Jesus: The Misunderstood Messiah

[Sundance]

Fiery is fine. Fiery in furtherance of foolishness,
not so much.

I dont hold back much.
I do like to see reason and evidence
though, employed in any discussion.

The "accuse of lying" thing didn't happen,
and makes no sense, as has been carefully
and meaningfully pointed out to you.

Any ongoing failure on your part to acknowledge your mistake doesn't
fit with a ressoned discussion.

It is a total side issue any way, and has
no actual bearing on the right or wrong
of your basic thesis.

As before, think it over.

Once again, the accusation of lying is implied by the use of the word false. It’s this simple.

 

[Clara Tea]

In examining the criticisms made by religious Jews regarding Jesus as a false messiah, I’m honestly not convinced. Why? Simple: a disconnection of terminology. A divergence in understanding.

Regarding the word “messiah”, typically speaking, (from my understanding) the word was used in the Tanakh to describe an anointed king. During the Second Temple period, the concept of “The Messiah” as a distinct figure began to emerge. Past an anointed king, there wasn’t one particular conception of who this figure was or what He was to do.

After the Romans came to power, certain Jewish people began looking for a person to topple the oppressive political structures and restore Jewish sovereignty. Many individuals came up, claiming to be this person. One by one, all had failed.

Then, Jesus of Nazareth came. He was different. He never claimed to be the person who will take down Roman oppression or restore the sovereignty of His people to their land. Rather, He claimed that His Mission was to save His People (and indeed, all people) from the penalty for their sins. He was not claiming to be an earthly king, but rather, the ruler of people’s hearts. This is what He meant by His Claim to be the Messiah, even alluding to Isaiah chapter 61 to inaugurate His Ministry.


This reality begs the question: why have Jewish people slandered Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah, when the New Testament never records Him as making claims to do any of what THEY say the Messiah is supposed to do? Do they understand what HE actually meant?

In my eyes, He’s not false, just misunderstood. Religious Jews say certain things about the Messiah, but Jesus was talking about something else.

(Addendum: Religious Jews have also made the claim that Jesus was not observant of the commandments and taught His Followers to do the same. This is false. He was observant, and actually told His Followers time and again, “Keep the commandments.” “Obey the commandments.” “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”)

Jews aren't attacking your God (nor son of God). They merely don't believe that he is the Messiah, and that is their right.

Prophecy of the coming of a Messiah was Jewish, and written in Hebrew. Jews speak modern Hebrew (not the same as ancient Hebrew because they were forced not to speak that by those who enslaved them). So, Jews are experts (sort of) in their own language. They are also experts in their own prophecy that there will be a Messiah. Jewish Rabbis have studied years to acquire their knowledge.

In the days of Jesus, many had claimed to be the Messiah. Once was a thief named Jesus Ben Abbas (which means Jesus, son of God), and he was scheduled to be crucified, too, but somehow escaped.

It is enticing that maybe there was a God (or son) who could take away our sins and allow entry into eternal paradise. That is a powerful motivation for everyone to insist that the Jews are wrong.

But you need to look this up on the internet and find information that will convince you. Obviously, the info that I could find would not convince you.

 

[Sundance]

Jews aren't attacking your God (nor son of God). They merely don't believe that he is the Messiah, and that is their right.

Prophecy of the coming of a Messiah was Jewish, and written in Hebrew. Jews speak modern Hebrew (not the same as ancient Hebrew because they were forced not to speak that by those who enslaved them). So, Jews are experts (sort of) in their own language. They are also experts in their own prophecy that there will be a Messiah. Jewish Rabbis have studied years to acquire their knowledge.

In the days of Jesus, many had claimed to be the Messiah. Once was a thief named Jesus Ben Abbas (which means Jesus, son of God), and he was scheduled to be crucified, too, but somehow escaped.

It is enticing that maybe there was a God (or son) who could take away our sins and allow entry into eternal paradise. That is a powerful motivation for everyone to insist that the Jews are wrong.

But you need to look this up on the internet and find information that will convince you. Obviously, the info that I could find would not convince you.

Again, any difference of understanding poses no problem for me. What does is saying that someone is not telling the truth about who they are simply because of criterion they do not apply to themselves in the first place.

