Jesus' Second Coming

[stvdv]

Good. Better give that up before you get that way

No need to worry about that. I have the indian scriptures full of wisdom, and even more important "my eye is open"

 

[shmogie]

The woman's "male child" is a reference to Jesus (Revelation 12:5), from Wikipedia. This is a very widespread interpretation. But you deny it.

Yet you do not have a direct telephone line to Jesus Christ. You have to interpret Revelation like everyone else. There are schools of interpretation. To cut a long story short, why not tell us what school of interpretation you support with an internet reference where I can examine it further?



That is clearly not true. Revelation is full of symbolism, much of it taken from and found in the Old Testament. Such as the "mark of the beast" refers to the mark of cain.


Well unlike you I do not spend my life pontificating over Revelation. I broadly accept the historist school, such as Rev 9 refering to Islam etc, and much of what precedes that referring to events in the Roman Empire. It is a while since I last looked at Revelation, so that is why I appear unsure.


You're not a humble person then. So many have tried to interpret Revelation and so many have not quite suceeded. Why are you unique in that respect ?


The problem with those who say that tribulation is future, is that they ignore all the tribulation in the last 2000 years. I am quite certain that if you were in a concentration camp right now, you would change your opinion as to tribulation being in the future.



It's a traditional way of describing the whole world, based on Mesopotamian cosmology, i.e. four rivers flowing out of the garden of Eden.


Yes but you haven't explained why the apostles say that Christ has already triumped over satan. Colossians 2:15. So how can he be in heaven?


Well Matt 24 is quite an apt description of the fall of the 2nd temple.


I accept that men are not always right, but these matters have been studied for a long time and a consensus has been reached on them. I do respect authorities, although I may disagree with them. You don't seem to respect anyone but yourself.

Revelation is difficult book, no doubt. Scholars and theologians have debated the possible interpretations for hundreds of years.

Before becoming a Christian, it seemed to me that magic mushrooms were growing on Patmos and John found them.

Revelation has little to do with salvation if it is found in the Other books.
]
The book is important because of its warnings of what takes place before the end.,

It is valuable to openly discuss it and weigh the arguments.

It is unwise to reflect rancor in these conversations. As one fighting that impulse, I know

 

[Furchizedek]

Good. Better give that up before you get that way.

I am curious, who is "we" ?

Yes, sure. I would say that "we" that I mentioned is the majority of serious Urantia Book readers and believers, those who know the history about the book. And if you want to read what is probably a pretty good job on the history, you can find it here: A History of The Urantia Papers

Larry Mullins, the author of "A History of The Urantia Papers" also did an update to the one above in 2010. It's essentially the same but with some later material added.

Oh, an edit. All my life I've wanted to use this word and then when I got the chance, I blew it.

The "we" that I mentioned is the cognoscenti. LOL.
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Qualifier: Everything I say above or below is my opinion and/or my beliefs some of which I may have derived from The Urantia Book or other sources. Or not.

 

[paarsurrey]

Seeing you can't put it together.
While Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was of flesh and blood and bones.

So it means that when one talked of Jesus having blood and flesh one took it symbolically for Jesus being a human nothing more nothing less, one did not take it literally. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Faithofchristian]

So it means that when one talked of Jesus having blood and flesh one took it symbolically for Jesus being a human nothing more nothing less, one did not take it literally. Right, please?

Regards

While Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was of flesh and blood and bones.

But after the Resurrection of Jesus, Jesus told his disciples to feel him and see that he has flesh and bones.that a spirit does not have.
So I'm curious, did Jesus have blood, seeing Jesus never made mentioning about having blood.
I haven't found anything that indicates or even Jesus made any mentioning after his resurrection, of having blood.

I have found before Jesus resurrection,
Jesus had all 3 flesh, blood, bones.

But after Jesus resurrection, Jesus only made mention of having ( flesh ) ( bones)
But said nothing of having ( blood )
Luke 24:39

Here's a eye catcher for you.
In the book of Mark 16:12--"After that
he ( Jesus ) appeared in another( form) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country"

Notice that Jesus appeared in another
( Form ) maybe this is why the disciples didn't recognize Jesus, all because Jesus appeared in another ( form ) to what they were use to seeing Jesus as. But now after the resurrection of Jesus, Jesus didn't have the same form that the disciples were use to seeing Jesus as.
But now Jesus appeared in another ( form)
Than what the disciples were use to.

