Jesus was Mithra Re-Hashed?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Where are you getting that from? There's no Christian tradition that Mary went out into the dessert, or even the desert, to give birth.

Nor is there a tradition that Mary was a rock.

 

[logician]

There are many similarities between the Jesus tale and a number of religiious mythos. Unfortunately, some people think the Jesus tale must be true, with no real supporting evidence, millions have died because believers have pushed this myth onto many cultures.

 

[Booko]

There are many similarities between the Jesus tale and a number of religiious mythos. Unfortunately, some people think the Jesus tale must be true, with no real supporting evidence, millions have died because believers have pushed this myth onto many cultures.

Just a question to clarity, by "the Jesus tale must be true" do you mean the details are accurate, or that such a person even existed?

 

[logician]

Just a question to clarity, by "the Jesus tale must be true" do you mean the details are accurate, or that such a person even existed?

This is kind of a gray area, but my contention is that a man that fit the description of the NT gospel Jesus never existed, i.e. the gospels were works of fiction, not a record of history. As works of fiction they drew heavily on previously existent religion mythology of other gods such as Osiris, Attis, and Mithras. There could have multiple men named Jesus, and other people besides running around claiming to be god at that time, but their resemblance to the bibilical tale was virtually nil.

 

[Booko]

This is kind of a gray area, but my contention is that a man that fit the description of the NT gospel Jesus never existed, i.e. the gospels were works of fiction, not a record of history. As works of fiction they drew heavily on previously existent religion mythology of other gods such as Osiris, Attis, and Mithras. There could have multiple men named Jesus, and other people besides running around claiming to be god at that time, but their resemblance to the bibilical tale was virtually nil.

This does not answer my question, Wanderer.

Did someone exist who provided in some way the inspiration for the figure we refer to as "Jesus." Whatever other legendary tales may have been put in later, was there an itenerant preacher in existence in Galilee during this period who provided the foundation for "Jesus"?

Please just answer yes or no, and then I'll know how to proceed in answering. Thanks.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Romans seemed to have no doubt that Jesus existed nor did his followers.
the Gospels were written near enough to his life time to be good evidence, so are the writings of Paul who was a contemporary, though they never met in person.

Jesus teaching were quite clearly a new departure for the age and show no evidence that he was brought up knowing more than the Jewish faith, in any detail.

Any connection with earlier religions came to it after Christ's death and during the early formation of a practical form of the Church.
I suspect all peoples have added something of their past culture and religions during their own conversions. so it is not surprising some similarities exist.

 

[logician]

"
the Gospels were written near enough to his life time to be good evidence, so are the writings of Paul who was a contemporary, though they never met in person."

This is untrue, the gospels were written much after the supposed time of Christ, all the authors unknown, with Mark, the first gospel written, not being written until 70 to 90 CE, thus making all of them hearsay at best. Check out

Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

for much more detail.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Qur'an describes mary leaving her home and going into the "woods". There she meets the angel, conceives the child by the will of God and delivers the infant. There are references to her holding on to a tree to keep to her feet.

When she comes back down from the trees, she is carrying an infant and the people challenge her chastity. At that point the infant in her arms speaks and that speech quiets the accusations against Mary.

Regards,
Scott

 

[logician]

"
Please just answer yes or no, and then I'll know how to proceed in answering. Thanks."

No.

 

[Quagmire]

This is kind of a gray area, but my contention is that a man that fit the description of the NT gospel Jesus never existed, i.e. the gospels were works of fiction, not a record of history. As works of fiction they drew heavily on previously existent religion mythology of other gods such as Osiris, Attis, and Mithras. There could have multiple men named Jesus, and other people besides running around claiming to be god at that time, but their resemblance to the bibilical tale was virtually nil.