Rabbinic Jews say “Jesus is a false messiah claimant because he didn’t do abc.” Jesus never claimed to do “abc”, rather “xyz”. There’s a clear misunderstanding here.

 

[metis]

(Addendum: Religious Jews have also made the claim that Jesus was not observant of the commandments and taught His Followers to do the same. This is false. He was observant, and actually told His Followers time and again, “Keep the commandments.” “Obey the commandments.” “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”)

Well, that can be played both ways because it becomes a matter of interpretation and subsequent application.

 

[Nivek001]

It is not "slander" of Jesus to say, "I don't think he met the requirements of what the Tanakh says the Messiah will be/do, therefore I don't think he was the Messiah."

He didn't. He was no more a king than I am a President. If I claimed to be the President, then redefined "President" to mean, "a spiritual leader of people hearts," that would be an absurd moving of the goalposts on my part.

On some level, I think even Christians recognize this, as they admit Jesus didn't fulfill all the requirements. Thus they claim he's going to come back a second time to finish the job.

Recognize that Jesus didn’t fulfill or didn’t yet fulfill? Many Christians await the second coming and there are supposed to be further things that the Messiah is supposed to accomplish such as personally ruling over the Earth for nearly 1,000 years.
To many Jews back in the early 1st century who were under Roman oppression they were seeking for a Messiah who would fulfill what they wanted to fulfill. They wanted the Messiah to personally establish his direct rule ASAP instead of finding out what the Messiah was actually intending to do.


2 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 13:2-6 KJV

 

[Audie]

Once again, the accusation of lying is implied by the use of the word false. It’s this simple.

You would have to come up with more than semantic games to be convincing.
Like some reliable-source, documents re an
official position.

In the event, what's it to you?

This stance of yours has a whiff of working
up a righteous pogrom.

As a member of an ethnic group with
plenty of history in the USA of lies, defamation
and persecution directed at us, I am attuned
to signs.

What ARE you doing? I find your charges
to be illogical, false and invidious.

Christians have a deep history of savage
anti Jewish behaviour. What is your purpose here?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

In examining the criticisms made by religious Jews regarding Jesus as a false messiah, I’m honestly not convinced. Why? Simple: a disconnection of terminology. A divergence in understanding.

Regarding the word “messiah”, typically speaking, (from my understanding) the word was used in the Tanakh to describe an anointed king. During the Second Temple period, the concept of “The Messiah” as a distinct figure began to emerge. Past an anointed king, there wasn’t one particular conception of who this figure was or what He was to do.

After the Romans came to power, certain Jewish people began looking for a person to topple the oppressive political structures and restore Jewish sovereignty. Many individuals came up, claiming to be this person. One by one, all had failed.

Then, Jesus of Nazareth came. He was different. He never claimed to be the person who will take down Roman oppression or restore the sovereignty of His people to their land. Rather, He claimed that His Mission was to save His People (and indeed, all people) from the penalty for their sins. He was not claiming to be an earthly king, but rather, the ruler of people’s hearts. This is what He meant by His Claim to be the Messiah, even alluding to Isaiah chapter 61 to inaugurate His Ministry.


This reality begs the question: why have Jewish people slandered Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah, when the New Testament never records Him as making claims to do any of what THEY say the Messiah is supposed to do? Do they understand what HE actually meant?

In my eyes, He’s not false, just misunderstood. Religious Jews say certain things about the Messiah, but Jesus was talking about something else.

(Addendum: Religious Jews have also made the claim that Jesus was not observant of the commandments and taught His Followers to do the same. This is false. He was observant, and actually told His Followers time and again, “Keep the commandments.” “Obey the commandments.” “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”)

I actually sort of get where you are coming from with this, and I think a lot of people in this thread are still misunderstanding, and wanting to see a fight where there isn't any.

Basically, it seems like you're trying to state that Jesus was an entity unto himself. And as the founder of the Christian movement (after a fashion), though the movement does have a large part of its tradition and scripture come from the Jewish faith, you don't necessarily feel it pertinent that the Jews weigh in on whether or not Jesus was their "Messiah" - because what Christian's really care about more is that they accept him as "a king" of some form or another.

The main problem there is that there have been quite a few Christians who chastise those of Jewish faith for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah - basically committing the same faux pas that you're decrying with this thread. Basically - the Jewish "Messiah" is also an entity unto itself (himself/herself) and as such, Jews don't need Christians to weigh in on whether or not anyone has or hasn't met the conditions to be considered their Messiah either.

