Jesus' Strange Request

[oldbadger]

Indeed. And some theologians over the years have put that idea forward for Judas as well, as Jesus seems to be giving him a commission to bring this about.

Exactly!

 

[Skwim]

Third time's a charm :


I think he was just commenting on the human condition in general: "They don't know what they're doing".

Okay. That's one thought.

Wouldn't matter if it was expected or not. We would expect a thief to steal, a liar to lie, etc. That doesn't let them off the hook.

To paraphrase the famous Quagmire, " it's only a figure of speech."

I think this explains it:

Matt. 18.7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
New International Version (©1984)

And I don't.

Indeed. And some theologians over the years have put that idea forward for Judas as well, as Jesus seems to be giving him a commission to bring this about.

I agree. The part of Judas was just as important in this scene as the others.

I'm not making an apology for Christianity and am just answering for your curiosity's sake. Jesus has at this point in the story already preached that "The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins."(Matthew 9:6) Its reasonable to ask then "Why is he praying for someone to be forgiven if he is the Son of Man and can just forgive them himself?" This proves forgiveness doesn't work the way that altar-calls say that it does, that Jesus isn't the 'Son of Man' but a type of it. It exposes that prayers don't work the way that people think they do, since Jesus must provide a reason that the offense can be forgiven. The prayer is written down for people to read later, because its a lesson addressed to people who are busy doing good things for strangers who are ungrateful.

Rather than strange his request is a comment about the suffering that happens to us when we try to do the right thing. Why must we suffer for being good? Example: Why do we lose contracts when we refuse to pay kickbacks? People don't understand that kind of behavior, and they crucify you over it because they don't get it. More: Because I don't rob banks I must work day by day. Helping someone who has a flat tire costs me time, and people think I'm a fool for doing it. The tire makes my hands dirty, and I get sweaty. What do I get out of it? People who don't understand would say I get nothing out of it. Well, I can't really fault them for not grasping the return

My impression is that while Jesus had the ability to forgive sins, this seemed to be on a case-by-case basis, and that it took his death to insure one's salvation from hell.

 

[Quagmire]

Okay. That's one thought.

Which puts me one up on you in this debate so far.

To paraphrase the famous Quagmire, " it's only a figure of speech."

Uh huh, and figures of speech mean something.

And I don't.

Is that "And I don't" in response to the whole sentence, or just the "I think" part?

 

[Thief]

Jesus was put on earth to save humanity

John 6 & 38-40
35 Jesus said to them . . .38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
​

Jesus knew this could only be accomplished by giving up his life; he predicted his death.

Matthew 20:17-19
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Mark 10:32-34
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”
​

However, at the moment of crucifixion Jesus says.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
​

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

After all, they're doing exactly what Jesus and god had expected all along. In fact, Jesus' crucifixion, or at least some manner of death, was required so as to accomplish his mission.

Wrong questions....

Salvation is found in the parables....not the death of Someone else.

That He knew ahead of time His ministry would end badly is no surprise.
You speak against authority and authority will have you dead.
From the moment he reported the 'golden rule'...He saw it coming.

Asking forgiveness for the sake of ignorant behavior....doesn't surprise me.

But I doubt such people were actually forgiven.
I suspect, it was done unto them....as they did unto Him.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My impression is that while Jesus had the ability to forgive sins, this seemed to be on a case-by-case basis, and that it took his death to insure one's salvation from hell.

From what I understand of your perspective I don't see how it is strange that he prayed on the cross. So you say he's got the ability to forgive sins but on a case by case basis. He's not dead, but he's going to be dead at the time of the murder. Therefore he will not be present to forgive the murderer(s). Solution: he prays for them ahead of time, since he will not be present to forgive them himself! Is that what you are saying is strange?

 

[Skwim]

Is that "And I don't" in response to the whole sentence, or just the "I think" part?

From what I understand of your perspective I don't see how it is strange that he prayed on the cross.

