Jesus: The Misunderstood Messiah

[Brickjectivity]

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia

Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity


Regarding Jesus’s relationship with Judaism as a religion, there’s no doubt that He was intimately connected to it.

1. The first link only says "Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach." They don't slander him, so it doesn't count as an example of slander.
   
2. The second link doesn't contain the word 'False' and is pure apologetic material. No slander here.
3. The third link is a broad Wikipedia article. Has only 2 external links containing the word 'False' and neither accuses Jesus of being a false messiah.
   
4. The fourth link also does not accuse Jesus of being a false messiah. Again, all they do is say that don't believe it.

Why don't they do this? All humans are considered descended from Adam, the son of God. Hence all humans are celestial beings in that sense. Here is where Christianity takes things a little further than Judaism. In Judaism if a man is to be cursed there must be very serious reasons for it, but in Christianity no human is to be cursed at all. We are to curse no man, no woman, no child. James argues how can we bless God and curse men with the same mouth.

This is also how I know that saying "I don't believe Jesus to be the messiah" is very far from slander.

 

[Nivek001]

This is my point. Christians recognize that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophesies in the Tanakh. Thus they record Jesus as saying that he's going to come back some day to actually fulfill them.

This is why Jews don't accept that Jesus is the Messiah. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim he's the Messiah, but then when it's pointed out to him that he hasn't done any of the things the Messiah is supposed to do, say, "Oh I know. I'm going to come back to Earth after I die and fulfill those things next time around."



Ie what the Tanakh actually says the Messiah will fulfill. Yes, I know.



What an oddly parsed semi-quote of the passage. It actually says:



Surely you're not going to claim Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

“It shall be in that day,” says the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land. 3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.

4 “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. 5 But he will say, ‘I amno prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Where does it say that this was supposed to all happen within one visit?

 

[Audie]

Regarding the accusation of semantics games, it’s unfounded. It’s common knowledge that Jews claim that Jesus is a false messiah claimant, a false prophet, as He doesn’t fulfill their Messianic expectations.

Regarding my intentions, my intentions are clear: to call into question the use of the word “false” in describing Jesus’ claim to be Messiah. I find it inaccurate to say the least. A fairer and more accurate description would be “idiosyncratic”. Again, because He never makes the claims of Himself associated with the Rabbinic understanding of the Messiah. He makes very different claims.

My dear, I, too, am a member of an ethnic minority in my particular country. I’m an African-American. My people and Jewish people share much in terms of their histories and struggles.


My dear, I am no Christian. I’m sympathetic to their religion, and to Judaism as well.

Call it semantics, call it illogical, I hope you
are the only one here who cannot see it makes no sense.

You did not address my question,
Why are you doing this?

I am not your dear, you don't get to
address me so, Especially as it carries the odor of condescension

 

[Sundance]

1. The first link only says "Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach." They don't slander him, so it doesn't count as an example of slander.
   
2. The second link doesn't contain the word 'False' and is pure apologetic material. No slander here.
3. The third link is a broad Wikipedia article. Has only 2 external links containing the word 'False' and neither accuses Jesus of being a false messiah.
   
4. The fourth link also does not accuse Jesus of being a false messiah. Again, all they do is say that don't believe it.

Why don't they do this? All humans are considered descended from Adam, the son of God. Hence all humans are celestial beings in that sense. Here is where Christianity takes things a little further than Judaism. In Judaism if a man is to be cursed there must be very serious reasons for it, but in Christianity no human is to be cursed at all. We are to curse no man, no woman, no child. James argues how can we bless God and curse men with the same mouth.

This is also how I know that saying "I don't believe Jesus to be the messiah" is very far from slander.

Hmmmmm....Brick, perhaps you’re right. I did not exercise an even temper in my OP, or in my replies to you, or Audie, or anyone else who commented. I humbly apologize to you.

 

[firedragon]

This reality begs the question: why have Jewish people slandered Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah, when the New Testament never records Him as making claims to do any of what THEY say the Messiah is supposed to do? Do they understand what HE actually meant?

You know what? Its a strange question, but a very valid one in terms of New Testament theology and a marriage of rationality with it.

Its a good question.

 

[Audie]

That is a scripture where Jesus was saying straight up that Abraham knew him and the reason why is because he said he was “I AM”. That is a name for God.

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:14 KJV

As if anyone actually knows anything he said,
and here you claim verbatim quotes.
Left out the ones where he directly denies it.

