Jewish Only: Studies

[CMike]

I think kids today have too much time on their hands.

Instead of college kids spending so much time drinking and partying I think they would be better served to be studying.

That's one reason many students outside of the US are so much better educated. They actually spend more time learning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We all have biases based on past experiences. I used the term 'impact factor', it has a precise meaning.

Excellent. Provide it and demonstrate that Einstein had a greater "impact factor" than Salk or Herzl or Buber. That or continue to tread water in a pool of circular reasoning.

 

[Avi1001]

excellent. Provide it and demonstrate that einstein had a greater "impact factor" than salk or herzl or buber. That or continue to tread water in a pool of circular reasoning.

Albert Einstein - 152,624 citations

Jonas Salk - no citations listed

Theodore Herzl - no citations listed

Martin Buber - no citations listed

Ref: Google Scholar

Please do some research to learn how impact is quantitatively assessed.

 

[Boyd]

Albert Einstein - 152,624 citations

Jonas Salk - none listed

Theodore Herzl - none listed

Martin Buber - none listed.

Ref: Google Scholar

Please do some research to learn how impact is quantitatively assessed.

I can say that through my studies, Einstein has been cited the least amount of times. And when he is cited, it generally is not to go in depth regarding his ideas. On the other hand, I have seen Buber, Herzl, and Salk discussed thoroughly. It really depends on the subject one studies.

 

[Avi1001]

This is a profoundly utilitarian argument, and like any utilitarian argument, it is deeply flawed.

Sometimes we need to think in a utilitarian manner. In the case when we cannot compete effectively with the rest of the world, we need to consider a paradigm shift. Does this sound like it might apply to our society ?

And, in my view, Einstein did more for Judaism than anyone since Moses Mendelson, and Einstein was essentially an atheist !

 

[Levite]

Sometimes we need to think in a utilitarian manner. In the case when we cannot compete effectively with the rest of the world, we need to consider a paradigm shift. Does this sound like it might apply to our society ?

And, in my view, Einstein did more for Judaism than anyone since Moses Mendelson, and Einstein was essentially an atheist !

Einstein did nothing for Judaism. He did a phenomenal amount for physics and the ability of the human race to understand the universe. While entirely admirable and worthy of every kind of respect, that has nothing to do with Judaism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And, in my view, Einstein did more for Judaism than anyone since Moses Mendelson, and Einstein was essentially an atheist !

That is preposterous.

Einstein did nothing for Judaism..

Exactly. Furthermore, to suggest that "Einstein did more for Judaism" than Brandeis or Buber or Heschel or Kaplan or Rosenzweig or Schneerson or Schechter or Steinsaltz or ... suggests, either, an embarrassing ignorance of Judaism or, worse, an irresponsible diminution of what the term means.

 

[Avi1001]

Einstein did nothing for Judaism. He did a phenomenal amount for physics and the ability of the human race to understand the universe. While entirely admirable and worthy of every kind of respect, that has nothing to do with Judaism.

Inspiring a whole generation of Jews to go into science and engineering is not a great outcome for Judaism ? I guess we have to agree to disagree on this.

Anyway, back to the OP, now a days it costs $60k per year to send students to private schools or out of state schools. If you want to spend this to have your child study Latin or Ancient Greek or Yiddush, good luck to you !

 

[CMike]

I see Avi's point.

Einstein did a tremendous amount for judaism because he was a jew who made probably the greatest scientific discoveries ever.

Often when I debate anti-semitic "people" I provide a list of jews' contribution to science and I ask them what their contribution was.

Jewish Contributions to Society

So yes Einstein did contribute greatly to judaism. There is also a jewish principle of Tikkun Olam, helping the world, which Einstein performed.

 

[Boyd]

Inspiring a whole generation of Jews to go into science and engineering is not a great outcome for Judaism ? I guess we have to agree to disagree on this.

Anyway, back to the OP, now a days it costs $60k per year to send students to private schools or out of state schools. If you want to spend this to have your child study Latin or Ancient Greek or Yiddush, good luck to you !

Maybe it is a great outcome for the Jewish people, but not Judaism itself. Einstein's ideas really did not further Judaism. They had little to do with Judaism. The fact that he was a Jew does not change this. I would say a scholar like E.P. Sanders, who isn't a Jew, has done more for Judaism then the ideas of Einstein.

Just because a person is a Jew, and does great things, doesn't mean it is furthering Judaism.

There are also other ways to have a child learn about Judaism besides sending them to a private school. There is the option of home schooling, which can prove to be very productive if other families are also included. One can also take more of an interest in education at home. After school programs are also another option.

Even better, we can push for education reform, in order to save the failing educational system, while also having the educational system focus on cultural backgrounds. By doing such, a fuller education can be achieved.

 

[metis]

Einstein did more than just science, and his belief in "Spinoza's God", whether one believes that his approach was correct or not, was a contribution to Judaism, as radical as it was and is.

However, there's no way to tell what Einstein's opinion on such a matter would be true today since he was proven wrong on two very important counts that relate to the issue of "creation", mainly his disbelieve in "quantum mechanics" and his belief in a "cosmic constant". These are not minor items as Einstein didn't believe that "God played at dice", thus refuting quantum mechanics, and his belief that the cosmic constant was that God made our universe size wise as is.

 

[Boyd]

Einstein did more than just science, and his belief in "Spinoza's God", whether one believes that his approach was correct or not, was a contribution to Judaism, as radical as it was and is.

However, there's no way to tell what Einstein's opinion on such a matter would be true today since he was proven wrong on two very important counts that relate to the issue of "creation", mainly his disbelieve in "quantum mechanics" and his belief in a "cosmic constant". These are not minor items as Einstein didn't believe that "God played at dice", thus refuting quantum mechanics, and his belief that the cosmic constant was that God made our universe size wise as is.