Not that he prayed, but what he prayed for.

So you say he's got the ability to forgive sins but on a case by case basis.

Actually, I said "My impression."

He's not dead, but he's going to be dead at the time of the murder.

What murder?

Therefore he will not be present to forgive the murderer(s). Solution: he prays for them ahead of time, since he will not be present to forgive them himself! Is that what you are saying is strange?

Nope. Considering that those responsible for Jesus' death did exactly what Jesus and god had expected all along, AND Jesus' crucifixion, or at least some manner of death, was required so as to accomplish his mission, my question is "what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?
​

 

[billthecat]

my question is "what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

I think I understand the perspective from which you ask the question. But I believe you're failing to take Jesus' life and His mission into consideration.

Jesus lived a sinless life as an example for us. Yes, He knows we can't do that - we can't live a sinless life. But he showed us what a sinless life looks like so we know what we're striving for.

What exactly did Jesus do when He prayed that prayer? In the final moments before His death, He prayed for other people. He was wholly selfless and showed what it means to put others first. He could have prayed to no longer feel His pain; He could have prayed for God to strike everyone dead. He could have prayed for any manner of relief for Himself and retribution to those against Him. He didn't do that. Jesus exemplified His life to the very end of His human existence. He didn't falter or stumble into sin even in the harshest of circumstances.

A few years ago (?) when several Amish school children were murdered in their school, one of the girls, just before she was shot, prayed *for the shooter*. She was certainly a sinner - we all are. We all live a life closer to Christ's example in various ways, we all have our particular areas of difficulty. But this young girl, in the seconds before she was murdered, lived her life by Christ's example in His last moment.

Jesus showed us how we are to live right up to the very last breath He took as a man.

Now, we can sit here and go back and forth all day about God and what He knows when He knows it, and free will, and whether anyone "deserves" salvation or damnation. And such discussion can have merit. But what many people who do not Follow Christ fail to take into consideration is FAITH. And, yes, I know that that is seen as a cop-out by non-Followers. But it is what it is. The ultimate failure to understand God is to think one can understand God.

Jesus prayed for the men who killed Him because it was the most Loving selfless thing He could do.

 

[Skwim]

I think I understand the perspective from which you ask the question. But I believe you're failing to take Jesus' life and His mission into consideration.

Jesus lived a sinless life as an example for us. Yes, He knows we can't do that - we can't live a sinless life. But he showed us what a sinless life looks like so we know what we're striving for.

What exactly did Jesus do when He prayed that prayer? In the final moments before His death, He prayed for other people. He was wholly selfless and showed what it means to put others first. He could have prayed to no longer feel His pain; He could have prayed for God to strike everyone dead. He could have prayed for any manner of relief for Himself and retribution to those against Him. He didn't do that. Jesus exemplified His life to the very end of His human existence. He didn't falter or stumble into sin even in the harshest of circumstances.

A few years ago (?) when several Amish school children were murdered in their school, one of the girls, just before she was shot, prayed *for the shooter*. She was certainly a sinner - we all are. We all live a life closer to Christ's example in various ways, we all have our particular areas of difficulty. But this young girl, in the seconds before she was murdered, lived her life by Christ's example in His last moment.

Jesus showed us how we are to live right up to the very last breath He took as a man.

Now, we can sit here and go back and forth all day about God and what He knows when He knows it, and free will, and whether anyone "deserves" salvation or damnation. And such discussion can have merit. But what many people who do not Follow Christ fail to take into consideration is FAITH. And, yes, I know that that is seen as a cop-out by non-Followers. But it is what it is. The ultimate failure to understand God is to think one can understand God.

Jesus prayed for the men who killed Him because it was the most Loving selfless thing He could do.

But you still haven't answered my question.

What is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?
​

 

[billthecat]

my question is "what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

Oh, and to preemptively address the coming repeat of your question - at least one explanation is that He was praying for them at the most obvious level of what was happening - they were killing another human being in the most brutal painful way possible, and they were completely unmoved. They were entirely emotionally calloused and intellectually removed from what they had just done and what they were waiting on.

