false, claims people make.

 

[Ancient Soul]

What's there to debate? The inconsistencies exist. That's 1 fault. You said there were 1000s of faults. You should easily be able to come up with 20 good ones. If all you're saying is that there are 1000s of scriptural inconsistencies. I'm guessing that's still false. I'll do my own searching and see how many I can come up with.

Here we go again, you asked for 20, I already gave you 30. So stop trying to change the rules after receiving what you asked for. I'm not going to even bother trying to continue discussing anything with you if you keep on changing things every time you're proven wrong, or you just drop out altogether. I'm here to discuss spiritual matters and not play wack-a-mole with someone who doesn't seem to want to play by the rules.

 

[dybmh]

Here we go again, you asked for 20, I already gave you 30. So stop trying to change the rules after receiving what you asked for. I'm not going to even bother trying to continue discussing anything with you if you keep on changing things every time you're proven wrong, or you just drop out altogether. I'm here to discuss spiritual matters and not play wack-a-mole with someone who doesn't seem to want to play by the rules.

Scriptural contradictions is 1 flaw. You said there were 1000s. Even if we only look at contradictions. I searched last night and found that most lists end at 30. There's one list of 700. But those aren't contradictions just poking fun at embarrassing things in scripture. You can add that to the list if you want? There's silly stuff in scripture. Now you have 2 faults. See, I'm helping.

I also found a site that claims 50,000 contradictions. That was a pretty interesting list. I didn't count, but I don't think there were actually 50,000. A lot of the contradictions were between OT and NT, and those don't count because the NT replaced the OT.

So either way, the claim that there's 1000s of faults seems to be false. And really, it's just 1 fault.

And I notice you still haven't brought a single thing that the Christian denominations disagree on. You claimed there were so many differences that you think there's more than 30,000 denominations, you don't need to research this myth. You know it's true based on experience. So? Why can't you make list of these differences?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah, I got the info, not yet the link, but a trustable source. Do your own research.

The responsibility for proving your claims is YOURS. It is not the responsibility of your interlocutor to do your research for you. If you don't want to be bothered, that's fine. But it means you need to back off.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Scriptural contradictions is 1 flaw. You said there were 1000s. Even if we only look at contradictions. I searched last night and found that most lists end at 30. There's one list of 700. But those aren't contradictions just poking fun at embarrassing things in scripture. You can add that to the list if you want? There's silly stuff in scripture. Now you have 2 faults. See, I'm helping.

I also found a site that claims 50,000 contradictions. That was a pretty interesting list. I didn't count, but I don't think there were actually 50,000. A lot of the contradictions were between OT and NT, and those don't count because the NT replaced the OT.

So either way, the claim that there's 1000s of faults seems to be false. And really, it's just 1 fault.

And I notice you still haven't brought a single thing that the Christian denominations disagree on. You claimed there were so many differences that you think there's more than 30,000 denominations, you don't need to research this myth. You know it's true based on experience. So? Why can't you make list of these differences?

I already addressed this issue, reading comprehension is important in a debate forum.

Here, re-read this until you figure it out:

" I'm not going to even bother trying to continue discussing anything with you if you keep on changing things every time you're proven wrong, or you just drop out altogether. I'm here to discuss spiritual matters and not play wack-a-mole with someone who doesn't seem to want to play by the rules.

 

[dybmh]

I already addressed this issue, reading comprehension is important in a debate forum.

Here, re-read this until you figure it out:

" I'm not going to even bother trying to continue discussing anything with you if you keep on changing things every time you're proven wrong, or you just drop out altogether. I'm here to discuss spiritual matters and not play wack-a-mole with someone who doesn't seem to want to play by the rules.

Translation: I don't really know very many differences in the Christian denominations. And I was just talking out of my rear end.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

As to the Word and ‘only’. There is only one sun and so too there is only one Sun of Truth which rises and sets so we have the Sun of Krishna, Moses, Christ, Muhammad and so on which have risen and set in Their Day.

