Jesus' Sacrifice

[Kenny]

This doesn't frame up the circumstance appropriately. Didn't Jesus supposedly know he was bound for death? Now consider your "person on the battlefield" - does any soldier know for certain that he is going to die on the battlefield? No. In fact, if anything every single person on that battlefield (unless a suicide bomber or kamikaze of some form) wants desperately to be one of the ones left standing. However, to fulfill his destiny, I would think Christ would have had to even go so far as to desire death on some level, to consecrate the sacrifice. No?

Yes. But there are times when soldiers know that they will die on a mission but the mission, in context of the whole of the effort, is more important than there life.

Of course there is so much more to it and we are barely scratching the surface in context of Christian thought.

However, specifically in this OP, it is hard pressed to be called a suicide.

 

[seeking4truth]

Everyone who believes in God prays for what they want, need or hope for. Jesus as a believer did just that. He spent agonising hours in the Garden of Gethsemene praying. On the cross he appealed to God not to forsake him. All these are normal expressions of complete faith and belief that God hears prayers and responds. Nowhere does this imply he was willing to die even though he submitted to God's will as all believers do.

 

[Fool]

I think you have just messed up your premise of suicide since the definition is that one is taking ones own life away.

IF, as you say "jesus didn't wish to die", then you have just accentuated the reality that he didn't commit suicide but rather others took it away.

However, let's look at this carefully:

One can't just select scriptures that supports one's position but one must harmonize all scripture:

John 10:
17 This is why the Father loves me: because I freely lay down my life. And so I am free to take it up again.MSG

17 Therefore* doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take itagain. This commandment have I received of myFather.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (And he called us friends)

So let's look at his statement of the cup:

Matt 26
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying,O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Notice he didn't say "I'm not going to do it! But rather... if there is no other way, I will do it. And previously "I lay it down myself"

Harmonizing:

the death of the cross is hard enough... to pay for the sins of all is hell on earth. As a man, that in and of itself is a hard decision but he made it... why? because of his love for his friends.

If the issue is what happens when someone commits suicide, God looks at the heart. It isn't a cardinal sin IMV

laying down one's life isn't equated to sacrifice, or suicide. as stated, how do you offer to God what is God's in the first place?

the words lay down from the strong's G5087 do not mean sacrifice. in fact, one of the meanings is to serve as food, or drink, ie. nourishment.


love is nourishing. it isn't self-destructive.

here again we see the concept of "laying down" one's life as a service to other's as self, or the Law of One - Love.


John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Kemosloby]

Suicide isn't a sin, to my knowledge.

 

[Skwim]

I agree that Jesus committed suicide.

Considering the doctrine of the trinity wherein "God is three consubstantial persons—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons," I think it can be argued that god sent himself in the guise of the son Jesus to deliberately die. The Jesus person knew that what he was about to do would ultimately end in his death so that "...they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15. It was his mission. And to that end besides spreading his word he made certain that it would ultimately bring about his death; a form of assisted suicide. That Jesus compelled others to carry it out doesn't make it any less of a suicide.

So while others may regard his death as a sacrifice, it really wasn't. Aside from spreading his word, his greater mission was to die. Jesus wasn't meant to live any longer than he did. Everything went according to plan.

As for "why is suicide considered a sin?" some say that it is in violation of the fifth commandment: Thou shall not kill. Although, who knows how many people went to war with the blessing of various Christian churches in order to killed others. Others say it's a form of murder: self murder. And other Christian organizations simply take an unfavorable view of suicide without calling it a sin.

.

 

[seeking4truth]

If death was his mission why did he pray so fervently to aoid it? Why was it a shock to his followers?

 

[Skwim]

If death was his mission why did he pray so fervently to aoid it?

What's your evidence?

Why was it a shock to his followers?

They weren't privy to the plan.

.

 

[Fool]

I agree that Jesus committed suicide.

Considering the doctrine of the trinity wherein "God is three consubstantial persons—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons," I think it can be argued that god sent himself in the guise of the son Jesus to deliberately die. The Jesus person knew that what he was about to do would ultimately end in his death so that "...they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15. It was his mission. And to that end besides spreading his word he made certain that it would ultimately bring about his death; a form of assisted suicide. That Jesus compelled others to carry it out doesn't make it any less of a suicide.

So while others may regard his death as a sacrifice, it really wasn't. Aside from spreading his word, his greater mission was to die. Jesus wasn't meant to live any longer than he did. Everything went according to plan.

As for "why is suicide considered a sin?" some say that it is in violation of the fifth commandment: Thou shall not kill. Although, who knows how many people went to war with the blessing of various Christian churches in order to killed others. Others say it's a form of murder: self murder. And other Christian organizations simply take an unfavorable view of suicide without calling it a sin.

.

a trinity doesn't require a anthropomorphic modifier. and god is not exclusive to a person. all created things are destined to become uncreated, or return to their origin of state.

a begetter, a begotten, and actuator do not have to be a person per se.