 

[paarsurrey]

While Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was of flesh and blood and bones.

But after the Resurrection of Jesus, Jesus told his disciples to feel him and see that he has flesh and bones.that a spirit does not have.
So I'm curious, did Jesus have blood, seeing Jesus never made mentioning about having blood.
I haven't found anything that indicates or even Jesus made any mentioning after his resurrection, of having blood.

I have found before Jesus resurrection,
Jesus had all 3 flesh, blood, bones.

But after Jesus resurrection, Jesus only made mention of having ( flesh ) ( bones)
But said nothing of having ( blood )
Luke 24:39

Here's a eye catcher for you.
In the book of Mark 16:12--"After that
he ( Jesus ) appeared in another( form) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country"

Notice that Jesus appeared in another
( Form ) maybe this is why the disciples didn't recognize Jesus, all because Jesus appeared in another ( form ) to what they were use to seeing Jesus as. But now after the resurrection of Jesus, Jesus didn't have the same form that the disciples were use to seeing Jesus as.
But now Jesus appeared in another ( form)
Than what the disciples were use to.

It only shows that Christians have a wrong perception/understanding of Jesus' resurrection after the event of Cross. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was only seriously wounded and after treatment in the tomb he was able to walk. Jesus showed his wounds to the disciples so that they know that G-d has heard his prayers in the Garden and saved his life. This is what I believe and understand, others could believe differently with sound reasons and arguments, if any. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Faithofchristian]

It only shows that Christians have a wrong perception/understanding of Jesus' resurrection after the event of Cross. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was only seriously wounded and after treatment in the tomb he was able to walk. Jesus showed his wounds to the disciples so that they know that G-d has heard his prayers in the Garden and saved his life. This is what I believe and understand, others could believe differently with sound reasons and arguments, if any. Right, please?

Regards

It seems like you come up with things, but have no proof to support them.
Your just to funny.

 

[Fool]

Maybe not to you, but for me it's all proof.

obviously some are having an experience that others don't seem to be having. fantasy and believing are not proof. proof is being ability to repeat the experience by another.

jesus says you can do all these things and more; if you believe. most christians say you can't because jesus was unique and the only son of god.

jesus didn't say that.

 

[Furchizedek]

While Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was of flesh and blood and bones.

But after the Resurrection of Jesus, Jesus told his disciples to feel him and see that he has flesh and bones.that a spirit does not have.

There's a fly in that ointment, though, and that's 10 verses earlier Jesus said:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

I suggest that if John 20:17 is correct, then John 20:27 is incorrect. (IMO)

 

[Faithofchristian]

There's a fly in that ointment, though, and that's 10 verses earlier Jesus said:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

I suggest that if John 20:17 is correct, then John 20:27 is incorrect. (IMO)

Had you any knowledge what is and what is not.
At the time when the disciples went to the tomb, And Jesus told Mary not to touch him, because Jesus hadn't ascended to his Father.
Now at the time Jesus appeared to the disciple and was eating with them, by this time Jesus had already ascended to his Father and came back to his disciples.

The same with John 20:17 and John 20:27,

In John 20:17, Jesus was just resurrected from the tomb, telling Mary not touch him, for Jesus had not ascended to his Father Yet.

Now John 20:27, at this time, Jesus had already ascended to his Father and came back to his disciples, at this time the disciples can touch Jesus.

It seems like your having a hard time
Adding 2+2= 4

Jesus saying not to touch him, for he had not ascended to the Father.

Now Jesus tells his disciples to touch him.
This means that Jesus had already ascended to his Father and came to the disciples.

 

[Furchizedek]

Just because you believe the bible version of events is true, does not make it true.

God may ask you to believe things you don't understand, but He will never ask you to believe things that don't make sense. (IMO)

From The Urantia Book:

189:4.12 As Mary sought to embrace his feet, Jesus said: “Touch me not, Mary, for I am not as you knew me in the flesh. In this form will I tarry with you for a season before I ascend to the Father. But go, all of you, now and tell my apostles—and Peter—that I have risen, and that you have talked with me.”