Can you find religious work on Judaism though that cites Einstein? Einstein was not working to further Judaism. He was a secular Jew. He labeled himself as an agnostic. He even states in his autobiography that he lost his faith in early childhood. He simply was not trying to further Judaism, and does not seem to have practiced it in any way. He may have been a Jew, but his religious beliefs do not appear to be such.

 

[CMike]

The point is that because of his massive scientitic achievements and being a jew he furthered judaism in two major areas

1) Representing jews. The fact that he made these achievements and was a jew, made him a great representative of judaism. In light, it makes jews as a whole look good.

I don't know if you looked around lately, but there many many people and groups that hate jews, just because they are jews.

2) Tikkun Olam. He did one of the major tenents of Judaism which is to help the world.

 

[metis]

Can you find religious work on Judaism though that cites Einstein? Einstein was not working to further Judaism. He was a secular Jew. He labeled himself as an agnostic. He even states in his autobiography that he lost his faith in early childhood. He simply was not trying to further Judaism, and does not seem to have practiced it in any way. He may have been a Jew, but his religious beliefs do not appear to be such.

He was no secular Jew, but he hardly was conventional as he pretty much was a pantheist/panentheist. Since you asked for quotes, let me list some that relate, and then you can link to this and some other websites that also do the same:

Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

When the solution is simple, God is answering.

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.

God always takes the simplest way.

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.

That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.

I want to know all Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details.

God does not play dice.

I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil.



There's more, and here's one site of his quotes: Albert Einstein Quotes Page 6 - BrainyQuote

 

[Boyd]

The point is that because of his massive scientitic achievements and being a jew he furthered judaism in two major areas

1) Representing jews. The fact that he made these achievements and was a jew, made him a great representative of judaism. In light, it makes jews as a whole look good.

There is a problem here. During this same time, Jews were being exterminated in Germany, and anti-semitism was high nearly everywhere. Einstein himself was even attacked for being a Jew, and his physics ruled as "world-bluffing Jewish physics." This is largely the reason he was not awarded the Nobel Prize for his theory on relativity, even though he was nominated many times.

The fact that he didn't practice Judaism though means that his life did not reflect upon Judaism. Whether or not it makes Jews as a whole look good (which I doubt), it doesn't reflect upon Judaism. Just because one is a Jew, that doesn't mean what they do is based on Judaism, or is a reflection there of. If one were to study Einstein's religious ideas in order to gain a knowledge of Judaism, the outcome would be a disaster.

I don't know if you looked around lately, but there many many people and groups that hate jews, just because they are jews.

And that did not change with Einstein. So I'm not sure how your argument can actually work here.

2) Tikkun Olam. He did one of the major tenents of Judaism which is to help the world.

Why did he do what he did though? Was it because of Judaism? Not at all. Many people do great things in the world, and it has nothing to do with Judaism. The fact that a Jew does something great, doesn't mean they are doing it because of a tenant of Judaism. And it certainly doesn't mean that an outsider would look at the act, and ascribe it to a tenant of Judaism.

He was no secular Jew, but he hardly was conventional as he pretty much was a pantheist/panentheist. Since you asked for quotes, let me list some that relate, and then you can link to this and some other websites that also do the same:

Einstein was a secular Jew. He labeled himself an agnostic. He stated he lost his faith.

Also, I did not ask for quotes from Einstein on religion. I know he mentions religious ideas. Often, those statements are grossly misconstrued. What I asked for were citations in religious works, in regards to Judaism, from Einstein. As in, how many sources actually cite Einstein in regards to Judaism? It isn't many.

 

[metis]

Einstein was a secular Jew. He labeled himself an agnostic. He stated he lost his faith.

Absolutely false, and you're making up a story here. Even though there were those who felt that Einstein used "God" as a reference to the laws of physics, there's simply no way to verify that. On top of this, why would Einstein state he believe in "Spinoza's God" if he were secular? Have you ever read Spinoza, or even Einstein's statements about Spinoza? Nor have I ever seen a quote from him calling himself an "agnostic". Again, post one if you can find it.

Also, I did not ask for quotes from Einstein on religion. I know he mentions religious ideas. Often, those statements are grossly misconstrued. What I asked for were citations in religious works, in regards to Judaism, from Einstein. As in, how many sources actually cite Einstein in regards to Judaism? It isn't many.

OK, which statements are "misconstrued", and can you please supply evidence for your assertion? I did for mine, now it's your turn.

Secondly, I did not say that Einstein was somehow any kind of model for Judaism, but that is not the same as "secular" as you have falsely claimed. Again, I ask for you to provide evidence for this claim. I have roughly about a half-dozen books on Einstein in my personal library, and I haven't seen a single bit of support for what you're posting here.




Added: After reading back at your posts, I think I see where there may be a disconnect between us as I now note that most of your reference was in regards to Einstein pretty much abandoning Judaism, which is true. However, that's still not the same as "secular".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Einstein did more than just science, and his belief in "Spinoza's God"... was a contribution to Judaism, ...

Not in the least.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nor have I ever seen a quote from him calling himself an "agnostic". Again, post one if you can find it.

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

- Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.

- source

 

[Badran]

***Mod post***

This thread has been moved to the Same Faith Debates forum​

 

[Avi1001]

Nor have I ever seen a quote from him calling himself an "agnostic". Again, post one if you can find it.

It would be difficult to disagree with anyone who advocates agnosticism or atheism on a logical basis. Theism is an emotionally driven approach.