 

[Skwim]

a trinity doesn't require a anthropomorphic modifier. and god is not exclusive to a person. all created things are destined to become uncreated, or return to their origin of state.

a begetter, a begotten, and actuator do not have to be a person per se.

Consider god and the trinity however you wish. For purposes of argument here I'm sticking with the common Christian view.

.

 

[seeking4truth]

What's your evidence?



They weren't privy to the plan.

.

The Gospel's description of their behaviour in Jerusalem at the time of the arrest, Crucifiction and after.
If the death and sacrifice of Jesus life was the whole point of his existance I would have expected him to explain this teaching to his followers who would be expected to pass on this information. If he had taught this and then it happened all Jews would have accepted him as Messiah and avoided all their suffereing since.

 

[Skwim]

The Gospel's description of their behaviour in Jerusalem at the time of the arrest, Crucifiction and after.

I assume the "their" you're talking about are his followers, which prompts me to ask how their behavior informs you that "he pray[ed] so fervently to avoid it."

If the death and sacrifice of Jesus life was the whole point of his existance I would have expected him to explain this teaching to his followers who would be expected to pass on this information.

Second guessing Christ are you. Fine, but it certainly doesn't diminish my argument that he committed suicide.

If he had taught this and then it happened all Jews would have accepted him as Messiah and avoided all their suffereing since.

Taught what to the Jews? That he was there to die for their sins and that by teaching this, it would irritate them so much that they would have the Romans nail him up? For this they would accept him as the Messiah? I doooon't think so. Telling people you're going to rob them and that you'll be arrested for it isn't going to convince them of much else other than you're a bit balmy and got exactly what you deserved.
.

 

[Fool]

Consider god and the trinity however you wish. For purposes of argument here I'm sticking with the common Christian view.

.

not all christian's accept the trinity and the

Numbers 23:19 in the OT states that God is not a human, or a person, that he should repent; nor the son of man, or person, that he should lie. this alone would dispel the idea of a man as the sole son of God if this god is the begetter of all. Colossians 3:11 states that Christ is All and in ALL. Christ then is the Lamb of God. Jesus was one representative of an Infinite number of forms that are Christ.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

When I was a kid my grandmother's friend who we called Old Man Chuck, committed suicide by old age at 98.

 

[Kenny]

laying down one's life isn't equated to sacrifice, or suicide. as stated, how do you offer to God what is God's in the first place?

the words lay down from the strong's G5087 do not mean sacrifice. in fact, one of the meanings is to serve as food, or drink, ie. nourishment.


love is nourishing. it isn't self-destructive.

here again we see the concept of "laying down" one's life as a service to other's as self, or the Law of One - Love.


John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

I'm not sure that is applicable. Taking the sins of someone else is an act of love but it includes a sacrifice. He was tortured, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped with a whip of cat-tails and died as he took on the sins of mankind and its consequences which included a time in hell (in the Christian understanding) (Is 53 et al)

But it you want it to be a suicide, no sweat on my side.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I'm not sure that is applicable. Taking the sins of someone else is an act of love but it includes a sacrifice. He was tortured, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped with a whip of cat-tails and died as he took on the sins of mankind and its consequences which included a time in hell (in the Christian understanding) (Is 53 et al)

But it you want it to be a suicide, no sweat on my side.

"He was tortured, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped with a whip of cat-tails and died "

If you think that is bad, you should have seen what they did to Black Jesus.

 

[Murad]

If Jesus' gave up his life via suicide by roman soldier; then why is suicide considered a sin?

First question should be, why I should be punished for a sin of other person? even if he is my father!

 

[Jeremiahcp]

If Jesus' gave up his life via suicide by roman soldier; then why is suicide considered a sin?

Let's say Jesus did commit suicide, I don't see how, and think that is a silly perceptive, but let's just say he did. I have one question: So what?

If you consider Jesus God then there is nothing in the Bible that says God must follow the Bible

If you don't consider Jesus God then well then the whole thing is moot.

 

[Fool]

First question should be, why I should be punished for a sin of other person? even if he is my father!

Yes, why would an all loving god or father supposedly send his child to be tormented and murdered?

 

[Fool]

Let's say Jesus did commit suicide, I don't see how, and think that is a silly perceptive, but let's just say he did. I have one question: So what?

If you consider Jesus God then there is nothing in the Bible that says God must follow the Bible

If you don't consider Jesus God then well then the whole thing is moot.

it would go against the commandment to kill there cannot be an exception for self. it breaks the law of love. to love self and other as self. the kingdom of god comes from within and this is why thou shall love the lord thy god that is within us and us within it, and our neighbor.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

it would go against the commandment to kill there cannot be an exception for self. it breaks the law of love. to love self and other as self. the kingdom of god comes from within and this is why thou shall love the lord thy god that is within us and us within it, and our neighbor.

How does any of that address my post?