189:4.13 After these women had recovered from the shock of their amazement, they hastened back to the city and to the home of Elijah Mark, where they related to the ten apostles all that had happened to them; but the apostles were not inclined to believe them. They thought at first that the women had seen a vision, but when Mary Magdalene repeated the words which Jesus had spoken to them, and when Peter heard his name, he rushed out of the upper chamber, followed closely by John, in great haste to reach the tomb and see these things for himself.

189:4.14 The women repeated the story of talking with Jesus to the other apostles, but they would not believe; and they would not go to find out for themselves as had Peter and John.
...[time passes]

189:5.3 Peter at first suggested that the grave had been rifled, that enemies had stolen the body, perhaps bribed the guards. But John reasoned that the grave would hardly have been left so orderly if the body had been stolen, and he also raised the question as to how the bandages happened to be left behind, and so apparently intact. And again they both went back into the tomb more closely to examine the grave cloths. As they came out of the tomb the second time, they found Mary Magdalene returned and weeping before the entrance. Mary had gone to the apostles believing that Jesus had risen from the grave, but when they all refused to believe her report, she became downcast and despairing. She longed to go back near the tomb, where she thought she had heard the familiar voice of Jesus.
189:5.4 As Mary lingered after Peter and John had gone, the Master again appeared to her, saying: “Be not doubting; have the courage to believe what you have seen and heard. Go back to my apostles and again tell them that I have risen, that I will appear to them, and that presently I will go before them into Galilee as I promised.”
189:5.5 Mary hurried back to the Mark home and told the apostles she had again talked with Jesus, but they would not believe her. But when Peter and John returned, they ceased to ridicule and became filled with fear and apprehension.

[Meanwhile (later) back at the ranch]:
5. SECOND APPEARANCE TO THE APOSTLES (in Paper 191)
191:5.4 When the Master had so spoken, he looked down into the face of Thomas and said: “And you, Thomas, who said you would not believe unless you could see me and put your finger in the nail marks of my hands, have now beheld me and heard my words; and though you see no nail marks on my hands, since I am raised in the form that you also shall have when you depart from this world, what will you say to your brethren? You will acknowledge the truth, for already in your heart you had begun to believe even when you so stoutly asserted your unbelief. Your doubts, Thomas, always most stubbornly assert themselves just as they are about to crumble. Thomas, I bid you be not faithless but believing—and I know you will believe, even with a whole heart.”

191:5.5 When Thomas heard these words, he fell on his knees before the morontia Master and exclaimed, “I believe! My Lord and my Master!” Then said Jesus to Thomas: “You have believed, Thomas, because you have really seen and heard me. Blessed are those in the ages to come who will believe even though they have not seen with the eye of flesh nor heard with the mortal ear.”

191:5.6 And then, as the Master’s form moved over near the head of the table, he addressed them all, saying: “And now go all of you to Galilee, where I will presently appear to you.” After he said this, he vanished from their sight.

PAPER 189 The Resurrection
0. The Resurrection
1. The Morontia Transit
2. The Material Body of Jesus
3. The Dispensational Resurrection
4. Discovery of the Empty Tomb
5. Peter and John at the Tomb

PAPER 190 Morontia Appearances of Jesus
0. Morontia Appearances of Jesus
1. Heralds of the Resurrection
2. Jesus' Appearance at Bethany
3. At the Home of Joseph
4. Appearance to the Greeks
5. The Walk with Two Brothers

PAPER 191 Appearances to the Apostles and Other Leaders
0. Appearances to the Apostles and Other Leaders
1. The Appearance to Peter
2. First Appearance to the Apostles
3. With the Morontia Creatures
4. The Tenth Appearance (At Philadelphia)
5. Second Appearance to the Apostles
6. The Alexandrian Appearance

PAPER 192 Appearances in Galilee
0. Appearances in Galilee
1. Appearance by the Lake
2. Visiting with the Apostles Two and Two
3. On the Mount of Ordination
4. The Lakeside Gathering

PAPER 193 Final Appearances and Ascension
0. Final Appearances and Ascension
1. The Appearance at Sychar
2. The Phoenician Appearance
3. Last Appearance in Jerusalem
4. Causes of Judas's Downfall
5. The Master's Ascension
6. Peter Calls A Meeting