 

[Skwim]

Oh, and to preemptively address the coming repeat of your question - at least one explanation is that He was praying for them at the most obvious level of what was happening - they were killing another human being in the most brutal painful way possible, and they were completely unmoved. They were entirely emotionally calloused and intellectually removed from what they had just done and what they were waiting on.

Aside from your speculations about the means of killing and the feelings of those responsible, as I have explained in previous posts, the death of Jesus is what both he and god required so as to establish the salvation of others. As such, I fail to see the need for forgiveness. People who do what we want/need them to do, don't qualify for forgiveness.

 

[billthecat]

Aside from your speculations about the means of killing and the feelings of those responsible, as I have explained in previous posts, the death of Jesus is what both he and god required so as to establish the salvation of others. As such, I fail to see the need for forgiveness. People who do what we want/need them to do, don't qualify for forgiveness.

I did answer your question. I think perhaps you don't like the answer, or it doesn't fit with your expectation of a "sufficient answer" - and that is perfectly understandable. But whether you like the answer or accept it doesn't make it the wrong answer.

Whether the executioners were doing exactly what they were purposed by God to do is irrelevant to Jesus' actions. You're trying to make a connection that isn't there.

On the cross, Jesus was a man. As a human being, he was being brutally executed. As a man, even as a man, Jesus asked God to forgive his executioners because that act exemplified Christ's nature and God's desire for us. In His final moments, He showed ultimate selflessness by asking God to forgive them, asking God to show mercy on them even though they did not deserve it.

From GOD'S perspective - you're right - they were doing exactly what He wanted them to do, what He purposed them to do to serve His needs and bring Glory to Himself. God knows they weren't going to be forgiven so Jesus' request went unheeded.

But that fact that God wasn't going to forgive them is completely separate from Jesus' request that they be forgiven.

Speculating here - but I believe you're looking at this from the perspective that Jesus is God on the cross. But that isn't the correct perspective because to do what Jesus came to earth to do he had to be a man on the cross. That is a HUGE difference of perspective.

 

[Skwim]

I did answer your question. I think perhaps you don't like the answer, or it doesn't fit with your expectation of a "sufficient answer" - and that is perfectly understandable. But whether you like the answer or accept it doesn't make it the wrong answer.

I don't like it because it doesn't answer my question.

All I'm looking for are some straight answers to two very simple questions, namely:

Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." So, Just finish the two sentences.

1)They didn't know they were doing __________________________________________ .

2)Not knowing (answer to 1 above↑) deserves forgiveness because __________________________________________ .​

 

[Shiranui117]

I don't like it because it doesn't answer my question.

All I'm looking for are some straight answers to two very simple questions, namely:
Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." So, Just finish the two sentences.

1)They didn't know they were doing __________________________________________ .

They didn't know that they were crucifying God in the flesh.

2)Not knowing (answer to 1 above↑) deserves forgiveness because __________________________________________ .

They mocked Him, insulted Him, beat Him, were vengeful, angry and hateful towards Him. This means they rejected and scorned God, and that is what needs forgiveness.

 

[Skwim]

They didn't know that they were crucifying God in the flesh.

They mocked Him, insulted Him, beat Him, were vengeful, angry and hateful towards Him. This means they rejected and scorned God, and that is what needs forgiveness.

Although a fairly reasonable answer, do you think people need forgiveness for their ignorance? Do honest mistakes qualify for forgiveness? If you happen to throw away a check that someone else happened to put in among papers that you were planning to throw away, does your action require forgiveness? To my way of thinking it does not. Same with those who were ignorant of the fact that Jesus was god. In their minds, those who scorned Jesus weren't rejecting and scorning god. At most, they were scorning an imposter of god, which would likely even happen today were someone to pop up and proclaim himself god.