I think this is a pretty reasonable theory Wanderer, ie, that the Jesus of the Gospels is a colage put together from some of the sources that you mention as well as the writings of Helel (a Rabbi that lived a generation or so before the timeframe the gospels are set in) and even Josephus;

The story of the workmen in Luke (?) shows up almost verbatim in writings attributed to Helel which, as I've said, date to before the alledged ministry of Jesus of N.

Josephus mentions two Jesuses (Jesi?), both of whom bear some resemblence to the Gospel Jeus and both of whom lived during the period just prior to the destruction of the temple in 70AD;

One is described as a religious leader who aquired a following of "saliors (fishermen?) and poor people.

The other was an insurgent who was scourged (flogged) until "the bones of his back were laid raw yet he never uttered a sound".

(note to Wanderrer; I'm way to busy to go looking for the exact dates, quotes, and details right now but I thought I'd give you a cpl leads if you want 'em).

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

"
the Gospels were written near enough to his life time to be good evidence, so are the writings of Paul who was a contemporary, though they never met in person."

This is untrue, the gospels were written much after the supposed time of Christ, all the authors unknown, with Mark, the first gospel written, not being written until 70 to 90 CE, thus making all of them hearsay at best. Check out

Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

for much more detail.

Do you not believe any thing your Grand father wrote or told you...? there were still people living from Christ's time when the Gospels were written... Paul was certainly alive when he wrote his epistles. It was by no means ancient history they were writing about.

The probing mind article is of course trying to prove a negative... not something any reputable academic would ever try to do.

 

[Popeyesays]

Using the probing mind as an authority on Christianity is rather like using Christian anti-Muslim web sites as authorities on Islam.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"

Did someone exist who provided in some way the inspiration for the figure we refer to as "Jesus." Whatever other legendary tales may have been put in later, was there an itenerant preacher in existence in Galilee during this period who provided the foundation for "Jesus"?

Please just answer yes or no, and then I'll know how to proceed in answering. Thanks.

No.

... a sadly unreasonable faith-based assertion.

 

[Booko]

"
Please just answer yes or no, and then I'll know how to proceed in answering. Thanks."

No.

Very well.

By those standards, the vast majority of your ancestors never existed either.

So I guess you should go *poof* out of existence as well, since your forebears did not exist to spawn you.

 

[logician]

Very well.

By those standards, the vast majority of your ancestors never existed either.

So I guess you should go *poof* out of existence as well, since your forebears did not exist to spawn you.

That's simply not true, there is plenty of contemporary (to his time) historical evidence that Julius Caesar existed, for example.

From the website

Did Julius Caesar Exist? – Yes But No evidence of Jesus Christ
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"<H4>[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unlike the mythical Jesus Christ, we know what Caesar looked like and we have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Artifacts confirm his life and death, as do his successors. Caesar established a style of government – and a calendar – which endured for centuries. "[/FONT]</H4>[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ALSO[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Who Says?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who would have noted anything "Jesus of Nazareth" said before heemerged as a bona fide spiritual leader? Yet Luke (2.48,49) quotes the godman at the age of 12 in the "temple incident". [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ok, so let's grant that after her son made the big time Mary becomes the proud mum, full of anecdotes about her illustrious offspring ... Maybe she even reminisced about traipsing off to Bethlehem, even Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But Mary isn't everywhere. Matthew 3 reports dialogue between the godman and John the Baptist (let alone a voice from heaven!) in the wilderness of Judaea. Only when the Baptist gets imprisoned does JC choose his disciples so they wouldn't have been present either. So where does this little story originate, other than in the fertile mind of the gospel writer?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ok, let's concede "unknown and unstated bystanders" run off to tell the tale ... In fact, we have to rely on such hearsay again and again: JC's night time chat with Nicodemus, his conversation with a Samaritan woman, when his disciples are off shopping, etc., etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But we're still not out of the woods. On several occasions the gospel writers quite specifically report Jesus’ conversations when neither they nor any other humans were present.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who would have had the faintest idea of what Jesus said when he was on his own? For example, chapter 17 of the Gospel of John is entirely taken up with a monologue addressed by a solitary Jesus to God himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Matthew (4.3,10) tells of JC in the wilderness and having conversations with Satan. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now how would Matthew know what was said? Are we to imagine Jesus reminisced, "Hey guys, one time I was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights and guess who showed up ... ?"[/FONT]

Let's face it, the gospels are works of fiction.