PAPER 194 Bestowal of the Spirit of Truth
0. Bestowal of the Spirit of Truth
1. The Pentecost Sermon
2. The Significance of Pentecost
3. What Happened at Pentecost
4. Beginnings of the Christian Church

 

[Furchizedek]

And I would just like to say that I fail to understand what difference it makes to anyone if Jesus had or had not ascended at such and such a time, if Mary was or was not a virgin, and so on. Why argue about any of it? None of that has anything to do with anyone's salvation. Regardless of who you think did or didn't die for you, YOU MUST DO THE FATHER'S WILL to be saved, (Matthew 7:21) according to the bible.

...Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Luke 10:25)
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27)

"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:50)

 

[Faithofchristian]

The resurrection is all about the redemption of our mortal bodies into a glorified, eternal state and victory over death...which Christ accomplished first and for us...

... in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Cor. 15:52-54

My question is, ( Death is swallowed up in victory) Who is death, What is the name of Death, what is his name ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Just because you believe the bible version of events is true, does not make it true.

God may ask you to believe things you don't understand, but He will never ask you to believe things that don't make sense. (IMO)

From The Urantia Book:

189:4.12 As Mary sought to embrace his feet, Jesus said: “Touch me not, Mary, for I am not as you knew me in the flesh. In this form will I tarry with you for a season before I ascend to the Father. But go, all of you, now and tell my apostles—and Peter—that I have risen, and that you have talked with me.”

189:4.13 After these women had recovered from the shock of their amazement, they hastened back to the city and to the home of Elijah Mark, where they related to the ten apostles all that had happened to them; but the apostles were not inclined to believe them. They thought at first that the women had seen a vision, but when Mary Magdalene repeated the words which Jesus had spoken to them, and when Peter heard his name, he rushed out of the upper chamber, followed closely by John, in great haste to reach the tomb and see these things for himself.

189:4.14 The women repeated the story of talking with Jesus to the other apostles, but they would not believe; and they would not go to find out for themselves as had Peter and John.
...[time passes]

189:5.3 Peter at first suggested that the grave had been rifled, that enemies had stolen the body, perhaps bribed the guards. But John reasoned that the grave would hardly have been left so orderly if the body had been stolen, and he also raised the question as to how the bandages happened to be left behind, and so apparently intact. And again they both went back into the tomb more closely to examine the grave cloths. As they came out of the tomb the second time, they found Mary Magdalene returned and weeping before the entrance. Mary had gone to the apostles believing that Jesus had risen from the grave, but when they all refused to believe her report, she became downcast and despairing. She longed to go back near the tomb, where she thought she had heard the familiar voice of Jesus.
189:5.4 As Mary lingered after Peter and John had gone, the Master again appeared to her, saying: “Be not doubting; have the courage to believe what you have seen and heard. Go back to my apostles and again tell them that I have risen, that I will appear to them, and that presently I will go before them into Galilee as I promised.”
189:5.5 Mary hurried back to the Mark home and told the apostles she had again talked with Jesus, but they would not believe her. But when Peter and John returned, they ceased to ridicule and became filled with fear and apprehension.

[Meanwhile (later) back at the ranch]:
5. SECOND APPEARANCE TO THE APOSTLES (in Paper 191)
191:5.4 When the Master had so spoken, he looked down into the face of Thomas and said: “And you, Thomas, who said you would not believe unless you could see me and put your finger in the nail marks of my hands, have now beheld me and heard my words; and though you see no nail marks on my hands, since I am raised in the form that you also shall have when you depart from this world, what will you say to your brethren? You will acknowledge the truth, for already in your heart you had begun to believe even when you so stoutly asserted your unbelief. Your doubts, Thomas, always most stubbornly assert themselves just as they are about to crumble. Thomas, I bid you be not faithless but believing—and I know you will believe, even with a whole heart.”

191:5.5 When Thomas heard these words, he fell on his knees before the morontia Master and exclaimed, “I believe! My Lord and my Master!” Then said Jesus to Thomas: “You have believed, Thomas, because you have really seen and heard me. Blessed are those in the ages to come who will believe even though they have not seen with the eye of flesh nor heard with the mortal ear.”