So, to my mind, no one had done anything requiring forgiveness. However, had they acknowledged Jesus to be god, that would be a whole other story.

 

[billthecat]

1)They didn't know they were doing ... they didn't understand that brutally murdering an innocent man is bad; and innocent or not, they were completely emotionally removed from their actions. They felt absolutely NOTHING about what they had done and what was happening in front of them, to the point that their only concern was who got the victim's possessions. They did not Love others as God wants us to love each other and as Jesus taught. They didn't even understand that concept - they didn't know what they were doing.

2)Not knowing (answer to 1 above↑) deserves forgiveness because... it doesn't DESERVE forgiveness. I can't correctly answer your question as you phrase it because it makes an assumption that is invalid.

The way you phrase your question, in my opinion, assumes that just because Jesus asked for them to be forgiven, that they deserved to be forgiven. That is the leap you are making that is incorrect... clarify.. that is the leap you seem to me to be making.

They did NOT "deserve" forgiveness. BUT - He asked for it for them anyway. It shows us that we are not to harshly judge others regardless of what we believe and instead should ask God for the best for them.

I still think you're looking at this from the perspective that Jesus was the Divine Son of God on the cross. That is the only way you can perceive the contradiction you're pointing out - why did they deserve forgiveness - why did they even need to be forgiven - if they were doing exactly what they were supposed to do to fulfill God's purposes? In fact, why would they be in any way at fault or accountable for doing something they didn't understand and that God made them do?

But, Jesus wasn't the Divine Son of God on the cross. He was a man. And He showed the ultimate act of Love towards another person - asking God to forgive them and show mercy on them and Grace towards them without allowing his own beliefs to interfere.

If that doesn't make sense to you, or doesn't answer your question(s) to your satisfaction, then so be it. I've already repeated myself and I don't think I can phrase it in any other way that would be more enlightening.

 

[billthecat]

do you think people need forgiveness for their ignorance? Do honest mistakes qualify for forgiveness? If you happen to throw away a check that someone else happened to put in among papers that you were planning to throw away, does your action require forgiveness?

That is a thoughtful question. You have to consider what forgiveness is as described in the bible - it means you let something go and do not hold it over someone. (I'm going to rephrase your example to: if someone threw away my check that I put amongst papers they were going to throw away). So, yes, if someone threw away my check even if they didn't mean to and even if it was my fault they did it, then I should forgive them - I should let it go, don't hold it over them, don't use it against them, never mention it again. Forgiveness isn't about or based on whose fault it is. That is a decidedly human take on it. Biblical forgiveness is about moving forward in Love.

Look at it from the other side - failing to forgive. If I fail to forgive, then *I* am the one going to suffer for it. I'm going to simmer and grow more angry and have that grow into bitterness. Again - thinking about deserving forgiveness, or whose fault it is, is the wrong way to look at forgiveness. Instead look at it as not holding something over someone, not using it against them, and freeing MYSELF from the suffering that will come with holding onto the offense.

Same with those who were ignorant of the fact that Jesus was god. In their minds, those who scorned Jesus weren't rejecting and scorning god. At most, they were scorning an imposter of god, which would likely even happen today were someone to pop up and proclaim himself god.

I agree with you on this. I don't think their offense was outright scorning God. In fact they most likely.. very well could have... never heard Jesus' message at all. They were just doing their daily duty of crucifying the condemned. Believing they had an intent to scorn God assumes they believed Jesus was God. I don't think they did. They were mocking him and making fun of Him because they did NOT believe He was anything but a condemned whacko.

And, I agree with you that anyone today claiming to be "God" or a god would be mocked. I've wondered about myself - if Jesus returned today in a very unassuming manner - would I believe.

However, had they acknowledged Jesus to be god, that would be a whole other story.

You're right about that.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Jesus was put on earth to save humanity

John 6 & 38-40
35 Jesus said to them . . .38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
​

Jesus knew this could only be accomplished by giving up his life; he predicted his death.

