Joe Biden, the Bishops & Vatican II: The Battle Over the Brand of U.S. Catholicism

[pearl]

I have a great deal of time for Francis. Benedict was good in one respect only, I think, and that was his interest in reviving the traditional music of the church. I felt it was dreadful that much of the Catholic church seemed to have turned its back on a thousand year old artistic heritage, in order to try to be hip and trendy (which never works).

Benedict certainly did revive tradition, right down to the red pattern leather shoes and the ermine collar.
I remember the choices of music in the early days of Vat II. Back in the days when our parish offered four masses on Sunday and one on Saturday night, known as the 'folk mass'. Also the days there were several priests in residence in most parishes. The folk mass didn't survive very long. It was usually the 10am Mass that offered the more traditional music.

 

[exchemist]

Benedict certainly did revive tradition, right down to the red pattern leather shoes and the ermine collar.
I remember the choices of music in the early days of Vat II. Back in the days when our parish offered four masses on Sunday and one on Saturday night, known as the 'folk mass'. Also the days there were several priests in residence in most parishes. The folk mass didn't survive very long. It was usually the 10am Mass that offered the more traditional music.

Yes, but the legacy of Vatican II was also a huge wave of bad hymns, mass-produced by such people as Marty Haugen, Bernadette Farrell and Stephen Dean, which have largely elbowed out the traditional ones, while the plainsong masses have almost died out, apart from Missa de Angelis - and Credo III on rare occasions.

Anyway, I have done my bit to tend the flame at our local church, where we still keep 2 other plainsong masses going and also adapt Anglican 4-part harmonised chant for the psalm. Or we did, until Covid put a stop to it. I hope we will be able to recover.

 

[pearl]

Yes, but the legacy of Vatican II was also a huge wave of bad hymns,

I guess that's when ones says beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Music, especially in church must 'speak' to one from the heart, and just as 'wave of had hymn's' may have been like fingernails on a chalkboard, for others an unfamiliar style which they did not relate to their lives. And these 'bad hymns' invite others to 'sing to the Lord'. Personally, I think there's room for both.

 

[exchemist]

I guess that's when ones says beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Music, especially in church must 'speak' to one from the heart, and just as 'wave of had hymn's' may have been like fingernails on a chalkboard, for others an unfamiliar style which they did not relate to their lives. And these 'bad hymns' invite others to 'sing to the Lord'. Personally, I think there's room for both.

It's true that musical taste is highly personal, I agree. And there is something to be said for catering for a range of tastes, which I suppose our church does at the various masses. We are lucky in our parish, in having had a selection of priests that can sing and who like music.

 

[metis]

Our church has a regular choir that normally sings traditional hymns, a folk group that uses mostly more modern tunes, and then just the choir director when neither of the above is used. I really like the folk group, and they sing some songs that will bring tears to my eyes in a heartbeat, let me tell ya.

 

[pearl]

I really like the folk group, and they sing some songs that will bring tears to my eyes in a heartbeat, let me tell ya.

The 'experiment' in liturgical music has been all over the place immediately following Vat II. I can remember, at a diocesan Liturgy, the communion song was a creative dance performed by a female artist. I glanced at the Bishop for any reaction but he did not express any. Our folk mass was not very well attended, but sometimes smaller is better as everyone was invited around the altar for the liturgy of the Eucharist. Don't tell the liturgy police.

 

[Quiddity]

We need to remember that the Church is not the "Gestapo", thus there is and always has been room for personal discernment. As one priest I know said, the Church is like the Roman traffic cop, whereas some will largely do what he says, some will ignore him, and some will do elements of both.

Ultimately, it is us who will be judged.

It is clear that one must never do what conscience forbids. Nothing innovative there with any Catholic that has a desire to do God’s will as antiquity and the Church lays out. But where I part with some traditionalists and some modernists alike........is that I do not believe that it is the supremacy of conscience alone that should decide. There is a reason the Church lays out levels of authorities and how one should respond. No one person understands everything.

 

[metis]

But where I part with some traditionalists and some modernists alike........is that I do not believe that it is the supremacy of conscience alone that should decide. There is a reason the Church lays out levels of authorities and how one should respond. No one person understands everything.

There was an excellent Catholic book I bought about 30 years ago, and it was entitled "Let Your [Informed] Conscience Be Your Guide", and the gist of it was that one should go with their own informed conscience, but if there's any doubt about that being correct, then one should go with the Church's teachings.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Actually, I have found the Latin mass quite useful on occasions. When I lived for a while in The Hague I went to (beautifully sung) Latin masses at the parish church, because I couldn't understand Dutch. Like you, I'm old enough to remember pre-Vatican II, and have the advantage of having been taught Latin at school, so I know my way around the Latin mass. When it came to the sermon (in Dutch of course), I used to take my tiny son off to a side aisle and read him illustrated bible stories.

that is a beautiful story

i was definitely lost during mass

I have a great deal of time for Francis. Benedict was good in one respect only, I think, and that was his interest in reviving the traditional music of the church. I felt it was dreadful that much of the Catholic church seemed to have turned its back on a thousand year old artistic heritage, in order to try to be hip and trendy (which never works).

i must agree with you on the music

probably an age thing