191:5.6 And then, as the Master’s form moved over near the head of the table, he addressed them all, saying: “And now go all of you to Galilee, where I will presently appear to you.” After he said this, he vanished from their sight.

PAPER 189 The Resurrection
0. The Resurrection
1. The Morontia Transit
2. The Material Body of Jesus
3. The Dispensational Resurrection
4. Discovery of the Empty Tomb
5. Peter and John at the Tomb

PAPER 190 Morontia Appearances of Jesus
0. Morontia Appearances of Jesus
1. Heralds of the Resurrection
2. Jesus' Appearance at Bethany
3. At the Home of Joseph
4. Appearance to the Greeks
5. The Walk with Two Brothers

PAPER 191 Appearances to the Apostles and Other Leaders
0. Appearances to the Apostles and Other Leaders
1. The Appearance to Peter
2. First Appearance to the Apostles
3. With the Morontia Creatures
4. The Tenth Appearance (At Philadelphia)
5. Second Appearance to the Apostles
6. The Alexandrian Appearance

PAPER 192 Appearances in Galilee
0. Appearances in Galilee
1. Appearance by the Lake
2. Visiting with the Apostles Two and Two
3. On the Mount of Ordination
4. The Lakeside Gathering

PAPER 193 Final Appearances and Ascension
0. Final Appearances and Ascension
1. The Appearance at Sychar
2. The Phoenician Appearance
3. Last Appearance in Jerusalem
4. Causes of Judas's Downfall
5. The Master's Ascension
6. Peter Calls A Meeting

PAPER 194 Bestowal of the Spirit of Truth
0. Bestowal of the Spirit of Truth
1. The Pentecost Sermon
2. The Significance of Pentecost
3. What Happened at Pentecost
4. Beginnings of the Christian Church

As Jesus said unto Mary touch me not in
John 20:17
Now what is the spirit of the word that Jesus spoke unto Mary ?

Notice that in John 6:63--"It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profiteth nothing,
The words that I speak unto you , They are spirit, and they are life"

Ok, so what is the spirit of the word that Jesus spoke unto Mary, saying touch me not?

 

[Muffled]

If Jesus comes again in the flesh, is that not reincarnation? And did he claim he would come as Jesus again, or did he claim to come as the Spirit of Truth? if he was before abraham, was he not the personality melchizedek then?

I believe since He has been in the flesh since resurrection it is not reincarnation. Resurrection is a form of reincarnation but it is not the traditional rebirth associated with the term.

I believe so and the angels at his ascendance said so also.

I believe God is a Spirit that is everywhere so when he Paraclete came, it is the same thing as having the Spirit of Jesus. However that is referred to as a sending and not a coming.

I believe He was not Melchizadek.

 

[Muffled]

When Jesus returns, Jesus will not be of flesh and blood. But in the Spirit

I believe your statement is contrary to scripture.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus is in the spirit, but the spirit is invisible. When he returns there will be visible manifestation "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Mat 24:27.

I believe that is incorrect. Flesh doe not inherit the realm of spirit. Jesus is in the flesh. What can be said is that The Spirit in Jesus is in the Spirit although that is only perspective since the Spirit is one.

 

[Fool]

I believe since He has been in the flesh since resurrection it is not reincarnation. Resurrection is a form of reincarnation but it is not the traditional rebirth associated with the term.

I believe so and the angels at his ascendance said so also.

I believe God is a Spirit that is everywhere so when he Paraclete came, it is the same thing as having the Spirit of Jesus. However that is referred to as a sending and not a coming.

I believe He was not Melchizadek.

resurrection is not reincarnation. resurrection is the birth of the spirit already entombed in the flesh

there are two birth and two deaths


John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Galatians 4:29
But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

 

[dfnj]

According to the scriptures Jesus is in a glorified state, His flesh is incorruptible...

What does it mean for your body to be in a "glorified state" ? Do you still have human needs? What does incorruptible mean? Does your body glow?

 

[InChrist]

What does it mean for your body to be in a "glorified state" ? Do you still have human needs? What does incorruptible mean? Does your body glow?

I'm not totally sure, but from the scriptures it means the glorified body will not die or suffer disease or pain, it will be eternal.