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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
go back then to the question as to why it said Jesus said "I am..."
AND -- what do you think "I am" means in context? (Before Abraham...) Was Jesus in heaven when Abraham was born? Or before Abraham was born? IF he was, let's go over that a bit, if possible.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
so then taking the scriptures as a whole, integrally, so someone is the God of the rock.
The Jews were trying to suggest that Jesus was committing blasphemy, so that they would have an excuse to do away with him. So does it really matter what THEY said? They lied about Jesus all along. They were seeking a way to silence him as they had done to all the other prophets that God had sent to them. (Matthew 23:37)
John 10 was exactly the same scenario, but what did Jesus call himself? Not God. He said he was “the Son of God”. If you are the son of your father...can you be your father? That is not blasphemy.
God was "with" his people Israel....Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples until the end of the age. God can be "with" his servants by supporting them in their various roles and activities....as can Jesus.
There are many “sons of God” mentioned in the Bible, but Jesus is not just “a” son of God....Jesus is “THE” Son of God...”only begotten” means that he is unique in that he was the first and only direct creation of God....”the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14)
I cannot for the life of me understand why Jesus had to be God in order to fulfill his commission. All he had to be was the equivalent of Adam in human form to pay the ransom by offering his sinless life for ours. If Jesus was God, then the ransom was overpaid by a ridiculous margin. Like requiring a billion cans of bug spray to take out one mosquito. Jesus had to die, but if he was God, how is that possible? Can mere humans kill an immortal God? Jesus was dead in the tomb for three days and nights and was then resurrected by his Father. He did not resurrect himself.
Acts 2:29-32...
“Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses."
Yes...it was “the Word” who was “made flesh”....the one who was “with God” “in the beginning”. In John 1:1, Jesus is divine but he is not the Almighty. God was not beside himself....and the third person is invariably missing.
Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)
Yes he was a glorious spirit being before coming to this earth as a human....but aren't you now putting words in Jesus’ mouth?
By his own admission, Jesus was “with God” “in the beginning” and Revelation 3:14 confirms what that "beginning" was.....his creation as God’s “only begotten Son”. One who is ‘begotten’ needs a ‘begetter’ who existed before him and who caused his existence. This is why Jesus is “THE” Son of God....unlike all the rest. He is “the firstborn of all creation”. (Colossians 1:13-17) "Creation" is not just the material world but includes the spiritual realm as well. In Job 38 the angels are said to applaud the preparation of the earth for habitation.
This Son reflects his Father’s glory. He is the "image" of his Father, but an image is a reflection, not the real thing.
You can’t take inference and make it into a doctrine either. Without a direct statement from either God or his son, you are interpreting a relationship that the Bible says, never existed....one that is nowhere directly supported in scripture, was unknown in the Jewish religion, and more importantly creates a blasphemy by putting another “god” in the Father’s place. (Exodus 20:3) This has serious consequences, so our choices in this matter are important. There is a reason why "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Of course he is not just an angel. He is a unique being who has a very specific role as “the Prince of Peace”. A Prince is the son of a King. You never call the reigning King a 'Prince', do you? A Prince can represent his father and can speak for his father, but he will never BE his father, even when he eventually takes the crown.
Indeed. But Philippians 2 is often used to prove the trinity by inferring that Jesus was in “God’s form”. He was, but not in the way they infer. The rest of the passage does not support the trinity in any way.
Ummm...what does it say??? “exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.”....your bolded portion says “the God of the rock” which means that your rock has a God. I wonder who that could be? (John 20:17)
firedragon
Veteran Member
John 18:4-8
Jesus said to them: Who are you looking for? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I Am He. Now when he said to them, I Am He, they drew back and fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, Who are you looking for? But they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered: I told you that I Am He.
Isaiah 43:11-13
I, I am Yahweh, and beside me there is no savior. I have proclaimed and saved, and there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and I am God. Yes, always I Am He; and there is none that saves out of my hand. Who can stop me?
What you are actually saying is that whoever who wrote this Gospel of John, this person who never met Jesus, and is not considered a synoptic gospel writer, someone who wrote this probably in the 2nd century, told you that Jesus said "I am he".
The other problem is that even a man who was speaking Eli in 1 Samuel also said "I am he". Is he also God?
John 18:4-8
Jesus said to them: Who are you looking for? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I Am He. Now when he said to them, I Am He, they drew back and fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, Who are you looking for? But they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered: I told you that I Am He.
Isaiah 43:11-13
I, I am Yahweh, and beside me there is no savior. I have proclaimed and saved, and there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and I am God. Yes, always I Am He; and there is none that saves out of my hand. Who can stop me?
As I think I've pointed out before, all five versions of Jesus in the NT deny they're God and never claim to be God. John's Jesus, for instance, says ─
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”
John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”
John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
As I think I've also pointed out to you, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century CE, so if there was an historical Jesus then he, like the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, had never heard of it.
