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Jews

rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
It is not true.
If they had been from the line of Jacob, they would have been named "Jacobite"s.
Regards
Click to expand...
well, Jacob had his named changed to Israel, so they were known as the children of Israel and (eventually) as "Israelites".

Then, the group of "Israelites' split into two kingdoms based on what tribe from among the Israelites they were. The one that remains is named after Judah, one of the children of Israel/Jacob. So the remaining group of the Children of Jacob/Israel is ALSO the children of Judah/of those who lived with the children of Judah, the Judah-ites, (the Yehudim).
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
rosends said:
well, Jacob had his named changed to Israel, so they were known as the children of Israel and (eventually) as "Israelites".

Then, the group of "Israelites' split into two kingdoms based on what tribe from among the Israelites they were. The one that remains is named after Judah, one of the children of Israel/Jacob. So the remaining group of the Children of Jacob/Israel is ALSO the children of Judah/of those who lived with the children of Judah, the Judah-ites, (the Yehudim).
Click to expand...

Israel was the title of Jacob, not his proper name. Jacob never changed his name.

"The Jewish Study Bible" of Oxford University Press says on page 68 "The scientific etymology of Israel is uncertain, a good guess being '[The God] El rules.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_(name)

“Although Israel always accepted proselytes,1it was at first largely made up of people physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Eventually the term “Israelite” was replaced by the term “Jew” (Yehudi), derived from the kingdom of Judah (Yehuda), the southern Israelite kingdom that retained its independence for approximately 135 years after Assyria conquered the northern kingdom and took its leading citizens into captivity.

After the fall of the kingdom of Judah, Judaism (the Israelite religion) continued to be open to Gentile converts. The book of Esther mentions one such occasion.

“In every province and city, wherever the king’s command and decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a holiday. Then many of the people of the land became Jews, because fear of the Jews fell upon them” (8:17 nkjv).

Soon after the conversions described in Esther, Alexander’s conquests established a common Hellenistic culture around the Mediterranean, exposing pagans to Jewish religion and lifestyle. Judaism became a vibrant missionary faith. Many thousands of Gentiles became God-fearers and converts.2”

http://questions.org/attq/are-today...abraham-isaac-jacob-and-the-israelite-tribes/

So, all Jews are not from the physical lineage of Jacob.

Regards
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
Israel was the title of Jacob, not his proper name. Jacob never changed his name.
Click to expand...
Actually, God changed Jacob's name. (via an angel, Gen 32:29, 35:10).
paarsurrey said:
“Although Israel always accepted proselytes,1it was at first largely made up of people physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Eventually the term “Israelite” was replaced by the term “Jew” (Yehudi), derived from the kingdom of Judah (Yehuda), the southern Israelite kingdom that retained its independence for approximately 135 years after Assyria conquered the northern kingdom and took its leading citizens into captivity.

After the fall of the kingdom of Judah, Judaism (the Israelite religion) continued to be open to Gentile converts. The book of Esther mentions one such occasion.
Click to expand...
Yes, it accepted converts. That's why I included in my statements "those who lived with..." You didn't read that?
paarsurrey said:
So, all Jews are not from the physical lineage of Jacob.

Regards
Click to expand...
No, they are the ones who belong to that nation based in the nation of Judah. That's what I said, " the children of Judah/of those who lived with the children of Judah, the Judah-ites, (the Yehudim)."
 
arthra

arthra

Baha'i
Leo613 said:
Are Jews superior
Click to expand...


I think you are referring to the Biblical references to Jews as the Chosen People.. and some of the laws relating to the Jewish tribes ..regarding marriage and such. Being "Chosen" can also be a burden and responsibility that is not so easy to bear...

My belief is that this served a purpose during the time of tribal societies and that it was important to maintain an identity...otherwise the legacy of the Jewish nation would be lost over time... I do not believe the same ordinances are necessary to day.
 
RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Flankerl said:
Well excuse me you have never told us anything about you as you fear that we will send an assassin to you.
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To be fair to Leo613 he did say on a previous thread that he was raised in an environment where English was not taught, that he had no secular education. One problem with Leo, however, is his claim to have been yeshiva educated to the age of 21. For someone with that reported background he seems remarkably ignorant of Judaism, in any form, and singularly lacking in any of the skills that should have been honed in that educational setting.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
rosends said:
Actually, God changed Jacob's name. (via an angel, Gen 32:29, 35:10).
Click to expand...
What a strange book Genesis is ?

Gen 32:29

27And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."
28So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."
29And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."
30And Jacob asked and said, "Now tell me your name," and he said, "Why is it that you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there.
31And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8227

Even the angel could not change the name of the Jacob.
The scribes does not accept it and mentions him Jacob in the next verses and even the Jews call him Jacob now a days.

Regards
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
just like us all, there can be at times superior, and inferior, but being a superior race, no way.
 
Last edited:
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
What a strange book Genesis is ?

Gen 32:29

27And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."
28So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."
29And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."
30And Jacob asked and said, "Now tell me your name," and he said, "Why is it that you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there.
31And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8227

Even the angel could not change the name of the Jacob.
The scribes does not accept it and mentions him Jacob in the next verses and even the Jews call him Jacob now a days.

Regards
Click to expand...
that's true -- God does it in 35:10. But clearly, the change is not meant to be exclusive because the text still uses "Jacob." However, related to the point at hand, this does not mean that Israel isn't a new name of Jacob, just that it is a name along with Jacob. Are you claiming that if people still call Lew Alcindor by that name, Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not his name? Or if I were to call that large gentleman Terry Gene Bollea, then "Hulk Hogan" is not his name?
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
rosends said:
that's true -- God does it in 35:10. But clearly, the change is not meant to be exclusive because the text still uses "Jacob." However, related to the point at hand, this does not mean that Israel isn't a new name of Jacob, just that it is a name along with Jacob. Are you claiming that if people still call Lew Alcindor by that name, Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not his name? Or if I were to call that large gentleman Terry Gene Bollea, then "Hulk Hogan" is not his name?
Click to expand...
The angel said
"Your name shall no longer be called Jacob"
Yet the scribed wrote him Jacob.
Israel was a title name, not a proper name. The proper name still was Jacob.
Regards
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have a nickname that close friends and family call me by, so what is so difficult to understand that "Israel" is what Jacob was to be called by many and "Jacob" by some others, or to be used interchangeably?
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
The angel said
"Your name shall no longer be called Jacob"
Yet the scribed wrote him Jacob.
Israel was a title name, not a proper name. The proper name still was Jacob.
Regards
Click to expand...
There is nothing in the text which says "title." The text explicitly says "name" multiple times. You can't ignore what the text says. Is there anything in the text about "Israel" which says "title"? No. There isn't.
 
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