Jesus was a Jew. When did his followers stop being Jews?

[Rival]

I did not mention the Jews and the OT is as much for Christians as it is for the Jews.

You said this:

There is only 1 Bible. It has 2 testaments. Both were inspired by God. Both are for Christians. Which one establishes the law is irrelevant, it is established.

This is a statement. You should set it out as a belief, rather than a statement; because in my view, it is not true.

 

[omega2xx]

You said this:

This is a statement. You should set it out as a belief, rather than a statement; because in my view, it is not true.

I stated it as a fact. When you become omniscient I will reconsider my view.

 

[Rival]

I stated it as a fact. When you become omniscient I will reconsider my view.

It's not a fact. It's your belief. I've also reported you for your rule 8 violation with it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Isn't it amazing that only a relative "few" of the Jews responded to Jesus' criticism of the Jewish religious leaders of the day as being correct? (Matthew 23:13-36) They could clearly see it and had experienced the condescension of those negligent 'shepherds' as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent. Unlike the Pharisees, Jesus presented a way to God that was not burdensome...his "load was kindly and his load was light". This is why they felt refreshed, rather than judged and loaded down.

Propaganda, much? The prophet is very sensitive to what we consider to be small grievances and small infractions. They view the tiniest thing as an enormous evil. You should not be judging the religious leaders. This is about Jesus and does not give a human view of the leaders. All people are evil compared to God. Just be thankful nobody is comparing you with God today.

It was prophesied that only a "remnant" of the fleshly Jews would return to true worship. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)

Amateurish. The entire set of prophets talks about purification. Israel gets purified continually throughout its existence. Its not some big surprise, and you are really just pointing fingers.

Their history was recounted by Jesus in Matthew 23:37-39. There was nothing new or unusual about their behavior. They were incorrigible. Once God had fulfilled his obligation to Israel, and they had his son put to death, their behavior warranted a 'divorce'. God has not blessed their nation because they have refused to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, finding every excuse not to.

First, Matthew has like 20 'Fullfillments' of scripture that are not fulfillments. He's not exactly Dr. Fulfill. Secondly, Jewish people were the most advanced culture of their time, treating one another kindly and well spoken of by other cultures. Top. You are taking Matthew way, way beyond its purpose by using it to define Jews and cast aspersions. Again, just be glad you aren't being compared against God. Nobody stands up to that kind of rigor, and remember that Jesus here is pointing out faults that you would never have noticed in such mild and selfless people. Above all your accusation against all Jews is amateurish and unfair.

 

[RabbiO]

Isn't it amazing that only a relative "few" of the Jews responded to Jesus' criticism of the Jewish religious leaders of the day as being correct? (Matthew 23:13-36) They could clearly see it and had experienced the condescension of those negligent 'shepherds' as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent. Unlike the Pharisees, Jesus presented a way to God that was not burdensome...his "load was kindly and his load was light". This is why they felt refreshed, rather than judged and loaded down.

It was prophesied that only a "remnant" of the fleshly Jews would return to true worship. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)
Their history was recounted by Jesus in Matthew 23:37-39. There was nothing new or unusual about their behavior. They were incorrigible. Once God had fulfilled his obligation to Israel, and they had his son put to death, their behavior warranted a 'divorce'. God has not blessed their nation because they have refused to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, finding every excuse not to.

To not respond would lend credence to the nonsense - there is a stronger, more descriptive term which I shall not use - you have written, so



To respond with anything more would be pointless.

 

[RabbiO]

Above all your accusation against all Jews is amateurish and unfair.

Thanks.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thanks.

No, do not thank me. I thank you for defending Christians against something which moves us closer to irrelevance. Jews are a timeless rock that will be here no matter what happens to us. Thank you for your gracious willingness to discuss this and to help us to understand.

 

[Seven headed beast]

Why would they stop being Jews? The Jews were God's chosen people. Jesus never told anyone to stop being a Jew. He told them to follow God's laws, which were the same laws given to the Jews.

The issue that no one has realized is that Jesus was a patsy.

He was a charismatic and had ideas that he offered to individuals in his home, but when Jesus was warned by Pilate he got the message and promptly retired and movedcto the shore of the Mediterranean and took up fishing,. He did marry and had children and a long life. He was neither divine nor the son of God

It was the followers that realized they could profit by going out on the Judean tour circuit. The bigger the man the bigger the denarius. Before you know it he was walking on water.

Then there is the way the bible is written. It is laid out in hermetic script. This means is can be literal, or it can be metaphor or allegory or any combination of the three. It can weave back and forth at random.