Nicely said only "in their day." Perhaps we should also add in their place. So no "ONLY" for ever or for all.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Translation: I don't really know very many differences in the Christian denominations. And I was just talking out of my rear end.

No, I just feel it's a waste of my time dealing with dishonest people.

I gave you what you requested and all you do is keep claiming I didn't. So I have no reason to keep on getting jerked around by pointing out all of the things Christians disagree upon, which would take YEARS, when you would just keep on saying I didn't. Childish.

 

[dybmh]

No, I just feel it's a waste of my time dealing with dishonest people.

I gave you what you requested and all you do is keep claiming I didn't. So I have no reason to keep on getting jerked around by pointing out all of the things Christians disagree upon, which would take YEARS, when you would just keep on saying I didn't. Childish.

No, at best you gave me 50% of what I asked for. You gave a list of contradictions, but haven't been able to come up with any list of any kind of the differences between Christian denominations.

It wouldn't take years to type out 20 things that differentiate Christian denominations. That's what I asked for. Not all the differences. ( Reading comprehension, and honesty are things you value, right? )

You've been on internet forums for over 20 years, and that experience has led to the conclusion that there are over 30,000 denominations. So 20 things should be a quick little typie-typie. It might take years for you to come up with those 20 things, since there isn't a list on a website that can simply be copied.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nicely said only "in their day." Perhaps we should also add in their place. So no "ONLY" for ever or for all.

Yes. There is so much profound wisdom and truth in all the religions that we can learn from to make us better people. I have all the holy books and whatever I read is beautiful and truth whether it be the Gita or the Bible, the Quran or the Dhamapadda.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, at best you gave me 50% of what I asked for. You gave a list of contradictions, but haven't been able to come up with any list of any kind of the differences between Christian denominations.

It wouldn't take years to type out 20 things that differentiate Christian denominations. That's what I asked for. Not all the differences. ( Reading comprehension, and honesty are things you value, right? )

You've been on internet forums for over 20 years, and that experience has led to the conclusion that there are over 30,000 denominations. So 20 things should be a quick little typie-typie. It might take years for you to come up with those 20 things, since there isn't a list on a website that can simply be copied.

Hello dybmh. Just saying hi. You gave me some really good debates and asked great questions. I hope you are well and enjoying your time.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, at best you gave me 50% of what I asked for. You gave a list of contradictions, but haven't been able to come up with any list of any kind of the differences between Christian denominations.

It wouldn't take years to type out 20 things that differentiate Christian denominations. That's what I asked for. Not all the differences. ( Reading comprehension, and honesty are things you value, right? )

You've been on internet forums for over 20 years, and that experience has led to the conclusion that there are over 30,000 denominations. So 20 things should be a quick little typie-typie. It might take years for you to come up with those 20 things, since there isn't a list on a website that can simply be copied.

Talking about the differences between all the christian denominations would be a very thick book. It is not appropriate to ask for this in a forum post.

 

[dybmh]

Talking about the differences between all the christian denominations would be a very thick book. It is not appropriate to ask for this in a forum post.

I'm asking for 20 differences. That's all. Here's the original claim.

I've been on Internet forums for about 20 years, and I think the 30,000 Christian denomination number is low. Given since NONE of them can agree on much of anything about their mythology.

Note: He says, None of them can agree on much of anything about their mythology. That's a huge over-reach.

So, I asked for a list of 20 differences, things they disagree on. 20 things should be an easy list. Something like:

1. Unitarian / Trinitarian
2. Salvation by works / Salvation by grace
3. Eucharist / no-eucharist
4. Predestination / no-predestination
5. Solo-scriputa
6. Biblical literalism
7. Mosaic law / New covenant
8. etc...

That's basically all I can come up with.

If we look at Pew, they break it out into less than 20 groups, but non-denominational & other is a pretty large group under protestants.

Hartford Religious research did an interesting study, they broke it out into 99ish groups. Half of those were non-denom congregations. FACT did a study of the non-denoms, and broke them out into 5 major groups. So one the one hand there's 99, but if those no-denoms are taken out and replaced by their theological differences, the actual number is closer to 65.

Even if that number is off by a factor of 10, that is only 1000 denominiations. And that's much much different than over 30,000.

But big picture: do all of these different faith groups really, actually, disagree that much? I vote no.

In that same study by Hartford, they indicate that a large number ( 50% of the responders ) switch denominations. This shows that denominations don't have major theological differences that prohibit switching to a new group. Also, non-denomination churches are growing on a massive scale. The entire denominational divide is shrinking, and a large number of Christians seem to appreciate that.

So that's the trend. And that trend is: there aren't that many theological diffrerences.

As I'm researching all of this, it seems that the number 1 deciding factor for people when determining a congregation for their home is worship style. It has nothing to do theology differences. Or as @Ancient Soul put it, "they can't agree on anything about their mythology." That has nothing to do with it. They like the worship services, then they learn about the theology after. The pastors quoted in the Hartford study say their classes to teach about the congregational theology are completely packed with new members. This means, the members are joining without really needing to know about the differences. The differences aren't that large or aren't that important.

And, I'll just post this little quote from @Ancient Soul. This in my mind justifies pushing him to back up his claim with facts.

It's up to you to back up your claims with facts,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm asking for 20 differences. That's all. Here's the original claim.



Note: He says, None of them can agree on much of anything about their mythology. That's a huge over-reach.

So, I asked for a list of 20 differences, things they disagree on. 20 things should be an easy list. Something like:

1. Unitarian / Trinitarian
2. Faith by works / Faith by grace
3. Eucharist / no-eucharist
4. Predestination / no-predestination
5. Solo-scriputa
6. Biblical literalism
7. Mosaic law / New covenant
8. etc...

That's basically all I can come up with.

If we look at Pew, they break it out into less than 20 groups, but non-denominational & other is a pretty large group under protestants.

Hartford Religious research did an interesting study, they broke it out into 99ish groups. Half of those were non-denom congregations. FACT did a study of the non-denoms, and broke them out into 5 major groups. So one the one hand there's 99, but if those no-denoms are taken out and replaced by their theological differences, the actual number is closer to 65.

Even if that number is off by a factor of 10, that is only 1000 denominiations. And that's much much different than over 30,000.

But big picture: do all of these different faith groups really, actually, disagree that much? I vote no.

In that same study by Hartford, they indicate that a large number ( 50% of the responders ) switch denominations. This shows that denominations don't have major theological differences that prohibit switching to a new group. Also, non-denomination churches are growing on a massive scale. The entire denominational divide is shrinking, and a large number of Christians seem to appreciate that.

So that's the trend. And that trend is: there aren't that many theological diffrerences.

As I'm researching all of this, it seems that the number 1 deciding factor for people when determining a congregation for their home is worship style. It has nothing to do theology differences. Or as @Ancient Soul put it, "they can't agree on anything about their mythology." That has nothing to do with it. They like the worship services, then they learn about the theology after. The pastors quoted in the Hartford study say their classes to teach about the congregational theology are completely packed with new members. This means, the members are joining without really needing to know about the differences. The differences aren't that large or aren't that important.

And, I'll just post this little quote from @Ancient Soul. This in my mind justifies pushing him to back up his claim with facts.