In other words - ya'll need to stay out of each others business, apparently.

 

[Nivek001]

It the religious who most misunderdtsnd who he was.

Which religious who misunderstood?

How did they misunderstand?

 

[Audie]

Which religious who misunderstood?

How did they misunderstand?

Christians thinking he was god-?

 

[Left Coast]

Recognize that Jesus didn’t fulfill or didn’t yet fulfill? Many Christians await the second coming and there are supposed to be further things that the Messiah is supposed to accomplish such as personally ruling over the Earth for nearly 1,000 years.

This is my point. Christians recognize that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophesies in the Tanakh. Thus they record Jesus as saying that he's going to come back some day to actually fulfill them.

This is why Jews don't accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim he's the Messiah, but then when it's pointed out to him that he hasn't done any of the things the Messiah is supposed to do, say, "Oh I know. I'm going to come back to Earth after I die and fulfill those things next time around."

To many Jews back in the early 1st century who were under Roman oppression they were seeking for a Messiah who would fulfill what they wanted to fulfill.

Ie what the Tanakh actually says the Messiah will fulfill. Yes, I know.

2 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 13:2-6 KJV

What an oddly parsed semi-quote of the passage. It actually says:

“It shall be in that day,” says the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land. 3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.

4 “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. 5 But he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Surely you're not going to claim Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

 

[Nivek001]

Christians thinking he was god-?

How is that a misunderstanding?


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 8:56-59 KJV

 

[Audie]

How is that a misunderstanding?


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 8:56-59 KJV

So?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Religious Jews today say Jesus is a false Messiah

Source? Even so they are perhaps responding to the version of Jesus presented and may not actually know much about Jesus. For example if I say to some random religious Jew "Jesus was a prophet, and he said that he is God." Of course that Jewish person must conclude based upon that statement that the statement implies a false prophet, but that Jewish person has not condemened Jesus. He has (as required by Torah) made a judgment about that statement.

Religious Jews today call Him a liar, a false messiah, a false prophet.

Source, please?

Consider that the most popular, the most famous Torah scholar Hyam MacCoby doesn't conclude in his book Paul the Mythmaker that even Paul is a liar. He presents arguments. He presents situations. He prosecutes and compells a possible answer, but he never concludes. His book title is the only indication, and it could be read as an interrogative. He never concludes Jesus is false, never raises a finger of accusation against Paul.

Why? Slander is too serious a crime in Judaism, and I argue that's why. It goes against the whole spirit of Judaism (and Christianity too while we are at it). Where does Jesus learn that judging others is not good? Through Judaism. Where does Judaism learn it? Through the Torah, as witnessed by Isaiah and by means of the Torah through the spirit which we Christians term the Holy Spirit. Isaiah speaking through the spirit and by inspiration of the Torah says that "A bruised reed he will not break and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out." Therefore religious Jews are reticent, even seemingly impaired to accuse Jesus of being a liar. Rather they always speak conditionally, and the more scholarly they are the more conditional their claims are.

 

[Sundance]

You would have to come up with more than semantic games to be convincing.
Like some reliable-source, documents re an
official position.

In the event, what's it to you?

This stance of yours has a whiff of working
up a righteous pogrom.

As a member of an ethnic group with
plenty of history in the USA of lies, defamation
and persecution directed at us, I am attuned
to signs.

What ARE you doing? I find your charges
to be illogical, false and invidious.

Christians have a deep history of savage
anti Jewish behaviour. What is your purpose here?

Regarding the accusation of semantics games, it’s unfounded. It’s common knowledge that Jews claim that Jesus is a false messiah claimant, a false prophet, as He doesn’t fulfill their Messianic expectations.

Regarding my intentions, my intentions are clear: to call into question the use of the word “false” in describing Jesus’ claim to be Messiah. I find it inaccurate to say the least. A fairer and more accurate description would be “idiosyncratic”. Again, because He never makes the claims of Himself associated with the Rabbinic understanding of the Messiah. He makes very different claims.

My dear, I, too, am a member of an ethnic minority in my particular country. I’m an African-American. My people and Jewish people share much in terms of their histories and struggles.