The truth is that the biblical "nation of Israel" is metaphor for the united states. The reasoning for this that we are Israel because of the myriad different sects of Christianity are the "twelve tribes" and that the Catholics are represented by "Ephraim" as both are "dark". The notion of Judah is representational of the Mormons, because the neither of these groups ascend. The Jews do not possess a true dogma. And the Mormons do not ascend because they are malevolent. They cannot qualify because you must have your Akashic record in the light. while there he never been a single Mormon ascended I do know that at least one Jewish person has ascended. This was Jerry Lewis because of the good karmic movement due to the bizaillions of telethon dollars he gave muscular dystrophy.

This means that the son of God is from the US. California, to be precise. Sacramento most recently.

Jesus never did have any notion of what happened as the council of Nicea was in AD325-328

 

[Rival]

The issue that no one has realized is that Jesus was a patsy.

He was a charismatic and had ideas that he offered to individuals in his home, but when Jesus was warned by Pilate he got the message and promptly retired and movedcto the shore of the Mediterranean and took up fishing,. He did marry and had children and a long life. He was neither divine nor the son of God

It was the followers that realized they could profit by going out on the Judean tour circuit. The bigger the man the bigger the denarius. Before you know it he was walking on water.

Then there is the way the bible is written. It is laid out in hermetic script. This means is can be literal, or it can be metaphor or allegory or any combination of the three. It can weave back and forth at random.

The truth is that the biblical "nation of Israel" is metaphor for the united states. The reasoning for this that we are Israel because of the myriad different sects of Christianity are the "twelve tribes" and that the Catholics are represented by "Ephraim" as both are "dark". The notion of Judah is representational of the Mormons, because the neither of these groups ascend. The Jews do not possess a true dogma. And the Mormons do not ascend because they are malevolent. They cannot qualify because you must have your Akashic record in the light. while there he never been a single Mormon ascended I do know that at least one Jewish person has ascended. This was Jerry Lewis because of the good karmic movement due to the bizaillions of telethon dollars he gave muscular dystrophy.

This means that the son of God is from the US. California, to be precise. Sacramento most recently.

Jesus never did have any notion of what happened as the council of Nicea was in AD325-328

What the ****.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Most crazy idea I have seen.

 

[Deeje]

Propaganda, much?

The Greek scriptures are propaganda?

The prophet is very sensitive to what we consider to be small grievances and small infractions. They view the tiniest thing as an enormous evil. You should not be judging the religious leaders. This is about Jesus and does not give a human view of the leaders. All people are evil compared to God. Just be thankful nobody is comparing you with God today.

"The prophet"?.....Are you referring to Jesus Christ? Was that all he was?

This is what he said about the religious leaders of his time....remembering that he was Jewish.

13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ——
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Moreover, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and whoever swears by the temple is swearing by it and by the One inhabiting it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by the One sitting on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have shared with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore, you are testifying against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.
33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna? 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:13-39)

Do you take issue with what Jesus said about them? Was it too harsh...or was it pretty accurate?
That generation was fit for "gehenna" according to Jesus.

Amateurish. The entire set of prophets talks about purification. Israel gets purified continually throughout its existence. Its not some big surprise, and you are really just pointing fingers.

They aren't my fingers pointing at anyone.

Jesus pronounced the sentence....as a nation they abandoned God by rejecting his Messiah and by continually breaking his covenant with them. God then "abandoned" their house, "leaving it desolate".

Do you imagine that the proud Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were going to allow history to be written in a way that would give credence to this 'impostor'? Jesus' words in the last verse really say it all...."For I tell you, from now on you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’” (CJB)

This is something the Jews as a nation have never done....not to this day. Individuals have certainly come to accept Jesus as Messiah. Messianic Jews number into the hundreds of thousands today. As of last year there were 262 Messianic congregations in Israel. Why do you think these Jews finally accepted Jesus? Are these accepted as 'Jewish' by traditional Jews?
I have noted that they will never be called 'Christians' however.

First, Matthew has like 20 'Fullfillments' of scripture that are not fulfillments. He's not exactly Dr. Fulfill.

According to whom? Not biased sources surely? Jesus fulfilled more messianic prophesies than anyone before or since.
He also performed some amazing miracles, had the ability to read minds and was able to empower his apostles to heal the sick just by the mention of his name. He must have been pretty convincing as a threat to the status quo, because the big fellas wanted him dead. They held an illegal trial with false witnesses and when the Roman Governor found him innocent of any charge deserving death, they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason. If he was not the Christ, then why go to such lengths to get rid of him? This is all recorded in scripture. Should we ignore it?

Secondly, Jewish people were the most advanced culture of their time, treating one another kindly and well spoken of by other cultures.

