Jewish Messiah

[CMike]

Shabbetai Tzvi - My Jewish Learning

I must have missed where in this article my question is answered of which prophecies his followers believed he fulfilled. Have YOU read it?

Yes. He fulfilled none. Jesus fulfilled none.

His story is different than Jesus.

However it's the same idea.

Both falsely claimed to be the messiah.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't know what you're talking about...
Christianity has their own definition of a messiah, which has zero to do with the definition of messiah within Judaism and the Tanakh.

That is what I'm talking about. Is The Messiah something created by the Christians? They say he was a miracle working God/man, born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead etc. etc. All the great "proofs" in their Bible that says he was from God, like the Holy Spirit descending on him like a dove, a voice from heaven saying "this is my beloved son," the hundreds of "prophecies" he fulfilled, yet, in reality, he didn't fulfill any of the real Messianic prophecies? Now that's a miracle; how it has fooled so many people.

 

[CMike]

That is what I'm talking about. Is The Messiah something created by the Christians? They say he was a miracle working God/man, born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead etc. etc. All the great "proofs" in their Bible that says he was from God, like the Holy Spirit descending on him like a dove, a voice from heaven saying "this is my beloved son," the hundreds of "prophecies" he fulfilled, yet, in reality, he didn't fulfill any of the real Messianic prophecies? Now that's a miracle; how has fooled so many people.

Lol very true.

 

[Sees]

Great thread, this is a topic not considered often enough in Christian circles.

When I was a young, enthusiastic Christian who had begun doing more thorough research, it quickly seemed as though the authors/editors of the New Testament either did not understand Hebrew or were intentionally mistranslating and twisting words.

The lack of a virgin birth prophecy in the Tanakh was a sickening realization.

 

[metis]

Attributing any of Isaiah to Jesus is pretty bizarre theology when one takes a step back and looks at the woods and not just the trees. The basic theme of Isaiah is:
We were punished by not following the Law close enough.
A remnant was restored.
We were told we must then follow the Law much more closely.

Exactly how does Jesus and Christianity fit into that picture?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The messiah has not come yet. There have been no messiahs yet. There will be one.

The messiah will bring in the messianic age, and the prophesies will be completed during his lifetime.

Just curious... does it bother you at all that regular secular people view you as magic believers?

Not trying to start a fight. Just wondering how you feel about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not trying to start a fight.

Of course not. You're simply trying to demean ...

 

[Sees]

Without some element of magic, spirit/s, the supernatural, etc. we wouldn't be talking about religion but simply philosophy.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Of course not. You're simply trying to demean ...

I'd try to engage you on this, but I understand that you'll refuse to do so.

So I've just reported your insult.

 

[Shermana]

Yes. He fulfilled none. Jesus fulfilled none.

His story is different than Jesus.

However it's the same idea.

Both falsely claimed to be the messiah.

And Bar Kokhba fulfilled none.

My point is that there's none for a Messiah to fulfill in the first place.

The concept of "Fulfilling Messianic prophecy" as an individual is a completely fabricated concept that is not anywhere close to being necessarily true. It's a possible interpretation at best.

I am saying that it's perfectly legitimate to view the "messianic prophecies" simply as a series of events unfolding over years into a "Happily ever after" Climax after the "Suffering Servant" (who I will argue is NOT just a metaphor for Israel unless actual context is meaningless) is made the Guilt offering.

 

[CMike]

And Bar Kokhba fulfilled none.

My point is that there's none for a Messiah to fulfill in the first place.

The concept of "Fulfilling Messianic prophecy" as an individual is a completely fabricated concept that is not anywhere close to being necessarily true. It's a possible interpretation at best.

I am saying that it's perfectly legitimate to view the "messianic prophecies" simply as a series of events unfolding over years into a "Happily ever after" Climax after the "Suffering Servant" (who I will argue is NOT just a metaphor for Israel unless actual context is meaningless) is made the Guilt offering.

No it's not that's not what the prophesies say.

The messianic prophesies include an era where

There is world peace

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

One unified king of the jews

All the nations will worship one G-D

And the temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

The messiah will be the jewish leader when these events occur

Oncea again, it's not about the messiah (the person) it's about the messianic era.

 

[Akivah]

That is what I'm talking about. Is The Messiah something created by the Christians? They say he was a miracle working God/man, born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead etc. etc. All the great "proofs" in their Bible that says he was from God, like the Holy Spirit descending on him like a dove, a voice from heaven saying "this is my beloved son," the hundreds of "prophecies" he fulfilled, yet, in reality, he didn't fulfill any of the real Messianic prophecies? Now that's a miracle; how it has fooled so many people.

Yes, the definition and description you provided is 100% Christian.

The correct defintion within Judaism is completely different. Actually Christianity has come up with their own definitions of many words, such as sin, salvation, atonement, and god.

 

[Meeka_S]

I think I need more clarifications on it, please advice if you have something more.