My dear, I am no Christian. I’m sympathetic to their religion, and to Judaism as well.

 

[Nivek001]

This is my point. Christians recognize that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophesies in the Tanakh. Thus they record Jesus as saying that he's going to come back some day to actually fulfill them.

This is why Jews don't accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim he's the Messiah, but then when it's pointed out to him that he hasn't done any of the things the Messiah is supposed to do, say, "Oh I know. I'm going to come back to Earth after I die and fulfill those things next time around."



Ie what the Tanakh actually says the Messiah will fulfill. Yes, I know.



What an oddly parsed semi-quote of the passage. It actually says:

How did Jesus not fulfill the following?

Surely you're not going to claim Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

Jesus coming back again and the Messiah coming BOTH deal with waiting. To the Jews who only wanted the Messiah to fulfill what they wanted would have to wait longer whether one considers to be the their idea of the Messiah’s coming or Jesus’s Second Coming. Both cases still await for the direct rule.
You didn’t prove that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill everything in one coming:
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.Psalms 22:1-16 KJV

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 42:7 KJV

6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Isaiah 50:6 KJV

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5 KJV

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
Zechariah 11:13 KJV

 

[Nivek001]

So?

That is a scripture where Jesus was saying straight up that Abraham knew him and the reason why is because he said he was “I AM”. That is a name for God.

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:14 KJV

 

[Harel13]

This reality begs the question: why have Jewish people slandered Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah, when the New Testament never records Him as making claims to do any of what THEY say the Messiah is supposed to do? Do they understand what HE actually meant?

Us? Christians have always chosen to depict him so. And for millennia they've tried to force those ideas on us. Actually, the Talmud depicts Jesus in a different manner and blames him for other things. But does anyone care about that?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

This is semantics. The Messiah was supposed to do xyz. Jesus didn't. The Christian rationalization is that he'll do them in a second round, since he didn't the first time. No conception of the Messiah predating Jesus interpreted the Tanakh to say the Messiah would first die without completing the Messianic prophecies, but then come back to Earth later and finish them a second time. That's a change.

And none of this is "slander" of Jesus. That was my original point here.

The Messiah was supposed to do xyz, and he did. The problem is many don't truly understand what God meant by the xyz. They have put their own definitions on what the xyz has to be. And then they declare him to have failed.

 

[Sundance]

Source? Even so they are perhaps responding to the version of Jesus presented and may not actually know much about Jesus. For example if I say to some random religious Jew "Jesus was a prophet, and he said that he is God." Of course that Jewish person must conclude based upon that statement that the statement implies a false prophet, but that Jewish person has not condemened Jesus. He has (as required by Torah) made a judgment about that statement.

Source, please?

Consider that the most popular, the most famous Torah scholar Hyam MacCoby doesn't conclude in his book Paul the Mythmaker that even Paul is a liar. He presents arguments. He presents situations. He prosecutes and compells a possible answer, but he never concludes. His book title is the only indication, and it could be read as an interrogative. He never concludes Jesus is false, never raises a finger of accusation against Paul.

Why? Slander is too serious a crime in Judaism, and I argue that's why. It goes against the whole spirit of Judaism (and Christianity too while we are at it). Where does Jesus learn that judging others is not good? Through Judaism. Where does Judaism learn it? Through the Torah, as witnessed by Isaiah and by means of the Torah through the spirit which we Christians term the Holy Spirit. Isaiah speaking through the spirit and by inspiration of the Torah says that "A bruised reed he will not break and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out." Therefore religious Jews are reticent, even seemingly impaired to accuse Jesus of being a liar. Rather they always speak conditionally, and the more scholarly they are the more conditional their claims are.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia

Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity


Regarding Jesus’s relationship with Judaism as a religion, there’s no doubt that He was intimately connected to it.

 

[Sundance]

Us? Christians have always chosen to depict him so. And for millennia they've tried to force those ideas on us. Actually, the Talmud depicts Jesus in a different manner and blames him for other things. But does anyone care about that?

Christians recognize that Jesus is the Messiah off of His own Claims to be so. What Jesus actually meant by it is something fundamentally different from the conception that Rabbinic Jews have.

Unfortunately, that has happened in history. It’s absolutely shameful that Jewish people have gone through what they have.

Out of curiosity, what does the Talmud say about Jesus?