As of when in history are we speaking here? What has this got to do with the topic? I have no personal issues with Jewish people...they are as advanced in culture and nice to their neighbors (except the Palestinians perhaps) as anyone else. But in the global picture, they are also blood-spillers like any other nation. (Isaiah 1:15)

Top. You are taking Matthew way, way beyond its purpose by using it to define Jews and cast aspersions.

These are not my aspersions. It isn't personal.....its scriptural. We can accept the scriptures as they are written or we can reject them. Who is telling the truth and who has been misled? Isn't that the real question?

Again, just be glad you aren't being compared against God. Nobody stands up to that kind of rigor, and remember that Jesus here is pointing out faults that you would never have noticed in such mild and selfless people. Above all your accusation against all Jews is amateurish and unfair.

Jesus' description of the Jewish leaders of his day was not exactly flattering.
No one is saying that any human can compare with God....what the Christian scriptures advocate is imitating Jesus. He told the truth unashamedly and he did not accept the oral traditions of the egotistical leaders of the people back then. He exposed them for the hypocrites that they were. Do you doubt Jesus' description of them? He was very specific.

Jews have one version of the story and Christians have another...just as the Palestinians have one version of the current story whilst Israel has another. God knows who is right....he will be the judge of all.

 

[Deeje]

To not respond would lend credence to the nonsense - there is a stronger, more descriptive term which I shall not use - you have written, so



To respond with anything more would be pointless.

It isn't personal RabbiO. This is a conflict that has been going on now for almost 2,000 years.
We each have a side we have taken based on what we have read in scripture and how those scriptures have been interpreted for us by our teachers. Its our choice as to what we will believe.

 

[omega2xx]

It's not a fact. It's your belief.

Then prove it is not a fact. If you cant prove it is not, it is your belief.

I've also reported you for your rule 8 violation with it.

I couldn't care less.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We each have a side we have taken based on what we have read in scripture and how those scriptures have been interpreted for us by our teachers.

And one led to antisemitism, replacement theology, pogroms, and gas chambers.

 

[Deeje]

And one led to antisemitism, replacement theology, pogroms, and gas chambers.

And any mention of a conflict with Judaism evokes this kind of response.

I am a JW and my brothers and sisters shared the concentration camps with the Jews in Nazi Germany. Hitler hated both of us so please don't talk to me about antisemitism......many of my own brethren were executed because they would not support that antisemitic regime.

 

[Deeje]

My suggestion is not to laugh when someone is humbled, because the only reason its not happening to you is that no attention is focused on you. In the sunshine are two candles going to outshine one? In fact facing the sun you won't be able to count candles. Everything is simply too bright. Don't count candles. A person can try all day to be good and not be as good as one of the Pharisees Jesus criticizes. Its the whole point of his vicious verbal stripes.

Nice emotional appeal, but this has nothing to do with reality. No one is laughing...least of all God.
The Jews as a nation blew it. "Abandoned" means exactly what it says. Do you see God's blessing on Israel in any way at the present time? When Israel obeyed their God, they prospered in the extreme, according to scripture. But when they disobeyed him, he left them to their enemies.

Only those who come to accept the Christ as their Messiah will ever get to benefit from the Messianic promises. Jesus is "the way, the truth and the life"....Jesus said..."NO ONE comes to the Father except through me". Where does that leave the Jews or anyone else who rejects Christ?

Give me one prediction made in the whole Tanach of something Jesus will do that is fulfilled in Matthew. You cannot, because none of Matthew's fulfillments are of predictions. In fact nothing is predicted to happen that Jesus does.

OK...there are quite a few predictions.

Messiah would be of the tribe of Judah. (Genesis 49:10; Matthew 1:2-16)
He was to be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-23)
Babies killed after his birth (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
Someone like Elijah was to prepare the way for him. (Malachi 4:5; Matthew 3:1-3)
Zeal for God's House would consume him. (Psalm 69:9; Matthew 21:12-13)
Entry into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey. (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-9)
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:31)

There are a stack more if you want to see them.....

His death is in type like the death of Israel when it is conquered by Babylon or when it is enslaved in Egypt, but there is no prediction. His death for three days is similar to the time period that a sacrifice may be consumed, but there is nothing predicting he will be dead for three days.

I am not sure where you are getting your 'facts', but none of them appear to be correct. Jesus himself predicted how long he would remain in the tomb before his resurrection....

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

It was also predicted that not a single bone of his body would be broken. (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33, 36)
The two hung alongside Jesus had their legs broken, to hasten death, but Jesus had already expired.

In fact he fulfills all the messianic prophecies sometime in the far future, provided his disciples love one another; but none of them have literally been fulfilled by him yet. Search far and wide, but you will not find Jesus here on the planet. He's not here.