 

[Audie]

Hmmmmm....Brick, perhaps you’re right. I did not exercise an even temper in my OP, or in my replies to you, or Audie, or anyone else who commented. I humbly apologize to you.

I probably have a worse temper.
I didn't see any bad temper anyway,
Just a lot of facts that are not facts and
deeply unjust accusation. You owe
me nothing but you may owe yourself something.

 

[Sundance]

Call it semantics, call it illogical, I hope you
are the only one here who cannot see it makes no sense.

You did not address my question,
Why are you doing this?

I am not your dear, you don't get to
address me so, Especially as it carries the odor of condescension

Audie, you’re right. It does make no sense. I’m sorry for responding in a less than clear-headed manner.

Forgive me, again, for not understanding. Could you please repeat the question?

Forgive me a third time, I meant no condescension. I just don’t know you in a familiar way. I use it to address people formally. “(Dear) sir.” “(Dear) madam.”

 

[Audie]

Audie, you’re right. It does make no sense. I’m sorry for responding in a less than clear-headed manner.

Forgive me, again, for not understanding. Could you please repeat the question?

Forgive me a third time, I meant no condescension. I just don’t know you in a familiar way. I use it to address people formally. “(Dear) sir.” “(Dear) madam.”

What purpose do you have for this unjust attack on the jews?

 

[Sundance]

I probably have a worse temper.
I didn't see any bad temper anyway,
Just a lot of facts that are not facts and
deeply unjust accusation. You owe
me nothing but you may owe yourself something.

I see. Perhaps you’re right. I owe myself the honest truth regarding this matter.

 

[Sundance]

What purpose do you have for this unjust attack on the jews?

I was underneath the gravely mistaken impression that more religious Jews claimed that Jesus is a false messiah (which is to say that, He was deceitful in His Teachings), rather than simply saying that they are not too convinced that He is the Messiah. Thanks to @Harel13 and @Brickjectivity, and a reviewing of different sources on the Internet, I understand that my initial impression was false.

 

[Audie]

I was underneath the gravely mistaken impression that more religious Jews claimed that Jesus is a false messiah (which is to say that, He was deceitful in His Teachings), rather than simply saying that they are not too convinced that He is the Messiah. Thanks to @Harel13 and @Brickjectivity, and a reviewing of different sources on the Internet, I understand that my initial impression was false.

Few can admit they nsde a mistake

 

[Left Coast]

“It shall be in that day,” says the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land. 3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.

4 “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. 5 But he will say, ‘I amno prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Where does it say that this was supposed to all happen within one visit?

What a clever attempt to shift the burden of proof. Who would read that passage and think it is saying that it would be partially, "spiritually" fulfilled at one time, and then the Messiah would die and come back to Earth thousands of years later to finish the rest?

Even more relevant, what evidence is there that any Jews before Jesus interpreted the passage in such a way?

And even more relevant, what version of Christianity imagines that Jesus will fulfill this prophecy, even on the second round? Jesus' "father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies?" When did/will that happen?

Jesus will announce that "he is no prophet, he is a farmer?" When did/will that happen?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Actually, the Talmud depicts Jesus in a different manner and blames him for other things. But does anyone care about that?

Maybe, maybe not. Is it in the Talmud as a hypothetical or what? I wouldn't be able to tell. Anyways I'd be pretty nervous trying to argue about something in the Talmud, and it would have to be in English and so on. Anyways I get the impression that its very difficult reading even translated. What could they possibly say about Jesus that would be so terrible? Anyways we have a passage quoting Jesus that says "Whoever speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven," and assuming that is about or includes Jesus then its forgiven. So I can pretty much not worry about it unless its some kind of a warning. If its a warning then why isn't it in the canon with the other warnings? Hence it probably isn't a warning to me.

Hmmmmm....Brick, perhaps you’re right. I did not exercise an even temper in my OP, or in my replies to you, or Audie, or anyone else who commented. I humbly apologize to you.

You've been polite to me. We should move on to something else you have been talking about other than this slander thing. You have said that Jews have misinterpreted what a messiah is, and that is a potentially lively discussion. Another question is whether Christians have misinterpreted it, so there is plenty of space for dialogue about it.

 

[Nivek001]

As if anyone actually knows anything he said,
and here you claim verbatim quotes.
Left out the ones where he directly denies it.

And your proof that Jesus fir certain never said he was the “I AM” is what?

