Jesus Will Never Return

[Kemosloby]

Many! Thousands of Jews were crucified in the First Century by the Romans if you read the book "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus. You speak of Jesus as if he was he only Jew to be crucified. Wake up from under the blankets of Christian preconceived notions. These notions won't let you enjoy freedom of mind.

As the passover lamb. There were two other Jews crucified on either side of Jesus. All of them by the Romans because the Jews kept their hands clean having the Romans do their dirty work for them.

 

[Ben Avraham]

As the passover lamb. There were two other Jews crucified on either side of Jesus. All of them by the Romans because the Jews kept their hands clean having the Romans do their dirty work for them.

God Almighty have mercy on you all! I just said that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in Israel and you see only Jesus and the other two thieves. The Jews had no interest in having Jesus crucified. How could the Jews have any part in the crucifixion of Jesus when the main reason why Jesus had come was to confirm the Law down to the letter if you read Mat. 5:17-19? You need to use a little of Logic.

 

[Kemosloby]

God Almighty have mercy on you all! I just said that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in Israel and you see only Jesus and the other two thieves. The Jews had no interest in having Jesus crucified. How could the Jews have any part in the crucifixion of Jesus when the main reason why Jesus had come was to confirm the Law down to the letter if you read Mat. 5:17-19? You need to use a little of Logic.

Well you had better go keep your law perfectly then...

 

[Beth Stitely]

A poster once told me that, in his opinion, the Second Coming of Jesus would happen only when--through entirely natural causes--our planet be on the verge of destruction, and not before.

Hi Ben!...nah...that doesn't sound right...did the poster have biblical references?

 

[rusra02]

Rusra, Jesus could have never been the Messiah; not as an individual, I mean. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever if you read Jeremiah 31:35-37. As a People, I said. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

Daniel 9:25-27 noted when the Messiah would appear and foretold also that he would die. "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."
Notice also the Law covenant would remain in effect until the end of the seventy weeks [of years] but then no longer be in force. God never abandoned Israel entirely, because the foundations of the Christian congregation were all members of natural Israel. But only a small remnant proved worthy of God's continued favor, IMO; only those exercising faith in the Messiah or Christ.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Daniel 9:25-27 noted when the Messiah would appear and foretold also that he would die. "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."
Notice also the Law covenant would remain in effect until the end of the seventy weeks [of years] but then no longer be in force. God never abandoned Israel entirely, because the foundations of the Christian congregation were all members of natural Israel. But only a small remnant proved worthy of God's continued favor, IMO; only those exercising faith in the Messiah or Christ.

The text has nothing to do with your so-called Messiah or Christ. I told you already that the Messiah cannot be an individual. Then, there is no prophecy in the whole of the Tanach about Jesus. You cannot use the Tanach to promote the doctrines of the NT. Besides, Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT which, BTW, he never even dreamed would ever rise. Every thing in the NT was written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul. Not a single Jew wrote a page of the NT as Jews would not write against their own Faith.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hi Ben!...nah...that doesn't sound right...did the poster have biblical references?

Hi Beth, the poster is not relevant. My point here is not to discuss about the poster but about the return of Jesus which you believe will happen and, according to Psalms 49:12,20, he lyes in the eternal home of the dead; the only thing eternal about man if you ask me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well you had better go keep your law perfectly then...

Well, that's what Jesus said, that to achieve salvation, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. Since by nature we cannot do every thing perfect, we have been presented with the provision to get things right with the Lord, so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow through repentance, the chance to make reparations and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[soulsurvivor]

Jesus will never return.

A poster once told me that, in his opinion, the Second Coming of Jesus would happen only when--through entirely natural causes--our planet be on the verge of destruction, and not before.

Well, I said, I am glad to hear that because, in that case, Jesus will never return because, soon after the Flood the Lord promised Noah that He would never again allow another universal destruction to destroy Mankind as long as the natural laws function properly. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Jeremiah read that text and said that as long as the natural laws function properly Israel will never cease as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:36)

Jesus must have read those two texts; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and completed the info that salvation comes from the Jews as he meant universal catastrophe. (John 4:22)

Abraham went further and said that as long as there is a minyan of ten righteous, universal destruction would never happen. (Gen. 18:32) After all this, do you still think Jesus will need to come back? Hardly! Besides, Jesus' own gospel which was the Tanach, once dead, no one will ever return if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

Jesus has promised in the NT in multiple places that he will return. So it does not matter what the OT says, he will definitely return.