Why would you expect to find him here? He said he was returning to his God and Father in heaven. (John 20:17)
He has most certainly fulfilled many prophesies already, and there are more to come.

One way to look at it is he is the messiah in the future at the time when all the goals of the hope of Israel are fulfilled. Another way to look at it is to say his kingdom is not of this epoch, so we have to keep waiting and working and patiently enduring.

Fleshly Israel had over 1500 years to get their act together and become that "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" that was prophesied for the future under Messiah's rule....but they could not remain faithful to their covenant. God's patience with them, ran out. So once his promise to Abraham was honored, he divorced that unfaithful nation and chose a new nation to serve his interest on earth. These were the followers of Jesus Christ. Fleshly Israel are no longer any part of God's plans.

Individuals from that nation can be welcomed into the new arrangement, but the law is no longer a millstone around anyone's neck. Mindless ritual is no longer a part of God's worship. Christ's sacrifice has freed sinful humans of that heavy obligation. Animal sacrifices ceased after Jesus paid our ransom and released us from the burden of perpetual sacrifice.

If the Jews were still God's people, then the temple would have been rebuilt. It never has.....do you know why?

That is right, and his description of the best, holiest most conscientious people of his time was for the purpose of pointing out that all people have sinned and fallen short. Its the basis for atonement but not a description of Jews and Pharisees.

And yet Jesus singled out the Pharisees and the sadducees....not as a general description of everyone...but as pertaining only to them. Who else did he ever tell that they were 'not going to escape the judgment of gehenna'? (Matthew 23:33) The only others to fail the test of faith are mentioned at the end when Jesus carries out the sentence of eternal death on satan, his demons and all the "goats" who have followed them into opposition to Jesus and his incoming Kingdom.

Matthew
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left........
41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"

This is a destiny that no one can escape if they have failed to acknowledge the Christ. And even those who do acknowledge the Christ as their "Lord" are not guaranteed acceptance either......they have to be obedient to Jesus in everything. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And any mention of a conflict with Judaism evokes this kind of response.

I am a JW and my brothers and sisters shared the concentration camps with the Jews in Nazi Germany. Hitler hated both of us so please don't talk to me about antisemitism......many of my own brethren were executed because they would not support that antisemitic regime.

It is to their everlasting credit that they (along with other Christians) rose above the vile antisemitism that permeated early Christianity. You demean their actions by disassociating yourself from the very thing that they opposed - often to their peril. Worse, that you would seek to protectively wrap yourself in their valor is more than a little disgusting.

 

[MHz]

Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

Considering the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes are the only members of the 12 tribes to survive the first 6 trumps why would a member of the Church want to give up seeing the arrival in person to become somebody who has to be resurrected to be with Christ.

Eze:39:21-23:
And I will set my glory among the heathen,
and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed,
and my hand that I have laid upon them.
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

The OT Laws lasted until 3 1/2 years after the cross and in Acts:10 Gentile food was made clean and the other Laws that are not part of the 10 Commandments were voided.

Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:

Ac:10:14-16:
But Peter said,
Not so,
Lord;
for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice spake unto him again the second time,
What God hath cleansed,
that call not thou common.
This was done thrice:
and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

 

[Deeje]

It is to their everlasting credit that they (along with other Christians) rose above the vile antisemitism that permeated early Christianity.

Do you think Jesus was anti-Semitic or do you think he was trying to correct some arrogant Jewish leaders who forgot how to serve God's people like Moses did?

The track record of the Jewish leaders in taking the people off track spiritually is all recorded in your scriptures. Jesus lamented that the prophets sent by God to correct his people in the past were often put to death. I see Jesus that way too. They did not often heed the prophets, but largely silenced them or ignored them. This is what your scriptures tell us.
You may not agree, and that is your prerogative.

You demean their actions by disassociating yourself from the very thing that they opposed - often to their peril. Worse, that you would seek to protectively wrap yourself in their valor is more than a little disgusting.

My brethren stood up to the Nazi hate machine and were a credit to their God and to their faith. However, they were not supporters of Judaism any more than they were supporters of the church behind which Hitler hid his heinous activities.

Christianity is not anti-Semitic, it is against falsehood of any description. Jesus called the shots as he experienced them, having grown up in a devout Jewish family. He was not on the outside looking in, but on the inside being appalled. He knew what the scriptures taught and he was not seeing compliance....he was seeing oral traditions being substituted for God's law.

Telling an inconvenient truth is not the same as being anti-Semitic. I hope you can discern the difference.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

The Greek scriptures are propaganda?

YES!

Simple Roman propaganda.

That being said, some gems made it thru the editors mangling of testimonies to fit their pagan concepts.

Sermon on the Mount, may be the only genuine teachings of a Jew in the so-called NT.