I AM... is God. Jesus didn't say "Before Abraham I was but rather "I AM" - so it wasn't as much as Jesus was in Heaven but rather The Word was with God and the Word was God.
Abraham saw the day of redemption as he offered up his only son Isaac
See my #26 above.
I wouldn't agree as the manifested Word - He had left His glory as God in Heaven and thus, as a man, could not do anything on His own. Thus the Father was "greater than I" as a man without His glory. Basically all of the above is in that context.
Thomas understood it all when he said, John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Had Jesus not been God, He would have corrected his statement
On the contrary, had Jesus BEEN God, it would have made the entirety of his ministry one enormous deceit and all the denials (of which I only quoted some of John's there) lies.
For example, consider Paul ─
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Philippians 2: 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2: 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
What are humans discussing?
Science concepts. Human thesis about beginning claims.
O God one in science is stone. A seal.
Heavens came from gods ejection.
Gases from extended mountain erection. Gases.
God was sealed a planet. O.
Science said creation ended as God.
Basic. The planet form O. Nothing really existed beyond O God. Logic.
Heavens came from gods hell originally.
A truth...a beginning.
We don't live in any beginning. What science lies about today
Medical genetics science. Genesis we say is holy states where we own life after a stable beast life of animals.
No argument
Medical science then explained exodus of genetics.
Bible reasoning about not living in presence as any beginning.
God status said humans lived after the nature garden.
Basic advice. No science argument yet science does argue.
Mass all bodies pre existed in form before any other form existed.
Humans are all one separated self not mass.
No argument.
Science argued against itself also ignored.
Science concepts. Human thesis about beginning claims.
O God one in science is stone. A seal.
Heavens came from gods ejection.
Gases from extended mountain erection. Gases.
God was sealed a planet. O.
Science said creation ended as God.
Basic. The planet form O. Nothing really existed beyond O God. Logic.
Heavens came from gods hell originally.
A truth...a beginning.
We don't live in any beginning. What science lies about today
Medical genetics science. Genesis we say is holy states where we own life after a stable beast life of animals.
No argument
Medical science then explained exodus of genetics.
Bible reasoning about not living in presence as any beginning.
God status said humans lived after the nature garden.
Basic advice. No science argument yet science does argue.
Mass all bodies pre existed in form before any other form existed.
Humans are all one separated self not mass.
No argument.
Science argued against itself also ignored.
Because there is No Upper-Case letter "A" nor "H" in those ^ above ^ verses then it reads, " I am he...." (KJV)
I find in the Hebrew Exodus 3:14 reads: " I Shall Be as I Shall Be."
Accepting Moses' argument, God was instructing Moses to say, " I shall Be (with them in this sorrow) has sent me to you." (verse 7)
I see No capital I AM at Exodus 3:6 KJV but saying, I am the God of thy father....
I see No capital I AM at Exodus 3:8
I see No capital I AM at Exodus 6:2 " I am the LORD " ( Tetragrammaton )
(Please note: KJV uses All Upper-Case letters in the title word 'LORD' where the Tetragrammaton appears).
I do see God's name at Exodus 6:3 just as it is also previously mentioned at Genesis 22:14.
Pharaoh knew God's name but he did Not know YHWH as a God of action.
In other words, Pharaoh did Not acknowledge YHWH as a force to be reckoned with.
Pharaoh did Not know YHWH in the same way Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did - Genesis 3:15
First, I find it was God who sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
In other words, Jesus did Not send himself.
I find there was No reason for Jesus to correct doubting Thomas because if one reads the earlier verse at " John 20:17 " Jesus makes it clear that he has Not yet ascended to his Father and to his God....
So, when John writes at Revelation 3:12 that Jesus still has a God over him then John is Not wrong.
This isn't the trial where they were trying to suggest that he committed blasphemy, they wanted to stone him and/or push him over the cliff because the understood exactly what he was saying. It is in black and white or red when Jesus spoke.
That is an interpretation issue. The Creation of God can be The Church and, as the firstborn from the dead is the first of God's Creation - the Church
The reason that Jesus had to be God is because it was God first in authority, then man and then the angels. An angel could not take on the sin of mankind and remain solvent. Only God can do that.
One angel sinned once and the angel could not redeem even himself let alone the sins of the world
Please remember there are actually three stages for Jesus:
1) The Word (eternal)
2) Jesus - the man
3) Jesus the resurrected Lord and Savior. (God titles)
So you can't compare Jesus as the man and make him equal to The Word or the Lord and Savior.
Also Rev. 1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
All are God names and titles
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
He is also the Almighty
Again... you can't mix pre, present and post and think that any one of those are the same - though the same person.