Matthew 20:17-19
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Mark 10:32-34
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”
​

However, at the moment of crucifixion Jesus says.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
​

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

After all, they're doing exactly what Jesus and god had expected all along. In fact, Jesus' crucifixion, or at least some manner of death, was required so as to accomplish his mission.

MPO will always be that Jesus' gift to us was to allow us to talk to or comunicate tom or allow us to be "heard" was the main purpose. Jesus' award for this will be the inheritance of "earthly existence"; I guess kind of like the "Future King of the World".

 

[horizon_mj1]

Although a fairly reasonable answer, do you think people need forgiveness for their ignorance? Do honest mistakes qualify for forgiveness? If you happen to throw away a check that someone else happened to put in among papers that you were planning to throw away, does your action require forgiveness? To my way of thinking it does not.{/quote} I would disagree. If it was you who threw the papers away without knowing exactly what all was there, then yes, your blatant disregard to the check being there is what resulted in the lose.

Same with those who were ignorant of the fact that Jesus was god. In their minds, those who scorned Jesus weren't rejecting and scorning god. At most, they were scorning an imposter of god, which would likely even happen today were someone to pop up and proclaim himself god.

So, to my mind, no one had done anything requiring forgiveness. However, had they acknowledged Jesus to be god, that would be a whole other story.

Once again I disagree, you are not your children any more than your children are you; there is a difference like it or not. However this does not in anyway meant that the 'main concept" isn't shared

 

[Skwim]

1)They didn't know they were doing ... they didn't understand that brutally murdering an innocent man is bad; and innocent or not, they were completely emotionally removed from their actions.

Calling it murder is unwarranted. It wasn't murder because it had been sanctioned by those in power to do so; Pilate.

They felt absolutely NOTHING about what they had done and what was happening in front of them, to the point that their only concern was who got the victim's possessions. They did not Love others as God wants us to love each other and as Jesus taught. They didn't even understand that concept - they didn't know what they were doing.

I won't say that it's amazing that you know what was in their minds, but simply dismiss it as unwarranted assertions.

2)Not knowing (answer to 1 above&#8593 deserves forgiveness because... it doesn't DESERVE forgiveness. I can't correctly answer your question as you phrase it because it makes an assumption that is invalid.

Seems Jesus had other ideas about what it deserved.

The way you phrase your question, in my opinion, assumes that just because Jesus asked for them to be forgiven, that they deserved to be forgiven.

Yup, and that's all were talking about; what Jesus did.

They did NOT "deserve" forgiveness. BUT - He asked for it for them anyway.

And what was Jesus reason for doing it anyaway? It was: "They know not what they do." My questions is: What was it they didn't know?

if someone threw away my check that I put amongst papers they were going to throw away). So, yes, if someone threw away my check even if they didn't mean to and even if it was my fault they did it, then I should forgive them - I should let it go, don't hold it over them, don't use it against them, never mention it again. Forgiveness isn't about or based on whose fault it is.

So why would you hold it against them in the first place? You might be sad, upset, or even angry that the check had been tossed out with the trash, but to assign blame (find fault with; censure) is unreasonable. They were certainly responsible, but it wasn't an act that merited forgiveness.

 

[horizon_mj1]

So why would you hold it against them in the first place? You might be sad, upset, or even angry that the check had been tossed out with the trash, but to assign blame (find fault with; censure) is unreasonable. They were certainly responsible, but it wasn't an act that merited forgiveness.

Yes it was. What kind of a person are you if you can not be responsible for your own actions? So who should the blame go to, Satan or the Devil? IMO yes it does warrant an apology That is the problem with the world; no one wants to be responsible for their own actions so they say, "well it wasn't my fault" when it was the same person who acted; or the persons actions is what caused the check to end up in the trash (not that the person who put the check with a bunch of "throwaway papers" is not in part to blame as well:yes: