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Jesus resurrection - Historical Reality?

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Neither the actions of the gullible nor the later claims of an apologist are sufficient warrant to believe in miracles.

How can us today know they were just gullible. If such was the case when faced with torture and death, I think it's reasonable to think they would have 'reconsidered'. Sounds to me like the alleged 'direct experiencers' were about as sure as they could be.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Make it into another life form, sure. Nothing is wasted in nature, it just gets transformed into something new. So in that sense, yes.


Maya

but that isn't what I mean. If Jesus rose from the dead it was a miracle. And as such any decomposition of tissue would not be an issue.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The Christian faith is based on the historicity of Jesus resurrection. What evidence exists for accepting this? The Bible records that there were at least 500 eyewitnesses to Jesus post-resurrection appearances. (1 Corinthians 15:6)
The early Christians were so convinced of the reality of Christ's resurrection that they were willing to undergo persecution and even death rather than renounce their faith in Christ. Do you accept Christ's resurrection as historical fact, and if not, why not?

Historically it can not be known. I think that people had direct experiences with Jesus after his death because for one, the resurrection appears in the absolutely earliest known writings (not a later add-on); the willingness of the alleged 'direct experiencers' to choose a torturous death over recanting; and the rise and zeal of a small sect seems inexplicable without the strong resurrection belief.

The details we want to know, whether it was physical, mystical, supernatural, etc., we'll never know unfortunately. But fortunately, it shouldn't really matter.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
The details we want to know, whether it was physical, mystical, supernatural, etc., we'll never know unfortunately. But fortunately, it shouldn't really matter.

Indeed, it doesn't, as belief is a much stronger motivator than facts or knowledge for most people.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Once a body have been without oxygen for a certain amount of time, there is no way you can get it back to life. The body begins to decompose immediately after death, especially in warmer climates.Maya
If Christ hasn't risen then Christians are the most gullible people in the world. Their faith is based on a myth. But, if he has risen, the rest of us are in big trouble. His resurrection makes or breaks Christianity--Fundamental, literal believing Christianity. I wouldn't be surprised if some liberal forms of Christianity take it as a myth and completely symbolic. They probably get along fine following the "do good to others" type of teachings of Christ.

For me to believe in the literal resurrection means I have to take the whole Bible literal--all the miracles, all the prophecies, all the "historical" events as being absolutely true. Did a flood happen? Six-day Creation? Moses' walking stick turning into a snake? Decomposed, zombie "saints" coming out of their graves? And on and on--all of it has to be true. If not, why believe the gospel writers were honest about the resurrection?

So Jesus' brain cells didn't die? How about those other people that got raised and walked around Jerusalem? They could have been years, maybe centuries old. God re-animated them? 500 people saw Jesus, but how about the resurrected "saints"? Didn't any non-believers see them and Jesus? Did a rabbi see him and say, "Oh crap, he's back!" Too many amazing events and nobody outside of the gospels writers said anything? And what about the gospels? Did the gospels get the story straight? No, they are all different. Who went to the grave? What was Jesus' last words? They're all different. How can I trust the reports of his followers?

And then who is this mystery man? He walks through walls? That is not an ordinary body, something was different about it. So if he had a new glorified body then what happened to his old body? If Jesus is God, a spirit, why does he even need a body? Why did his new body have scars? Shouldn't the wounds have healed perfectly? Why did he need to eat? Oh yes, to show that it was him, he wasn't a ghost, he was real, and that there is a resurrection. A fantastic story, I wish I could believe it. But, I wonder how many people that call themselves Christian really believe it?
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
If Christ hasn't risen then Christians are the most gullible people in the world. Their faith is based on a myth. But, if he has risen, the rest of us are in big trouble. His resurrection makes or breaks Christianity--Fundamental, literal believing Christianity. I wouldn't be surprised if some liberal forms of Christianity take it as a myth and completely symbolic. They probably get along fine following the "do good to others" type of teachings of Christ.

For me to believe in the literal resurrection means I have to take the whole Bible literal--all the miracles, all the prophecies, all the "historical" events as being absolutely true. Did a flood happen? Six-day Creation? Moses' walking stick turning into a snake? Decomposed, zombie "saints" coming out of their graves? And on and on--all of it has to be true. If not, why believe the gospel writers were honest about the resurrection?

So Jesus' brain cells didn't die? How about those other people that got raised and walked around Jerusalem? They could have been years, maybe centuries old. God re-animated them? 500 people saw Jesus, but how about the resurrected "saints"? Didn't any non-believers see them and Jesus? Did a rabbi see him and say, "Oh crap, he's back!" Too many amazing events and nobody outside of the gospels writers said anything? And what about the gospels? Did the gospels get the story straight? No, they are all different. Who went to the grave? What was Jesus' last words? They're all different. How can I trust the reports of his followers?

And then who is this mystery man? He walks through walls? That is not an ordinary body, something was different about it. So if he had a new glorified body then what happened to his old body? If Jesus is God, a spirit, why does he even need a body? Why did his new body have scars? Shouldn't the wounds have healed perfectly? Why did he need to eat? Oh yes, to show that it was him, he wasn't a ghost, he was real, and that there is a resurrection. A fantastic story, I wish I could believe it. But, I wonder how many people that call themselves Christian really believe it?

I wonder that too. It seems like a lot of Christians aren't talking too much about this fact. Especially that people will come out of their graves on judgment day.

I know several really really nice and spiritual Christians and I assume (I should ask I guess) they believe in the resurrection as symbolism. And in the turn the other cheek advice that Jesus gave.

I don't think we would be in trouble if the resurrection is true. That is just something said by some to get people to agree.

Nazz,
but that isn't what I mean. If Jesus rose from the dead it was a miracle. And as such any decomposition of tissue would not be an issue.

Ok. Yes it certainly would be a miracle. But why would God do something that would work against nature. It would contradict his creation.

Maya
 
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nazz

Doubting Thomas
Nazz,


Ok. Yes it certainly would be a miracle. But why would God do something that would work against nature. It would contradict his creation.

Maya

I think it was necessary so that the disciples would continue believing in him.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Jesus wasn't the first one to be resurrected according to the Bible anyway. No big whoop de doo there--in Biblical terms. Lazarus was one (if you believe the stories), and a bunch of old (and very dead) geezers suddenly reappeared, walked the streets of Jerusalem and preached the Gospel when Jesus (supposedly) died. Sorry, but it sounds too much like children stories. Take it for an allegory and be happy. :)
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
I think it was necessary so that the disciples would continue believing in him.

If this was really Omniscient God then He/She would know that in the future science and knowledge would catch up and we would know that it couldn´t have worked.

If anything it pulls people away from Jesus´s teachings and from what I understand he had some really wise things to say.

Maya
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
If this was really Omniscient God then He/She would know that in the future science and knowledge would catch up and we would know that it couldn´t have worked.

If anything it pulls people away from Jesus´s teachings and from what I understand he had some really wise things to say.

Maya

I don't think either of those things follow

<shrug>
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
If this was really Omniscient God then He/She would know that in the future science and knowledge would catch up and we would know that it couldn´t have worked.

Well, that's because God wanted you to believe and have faith rather than physical and scientific evidence. But on the other hand, a lot of people are working hard to get rid of faith and believe and replace it with Intelligent Design science (which doesn't work). So the purpose is complete futility in every attempt. :)
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
The Christian faith is based on the historicity of Jesus resurrection. What evidence exists for accepting this? The Bible records that there were at least 500 eyewitnesses to Jesus post-resurrection appearances. (1 Corinthians 15:6)
The early Christians were so convinced of the reality of Christ's resurrection that they were willing to undergo persecution and even death rather than renounce their faith in Christ. Do you accept Christ's resurrection as historical fact, and if not, why not?

I agree that the Christian faith must be based on the historicity of Jesus. If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, the Christian faith is a delusion, period.

As for your arguments:

1.) Over 500 Eyewitnesses to the Risen Jesus. I don't know why Christians bring this up. I know that Christian apologists like William Lane Craig and Gary Habermas think that this is powerful evidence but it isn't. Think about it: over 500 anonymous eyewitnesses? Who were these people? What were their backgrounds and education? Did they all see the exact same thing? How does Paul know what they saw? Did Paul or the other disciples interview these people?

Christians expect me to explain this if I don't believe it's evidence for a risen Jesus. But what is there to explain, really? Christians may not like this but I operate on an axiom that is the basis of my approach to history and biblical studies:

Miraculous claims require miraculous forms of evidnece to validate them.

500 or more anonymous witnesses doesn't constitute miraculous evidence. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is a miracle claim. Do we have a signed affidavit from these witnesses describing in detail what they saw? Did all of them claim to see the same thing at the same time? Where did this sighting take place? Were all of them Jews? Were they already disciples of Jesus? Were any of them skeptical and then convinced after this event allegedly occurred?

If people open the Book of Mormon, they will see a testimony signed by eleven eyewitnesses who alleged that they had seen (and some claimed that they had handled) the plates that Joseph Smith Jr had translated from. These men signed their names on it. Yet no Evangelical Christian finds this impressive. In fact, Evangelicals are happy to refer to ex-Mormon websites that attempt a debunking of this signed testimony from the eleven men.

Now think about this. Eleven men who signed a statement. You have Christians appeal to over 500 anonymous people. We don't know a thing about them or what they supposedly saw, how they knew it was Jesus, etc. Am I really supposed to take this seriously? I wish the Evangelicals who are skeptical of the Mormon claims would apply their skepticism to the creed in 1st Corinthians 15.

2.) The Marytrdom Argument. This is one of the most popular arguments used by Christians to support their faith. It's complete sophistry, though. There are several flaws to this argument. Let me explain the biggest one:

The biggest flaw with this argument is that it's based on a false dichotomy. To say that the disciples of Jesus would never die for a lie, knowing it was a lie, creates a false dichotomy. The argument assumes that it's all history or one big hoax. But why is hoax the only alternative to the resurrection being historical? Another possibility, which the argument rules out of consideration without even attempting to refute it on historical grounds is delusion. What if the disciples were sincerely yet seriously deluded?

When Christians say "People will die for something they mistakenly think is true"-this option is delusion. People dying for something they mistakenly think is true is dying for a delusion. Yet this argument doesn't even refute delusion. It just rules it out from consideration. This is amusing considering that apologists will rule out delusion and whine about just how closed-minded skeptics are with their "antisupernatural bias".

Really rusra02, do you find this sophistry convincing?

Matthew
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Christian faith is based on the historicity of Jesus resurrection.

Actually, after his "supposed" death, some believed he was a God, and some believed he was just a teacher.

What evidence exists for accepting this?

There is no real evidence for the resurrection, or Jesus being God.

The Bible records that there were at least 500 eyewitnesses to Jesus post-resurrection appearances. (1 Corinthians 15:6)

If that were actually the case we would have a lot of eyewitness accounts of such a powerfull event - BUT we don't!

The early Christians were so convinced of the reality of Christ's resurrection that they were willing to undergo persecution and even death rather than renounce their faith in Christ.

That is not proof - many religions have such people.

Do you accept Christ's resurrection as historical fact, and if not, why not?

No. For the above mentioned reasons.
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
It has not been conclusively established as a forgery.
There has been uncovered some compelling evidence that it is not the image of Jesus Christ, but not that it is a conclusive forgery.


it was carbon dated several times, and its age proves conclusively that it is a forgery, it didn't come into existence until her a thousand years after jesus alleged lifetime, therefore it is a forgery
 

McBell

Unbound
it was carbon dated several times, and its age proves conclusively that it is a forgery, it didn't come into existence until her a thousand years after jesus alleged lifetime, therefore it is a forgery
You keep using the word "forgery" but the context in which you use the word strongly indicates you do not know what the word means.
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
You keep using the word "forgery" but the context in which you use the word strongly indicates you do not know what the word means.

it is claimed to be the shroud that jesus was wrapped in, but the carbon dating proves that it wasn't, so it is either a deliberate forgery or an honest mistake.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
it is claimed to be the shroud that jesus was wrapped in, but the carbon dating proves that it wasn't, so it is either a deliberate forgery or an honest mistake.

that carbon dating was done on a patch used to repair the shroud after the fire that nearly destroyed it.
 

McBell

Unbound
it is claimed to be the shroud that jesus was wrapped in, but the carbon dating proves that it wasn't, so it is either a deliberate forgery or an honest mistake.
What you present is nothing more than a false dichotomy.

Your original claim was: "conclusively established to be a forgery"

now, since it has not been proven the image is a forgery...

However, there is much compelling evidence that it is not the image of Jesus.
 

McBell

Unbound
that carbon dating was done on a patch used to repair the shroud after the fire that nearly destroyed it.

this sounds like nothing more than a sad attempt at dismissing the findings.
Why was there not another dating done?
Why is it that no one could tell that the sample taken was from a "patch" BEFORE the test was done?
 
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