Even Thomas understood! John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
I have stated multiple places that it is said and declared. It is also in the TaNaKh. It isn't another God... it is just one God.
The Godhead, or Trinity - A Study in the Scriptures by Diane Dew
No... Hebrews specifically says it was not an angel
Great scholars believe it does.
???? Maybe this one will suit your better
Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
God is the rock of our salvation. Jesus is the rock of our salvation.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Jesus. Image man in clouds.
Transmitted images recorded human experience. The teaching.. Advice. Warnings that came to us about why the life of humans were sacrificed. And why his spiritual science father of his DNA holy land harmed him.
As spiritual human baby son to man adult reasonings.
By his spiritual human man bodily physical loss DNA advice.
Remembering the baby adult father was the scientist. Firstborn babies human genetics removed. Moses event. Babies died first historic. Then adults.
Ape human life. The mutated baboon kra ark inheritance. The beast teaching irradiated DNA skin blood bones removed by a fast aging cell irradiation extra state.
Why it is not understood. It was a time shifting fast aging attack.
His warnings imaged alongside Moses father warnings already heavenly recorded. Father and son same causes.
Side by side with his first father. Side rib being notification same type of attack to physical body.
The heavens ours was taught that the spirit body had come from O God earth planet hell. Not God stone non burning body. So spirit was not God one.
Teaching O mass God one completed and whole form O.
The heavens already indide God O mass as body sacrificed as gods sin volcano ejection.
It was taught. Humans misinterpret the science teachings. A human never came out of a volcano as spirit gas. The gas spirit was already sacrificed released from earth.
Cooled. Lost light. Sun cooling burst reignited gases.
O mass earth complete one. End of created form planet body.
No arguments about heavens. Space cooled those gases and heavens not really anything to do with God one. Earth complete held form O whole and one.
Rationally.
Basic simple easy to interpret meaning is not sought by an egotist as a truth. Ego..I will understand causes to ignore any God teaching.
Beginning heavens was inside O mass earth body. Nothing to do with cosmos or sun.
Why God earth was given O creator entity statement.
Transmitted images recorded human experience. The teaching.. Advice. Warnings that came to us about why the life of humans were sacrificed. And why his spiritual science father of his DNA holy land harmed him.
As spiritual human baby son to man adult reasonings.
By his spiritual human man bodily physical loss DNA advice.
Remembering the baby adult father was the scientist. Firstborn babies human genetics removed. Moses event. Babies died first historic. Then adults.
Ape human life. The mutated baboon kra ark inheritance. The beast teaching irradiated DNA skin blood bones removed by a fast aging cell irradiation extra state.
Why it is not understood. It was a time shifting fast aging attack.
His warnings imaged alongside Moses father warnings already heavenly recorded. Father and son same causes.
Side by side with his first father. Side rib being notification same type of attack to physical body.
The heavens ours was taught that the spirit body had come from O God earth planet hell. Not God stone non burning body. So spirit was not God one.
Teaching O mass God one completed and whole form O.
The heavens already indide God O mass as body sacrificed as gods sin volcano ejection.
It was taught. Humans misinterpret the science teachings. A human never came out of a volcano as spirit gas. The gas spirit was already sacrificed released from earth.
Cooled. Lost light. Sun cooling burst reignited gases.
O mass earth complete one. End of created form planet body.
No arguments about heavens. Space cooled those gases and heavens not really anything to do with God one. Earth complete held form O whole and one.
Rationally.
Basic simple easy to interpret meaning is not sought by an egotist as a truth. Ego..I will understand causes to ignore any God teaching.
Beginning heavens was inside O mass earth body. Nothing to do with cosmos or sun.
Why God earth was given O creator entity statement.
Not really, IMV. You are speaking of the manifested Word who became man. As man, God has assumed not only the God of Heaven as the Father, but also exercising the legal authority as Man fulfilling Gen 1:26.
So, if you were to take the statement of Philippians 2:11 and find it origin you find in at Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
the very statement of Isaiah is speaking of God Himself. It is fulfilled in that Jesus is both Man and God.
As far as "I shall be"... I don't find that interpretation/
As far as capital I AM - there were no capital letters in the original documents - so any application is man adjusting to try to make it more understandable. None the less, it is still God.
Yes on God an Pharaoh!! Well said!!
YHWH judged every God that Pharaoh esteemed.
John 18:4-8
Jesus said to them: Who are you looking for? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I Am He. Now when he said to them, I Am He, they drew back and fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, Who are you looking for? But they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered: I told you that I Am He.
Isaiah 43:11-13
I, I am Yahweh, and beside me there is no savior. I have proclaimed and saved, and there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and I am God. Yes, always I Am He; and there is none that saves out of my hand. Who can stop me?
Cool so next time anyone says they are looking for "Earthank" and i say "I am he" that means I am God. Awesome. A lot easier than the other stuff I have in mind