 

[Booko]

That's simply not true, there is plenty of contemporary (to his time) historical evidence that Julius Caesar existed, for example.

Pfffft. Get real. There's no comparison between the leader of the Roman Empire and an itinerant preacher in a backwater place like Judea.

Show me the proof of the existence of Naughtius Maximum, the obscure Roman centurion serving in Gaul.

Sheesh, what a sorry excuse for an argument.

Let's face it, the gospels are works of fiction.

Yeah, just like the Qu'ran is, and Muhammad never existed either.

History is so full of examples of huge religious movements being based on completely fictional characters.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Mithra a Persian god of light introduced to the Romans before Jesus was ever written about and yet there are a number of striking similarities between the two. For instance Mithra's birthday was on the 25th of December and as we all know Jesus was born on different date than this, though some claim it as "localization" like other things including many traditions celebrated on Christmas even though this is blasphemous according to the OT:

Jer 10:2-5
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Lev 20:23,26
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

There's also some peculiarities in the NT as well that seem to be adopted from pagan traditions:

John 6:53-54
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Now in the OT it says something quite differently and without the OT the NT would be rather worthless now wouldn't it?

Lev 17:10,12
And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth(consumes) any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat(consume) blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Now are we to believe that God who is very clear about the consumption of flesh and blood decided to change his mind? Now though in church it's all iconic but then again the OT states symbolic sin is still sin and even Jesus says this again in the NT. As well as the adoption of other customs is strictly forbidden.

Another coincidence between Jesus and Mithra are that both are born from virgin mothers and born out in the dessert. Now both take place is the same region and both virgin mothers specifically WENT out into the dessert. There is also the recognition of Sunday as the holy day even though Saturday is supposed to be the actual seventh day of the week. Mithra also required its members to be baptized as well and Mithra himself was resurrected. You also have the common theme of Sheppard and his flock in both religions.
We also have the curious thing of Mithra being a sacrifice as well:

"I created him" Ahura Mazda declares to Zoroaster, "to be as worthy of sacrifice and as worthy of prayer as myself"

Hmmm sounds a bit like another fellow we know.

IMO Jesus didn't rehash anything, He was simply the fulfillment of the types and shadows that had preceded Him. :angel2:

 

[logician]

1. Pfffft. Get real. There's no comparison between the leader of the Roman Empire and an itinerant preacher in a backwater place like Judea.

2. Show me the proof of the existence of Naughtius Maximum, the obscure Roman centurion serving in Gaul.




3. Yeah, just like the Qu'ran is, and Muhammad never existed either.

History is so full of examples of huge religious movements being based on completely fictional characters.

1. Hmmm, based upon the works he did, and the religion that followed, you do then admit that evidence for the existence of Jesus is scant at best?

2. What major religion is based upon him, and who insists that he existed?

3. Muhammad is a poor example, for though there may be more historical evidence of his existence than the supposed Jesus, his life is certainly shrouded in much mystery.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Overwrite]

Christianity is an adaptation of Mithraism welded with the Druidic principles of the Culdees, some Egyptian elements (the pre-Christian Book of Revelation was originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis), Greek philosophy and various aspects of Hinduism.

Dr Constantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874)

Taken from this article:

NEXUS: Forged Origins of the New Testament

(I've posted this link in another thread but it seemed to be pertinent to both so forgive the repetition)

 

[logician]

Taken from this article:

NEXUS: Forged Origins of the New Testament

(I've posted this link in another thread but it seemed to be pertinent to both so forgive the repetition)

Interesting article, wich is supported by the near total lack of any substantive historical evidence that a Hesus Krishna ever existed.