But according to your theory, does this mean Moshiach is not coming either?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The text has nothing to do with your so-called Messiah or Christ. I told you already that the Messiah cannot be an individual. Then, there is no prophecy in the whole of the Tanach about Jesus. You cannot use the Tanach to promote the doctrines of the NT. Besides, Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT which, BTW, he never even dreamed would ever rise. Every thing in the NT was written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul. Not a single Jew wrote a page of the NT as Jews would not write against their own Faith.

I'm sure we've had this dicussion before, but I'll repeat my point in the hope that it will have an impact!
Your position is not orthodox. To say that the Messiah cannot be an individual goes against rabbinic teaching. The ancient writings teach that Israel is BOTH an individual (as head) and a people (as body).
There is a passage in the Midrash on Psalm 2:7 in which the unity of Israel and the Messiah is indicated.
There are also many passages that clearly allude to an individual and not a people. Take, for example, Zechariah 9:9, 'behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.' This is messianically attributed in the Talmud (Sanh.98a)
Isaiah 52:13 is another such passage. 'How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!' This passage is applied in the Targum expressly to the Messiah as an individual.
I'm surprised that orthodox Jews haven't already put you straight on this point!

 

[Ben Avraham]

I'm sure we've had this dicussion before, but I'll repeat my point in the hope that it will have an impact! Your position is not orthodox. To say that the Messiah cannot be an individual goes against rabbinic teaching. The ancient writings teach that Israel is BOTH an individual (as head) and a people (as body). There is a passage in the Midrash on Psalm 2:7 in which the unity of Israel and the Messiah is indicated. There are also many passages that clearly allude to an individual and not a people. Take, for example, Zechariah 9:9, 'behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.' This is messianically attributed in the Talmud (Sanh.98a) Isaiah 52:13 is another such passage. 'How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!' This passage is applied in the Targum expressly to the Messiah as an individual. I'm surprised that orthodox Jews haven't already put you straight on this point!

My position that Israel is the Messiah is based on the Tanach, not in Midrashim. Have you ever heard about Prophet Habakkuk 3:13? The text says that "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. What is published in the Talmud about the Messiah, Jesus was never in the mind of the Rabbis who participated in the writing of the Talmud. Any thought about Jesus as the Messiah is only in the minds of people intoxicated with Christian preconceived notions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus has promised in the NT in multiple places that he will return. So it does not matter what the OT says, he will definitely return.

But according to your theory, does this mean Moshiach is not coming either?

Moshiach has already come three times. First, from Egypt when Moses, a Messianic leader guided the Messiah back into the Promised Land. The second time was from Babylon when Cyrus, according to Isaiah 45:1 won the title of a Messianic leader for decreeing freedom to the Messiah to leave and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. The third and last time around is now when the Messiah organized the Third Commonwealth in 1948 and are still returning from the four corners of the earth; although many of the Messiah are still back in the Diaspora.

 

[danieldemol]

Hi Beth, the poster is not relevant. My point here is not to discuss about the poster but about the return of Jesus which you believe will happen and, according to Psalms 49:12,20, he lyes in the eternal home of the dead; the only thing eternal about man if you ask me.

Psalm 49:12 is about the unrighteous, it says that the righteous would be redeemed from the grave, so you might say Jesus is in the eternal home of the living.

That being said He will never literally return, His return is simply One of similar spiritual station, the same way John was "if ye would have it" the return of Elijah according to the Gospel.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Moshiach has already come three times. First, from Egypt when Moses, a Messianic leader guided the Messiah back into the Promised Land. The second time was from Babylon when Cyrus, according to Isaiah 45:1 won the title of a Messianic leader for decreeing freedom to the Messiah to leave and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. The third and last time around is now when the Messiah organized the Third Commonwealth in 1948 and are still returning from the four corners of the earth; although many of the Messiah are still back in the Diaspora.

Seriously?! I had no idea that Jews (even a few) considered Moses to be the same as Moshiach - can you give me a reference/link?

And Cyrus (a non-Jew) was also Moshiach? And who is this person in 1948 - what is his name?

So all those Jews waiting for Moshiach are waiting in vain, because Moshiach has already come and gone?

Your information above is interesting as well as astounding! Thanks very much!