The point is that it is believed by Christians Jesus is divine and that scripture John 8:58 gives a point of reference on what many Christians believe.

There has not been anything that disproves Jesus ever saying that. That leaves it up to us to determine whether we believe Jesus said he was The I AM and whether that declaration is true:


5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:5-6 KJV

How is it believed one can get wisdom from God?

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:26 KJV

How is it believed one receives that comforting assurance from the Holy Ghost that what is true regarding God?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23 KJV

So does one truly find wisdom from God that way?

There is only one way to find out, and that is to actually ask God in faith and then see what happens.

You certainly cannot find any answers through any lack of evidence presented that the whole world can see. After all how does a lack of evidence for the world to see proves one cannot get answers from a God who withholds such evidence from us intentionally?

A lack of such evidence would be a good point to consider if the belief in question was in a God who would bring out such evidence to the world so that we would not have to rely on faith, but that is NOT what is believed among many Christians. The belief is in a God who wants us to rely on faith.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:6 KJV

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 KJV

 

[Nivek001]

What a clever attempt to shift the burden of proof. Who would read that passage and think it is saying that it would be partially, "spiritually" fulfilled at one time, and then the Messiah would die and come back to Earth thousands of years later to finish the rest?

Even more relevant, what evidence is there that any Jews before Jesus interpreted the passage in such a way?

You said none of what was said in the Tanakh regarding what the Messiah would was accomplished by Jesus and his story of his mortal ministry, And I pointed to some scriptures that say to the contrary if your claim.

Also, you are the one with the claim here that Jesus fulfilled nothing from his first coming. That means the burden of proof is upon you to prove that since you did NOT say I. Your claim that it is based o your belief.

Also, just because you cited some things prophecied regarding what the Messiah was to do does NOT prove you cited ALL that was prophecied what the Messiah would do.

Also there were some Jews who figured out that the prophecies of the Messiah would cover more than one visit. There were at least 12 of them who even became Apostles. There were also plenty of of others who were disciples of Jesus Christ who were Jews as well.

 

[Harel13]

Christians recognize that Jesus is the Messiah off of His own Claims to be so. What Jesus actually meant by it is something fundamentally different from the conception that Rabbinic Jews have.

Could be. Whatever he did mean by it, nonetheless, doesn't work for Jews.

Unfortunately, that has happened in history. It’s absolutely shameful that Jewish people have gone through what they have.

I actually wasn't referring to what Christians physically did to Jews. I was talking about the theological aspect.

Out of curiosity, what does the Talmud say about Jesus?

Jesus is mentioned a few times in the Talmud. interestingly, the Church disliked this and enforced a censor of these sections. Jews were smart enough to request permission from the Church to be able to make booklets where they wrote the censored sections, in order to know not to copy them (when things where copied by hand) or print them (after printing was invented) in the Talmud itself. Now, as I said, Jesus is mentioned a few times, and so are some of his disciples. However, many hold that this couldn't have been the same Jesus every time, because of anachronisms. For example, one mention of him has him as the student of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachiah, who lived some generations prior to the Jesus of the NT. In fact, there are some the opine that none of the Jesuses mentioned in the Talmud are the NT's Jesus. But I'm of the opinion that at least some of them are. Jesus is blamed in the Talmud for witchcraft and leading others astray. For this, he was punished by hanging on the day before Passover. Some of his disciples also received capital punishment.
That's the Talmudic Jesus in a nutshell.

 

[Harel13]

Hence it probably isn't a warning to me.

Likely not. The Talmud was written for Jews, not non-Jews.

 

[Harel13]

I was underneath the gravely mistaken impression that more religious Jews claimed that Jesus is a false messiah (which is to say that, He was deceitful in His Teachings), rather than simply saying that they are not too convinced that He is the Messiah. Thanks to @Harel13 and @Brickjectivity, and a reviewing of different sources on the Internet, I understand that my initial impression was false.

I'll clarify: We contend that Jesus, as he's depicted by Christians, was a false messiah. Jesus as depicted by the Talmud is to be blamed for other sins. The question on my mind is: How do we resolve the contradictions between the Talmud and the NT in terms of the portrayal of Jesus? That'll be open-ended, for the moment.

 

[Sundance]

I don’t think that either one misinterpreted the concept, Brick. The understandings are just different, that’s all. Though, I have mistakenly accused religious Jews of slander, because of my own lack of comprehension. It does cause to think: what else do I not understand about Judaism??