1. Unitarian / Trinitarian
2. Faith by works / Faith by grace
3. Eucharist / no-eucharist
4. Predestination / no-predestination
5. Solo-scriputa
6. Biblical literalism
7. Mosaic law / New covenant
8. Eternal Security
9. Are the Jews still a covenant people
10. Is sanctification a second work of grace
11. Is Jesus Really Present in communion
12. Are there sacraments that confer grace
13. Is baptism necessary for salvation
14. Must baptism be by immersion only?
15. Infant baptism or not
16. Apostolic Succession or not
17. Is Mary a perpetual virgin or not
18. Is it okay to pray to saints or not
19. Are drinking, gambling, smoking, etc sins?
20. Should practicing homosexuals be ordained as ministers?
21. Should there be same sex marriages
22. Trans ideology or not
23. Total depravity or not
24. Did Jesus die for eveyrone or only for the elect
25. Is election unconditional
26. Can the holy spirit be resisted
27. Is Genesis 1 historical, or mythic? What about evolution?
28. Is revelation best understood by historicism, idealism, futurism, or preterism
29. Will there be a rapture.
30. I'd go on but I'm losing interest...

 

[YoursTrue]

What does any of that do with my comment that Jesus is not God, that he prayed just like all of us do? I mean, you hit the reply button, but then didn't reply to the content of my text.

Jesus prayed, that's true. He prayed to his father in heaven.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus prayed, that's true. He prayed to his father in heaven.

I think you mean "Our Father"..

 

[muhammad_isa]

So one the one hand there's 99, but if those no-denoms are taken out and replaced by their theological differences, the actual number is closer to 65.

Even if that number is off by a factor of 10, that is only 1000 denominiations. And that's much much different than over 30,000.

Mmm .. I think people are confused by statistics.
I imagine that the 30,000 refers to "churches" or church organisations.
..but what people fail to mention, is that many of these churches come under an "umbrella church" with the same tenets of belief.

I entirely agree with you that there are NOT 30,000 denominations, in the usual meaning of denomination.

 

[Eli G]

1. Unitarian / Trinitarian
2. Faith by works / Faith by grace
3. Eucharist / no-eucharist
4. Predestination / no-predestination
5. Solo-scriputa
6. Biblical literalism
7. Mosaic law / New covenant
8. Eternal Security
9. Are the Jews still a covenant people
10. Is sanctification a second work of grace
11. Is Jesus Really Present in communion
12. Are there sacraments that confer grace
13. Is baptism necessary for salvation
14. Must baptism be by immersion only?
15. Infant baptism or not
16. Apostolic Succession or not
17. Is Mary a perpetual virgin or not
18. Is it okay to pray to saints or not
19. Are drinking, gambling, smoking, etc sins?
20. Should practicing homosexuals be ordained as ministers?
21. Should there be same sex marriages
22. Trans ideology or not
23. Total depravity or not
24. Did Jesus die for eveyrone or only for the elect
25. Is election unconditional
26. Can the holy spirit be resisted
27. Is Genesis 1 historical, or mythic? What about evolution?
28. Is revelation best understood by historicism, idealism, futurism, or preterism
29. Will there be a rapture.
30. I'd go on but I'm losing interest...

That's quiet a relevant list. You are right, and it could be a lot longer than that.

Now tell me: Isn't it true that you can make a list as long as that about the contradictions between the different factions of Judaism that exist and have existed since the second temple until now?

What's more: isn't it true that you could make a list as long as that among the different anti-religious groups? ... or the issues on which the laureate scientists differ from each other?

Is there a community that is relevant to this world in some way and is not divided in some way? Satan's world is divided, and that includes all the religions that are part of his human system of government.

That is why they find so outstanding, and causes them so many mixed feelings, that Jehovah's Witnesses around the world, although we number more than 8 million, do not have major differences among us. And isn't it supposed that the people who let themselves be guided by God have no divisions?

 

[Eli G]

The responsibility for proving your claims is YOURS. It is not the responsibility of your interlocutor to do your research for you. If you don't want to be bothered, that's fine. But it means you need to back off.

Yeah, you are right ... and in this case I can not.

Anyway, now you can check about that the theory of the more than one writers of Genesis is a theory that is already known to have no true support.

This forum is not scientific, so... If you want to make it scientific, then start by telling atheists that Wikipedia is not a scientific site.