 

[rusra02]

The text has nothing to do with your so-called Messiah or Christ. I told you already that the Messiah cannot be an individual. Then, there is no prophecy in the whole of the Tanach about Jesus. You cannot use the Tanach to promote the doctrines of the NT. Besides, Jesus never had any thing to do with the NT which, BTW, he never even dreamed would ever rise. Every thing in the NT was written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul. Not a single Jew wrote a page of the NT as Jews would not write against their own Faith.

I think the Scriptures I referenced speak for themselves. The Jewish nation as a whole rejected the Messiah, and in turn they were rejected by God, IMO. But faithful Jews were taken into the new covenant, along with people of the nations. Thus, IMO, God fulfilled his promise to Abraham; "And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’" (Genesis 22:18)

 

[MJFlores]

Jesus will never return.

A poster once told me that, in his opinion, the Second Coming of Jesus would happen only when--through entirely natural causes--our planet be on the verge of destruction, and not before.

Well, I said, I am glad to hear that because, in that case, Jesus will never return because, soon after the Flood the Lord promised Noah that He would never again allow another universal destruction to destroy Mankind as long as the natural laws function properly. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Jeremiah read that text and said that as long as the natural laws function properly Israel will never cease as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:36)

Jesus must have read those two texts; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and completed the info that salvation comes from the Jews as he meant universal catastrophe. (John 4:22)

Abraham went further and said that as long as there is a minyan of ten righteous, universal destruction would never happen. (Gen. 18:32) After all this, do you still think Jesus will need to come back? Hardly! Besides, Jesus' own gospel which was the Tanach, once dead, no one will ever return if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

I think I'd rather wait.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My position that Israel is the Messiah is based on the Tanach, not in Midrashim. Have you ever heard about Prophet Habakkuk 3:13? The text says that "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. What is published in the Talmud about the Messiah, Jesus was never in the mind of the Rabbis who participated in the writing of the Talmud. Any thought about Jesus as the Messiah is only in the minds of people intoxicated with Christian preconceived notions.

If you read my post you'll see that I have only quoted from the Tanach, and have not mentioned Jesus as Messiah.
You have stated that the Messiah could NOT be an INDIVIDUAL, and this is clearly not the case. The rabbinic writings of old contain many references to an individual Messiah. But this is not to discount the passages of scripture that indicate that Israel as a people is also like a son to God, and anointed. Which is why you should consider the possibility that Israel is BOTH an individual and a people, a shepherd and a flock.
Thus far, I have not mentioned Jesus as Messiah. But I am happy to take this one step at a time! First, you should acknowledge that there are references in the Tanach to an individual Messiah.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you read my post you'll see that I have only quoted from the Tanach, and have not mentioned Jesus as Messiah. You have stated that the Messiah could NOT be an INDIVIDUAL, and this is clearly not the case. The rabbinic writings of old contain many references to an individual Messiah. But this is not to discount the passages of scripture that indicate that Israel as a people is also like a son to God, and anointed. Which is why you should consider the possibility that Israel is BOTH an individual and a people, a shepherd and a flock. Thus far, I have not mentioned Jesus as Messiah. But I am happy to take this one step at a time! First, you should acknowledge that there are references in the Tanach to an individual Messiah.

HaShem did not say that Israel is to Me LIKE a son; He said, "Israel is MY Son" if you read Exodus 4:22,23. And you can read not only in the JPS Tanach but also in the KJV. Same translation. There can't be a reference in the Tanach to an individual Messiah. If there is, is to the Messiah King. That's another kind of anointed one.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think I'd rather wait.

While you wait, observe the Law and enjoy your life

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think the Scriptures I referenced speak for themselves. The Jewish nation as a whole rejected the Messiah, and in turn they were rejected by God, IMO. But faithful Jews were taken into the new covenant, along with people of the nations. Thus, IMO, God fulfilled his promise to Abraham; "And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’" (Genesis 22:18)

About that, you are right; only that by the offspring of Abraham, referenced here are those through Isaac the son of Sara if you read Genesis 17:21. Regarding rejection of the Messiah, how could have Israel rejected himself? Of course, I know you are talking about Jesus. No, we did not reject Jesus; we rather accepted him for what he really was, not for what Paul made him to be. (II Timothy 2:8) Christians are the ones who have rejected the real Jesus and accepted the "Christ" of Paul.