Joel Osteen, con artist

[Trey of Diamonds]

What song is that? Who wrote it? I like it.

The famous Ray Stevens.

YouTube - Would Jesus Wear a Rolex?

 

[Father Heathen]

WHY do people fall for this nonsense? WHY aren't these people exposed on national TV, shut down, publicly humiliated? Why does no one defend the poor, low-income, insecure people who waste their precious time and money on this guy?

Out of sheer curiosity, I went to church one Sunday at Joel Osteen's mega-church in Houston. There were easily 7,000 people in the former basketball stadium, with gigantic plasma screen TVs, a fog machine, mood lighting, etc. I knew from the second I heard Joel Osteen on CNN a year ago that he was a con man, because a caller asked him and his bejeweled wife what percentage of the church's income they took home, and he wouldn't answer. But what surprised me was how obvious it is even inside the church. (Joel and his wife pictured below. See the enormity of the church here.)

He just tells cute stories, and tells people what they want to hear. Then it's off to the massive bookstore inside the church. Send the kids to the separate, children's bookstore. Go to a different counter, where they are selling DVD's of today's sermon for $7.95.

There was even a brochure to do mission/charity work in Jamaica....if you wanted to "volunteer" you had to pay $1600. You could go to an all-expense paid resort in Jamaica for less! With group/church/non-taxable rates, they're probably making a profit, then taking credit for the charity work their poor, deluded "volunteers" are doing!

This is a symptom of the evangelical "non-denominational" mega church in America. No taxes. Your customers pay in cash (perhaps 10% of their income, if they are tithing). Book sales. DVD's. The band and the singers and the ushers are all probably volunteers. No democratic participation from the members. No financial oversight.

It all comes down to one thing: big, stinking profit for one guy, and all he has to do is spout nonsense for an hour a week. He actually inherited the church from his father.

It was the exact same story at the "Solid Rock" church in Dayton, which I also attended one Sunday with some friends, out of curiosity. This monstrous mega-church by the highway is known for its monstrous "touchdown Jesus", which is so distracting as you drive past its a wonder there aren't more car accidents there (shown below).

The son of the guy who founded Solid Rock gave the sermon, and my friends and I are pretty sure he was actually drunk! He said his parents were doing mission work in South Africa. Yeah, probably at some white-sanded resort.

Another pastor, a black guy with bright white teeth and a suit that looked like it was made in Italy, gave a mini-sermon in which he thanked the Lord for saving him, even though he lost his way years ago and went to jail for credit card fraud. After that, he said, he got saved, but lost his way and went to jail again. But the second time he got saved for real!

In other words, he found a racket that is actually legal in the U.S....the private, "non-denominational" evangelical racket.

Organized religion in a nutshell.

Dunno if this guy is a fraud or not. But honestly I think they should start enforcing the death penalty on people who are guilty of this kind of fraud. If it was up to me people like Bernie Madoff/corrupt evangelicals who are found guilty of robbing people like they do should be put to death. To take peoples trust and use it to rob them, they deserve nothing less than the electric chair.

But then your faith would be leaderless.

 

[painted wolf]

Nothing wrong with a leaderless faith.

wa:do

 

[Father Heathen]

Nothing wrong with a leaderless faith.

wa:do

Of course not, unless you wanted to turn a profit or have some political power and influence.

 

[painted wolf]

prophet... profit... what's the difference right?

Sometimes I wonder if they didn't just the words mixed up?

wa:do

 

[Smoke]

Part of the reason I think of Joel Osteen as a con man and one who doesn't have a genuine heart for leading people to God is because he charges money for tickets to hear him speak.

Once you accept the concept of paid clergy, though, it's just a question of degree.

Did Billy Graham do this? (I'm asking seriously)

I don't know, but Billy Graham isn't exactly living in a little shack on the edge of town, either. According to an article here, he pulled in about $200 thousand in pay and compensation in 2001 -- not that that even compares to some of these other preachers. The same year, John Hagee scored over $1.2 million.

 

[Storm]

Once you accept the concept of paid clergy, though, it's just a question of degree.

I don't know about that. The only way to have dedicated clergy is to provide them with a measn of surviving.

 

[Smoke]

I don't know about that. The only way to have dedicated clergy is to provide them with a measn of surviving.

The most dedicated clergyman I ever knew supported his family by teaching in the public schools for thirty years, in addition to his clerical duties.

 

[Storm]

Well, I don't mean to speak against him, but I'd rather have someone who was fully commited to it, rather than splitting hir attention between jobs.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, I don't mean to speak against him, but I'd rather have someone who was fully commited to it, rather than splitting hir attention between jobs.

But wouldn't a member of clergy who also lives an every day, average Joe life be better able to relate to and understand those they guide/serve and vice versa?

 

[Storm]

But wouldn't a member of clergy who also lives an every day, average Joe life be better able to relate to and understand those they guide/serve and vice versa?

Couldn't the same be said of therapists? You may be right, but I'd still rather have a pro.

 

[Buttercup]

Once you accept the concept of paid clergy, though, it's just a question of degree.

How should they support themselves and their families without pay? Plus, you don't think there's a difference between a pastor receiving a salary and another who charges high fees to hear the good news about God?

I don't know, but Billy Graham isn't exactly living in a little shack on the edge of town, either. According to an article here, he pulled in about $200 thousand in pay and compensation in 2001 -- not that that even compares to some of these other preachers. The same year, John Hagee scored over $1.2 million.

Honestly, that amount of money doesn't seem like that much given the books he's published and the size of his empire now. An air traffic controller at Seattle Center makes nearly that amount. It's not as much money in today's world as it sounds.

I truly don't think it compares with the multi millions of dollars Joel Osteen takes in yearly. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, for a person to attend one of Joel's "God" concerts in NYC...you have to have some discretionary income to throw around. You certainly couldn't come to hear the good news about God if you're broke.

 

[Buttercup]

The most dedicated clergyman I ever knew supported his family by teaching in the public schools for thirty years, in addition to his clerical duties.

The LDS don't have paid clergy from what I understand.

 

[Smoke]

Well, I don't mean to speak against him, but I'd rather have someone who was fully commited to it, rather than splitting hir attention between jobs.

What makes you think he wasn't fully committed to being a clergyman? How much do you get paid to be a mother?

 

[Storm]

What makes you think he wasn't fully committed to being a clergyman? How much do you get paid to be a mother?

It has nothing to do with how much you get paid. He had another full time job to attend to, and there's simply no way he could be wholly invested in both. He couldn't meet with parishioners during class.

 

[rojse]

But isn't he just reinforcing what's in the Bible? Doesn't the Bible command followers to give 10% of what they earn to the Church? Doesn't the Bible say that if you give money to the Church that you will be rewarded many times over?

If giving money to people like this guy is such a bad thing then we should look to what's wrong with the people who give, not the people who ask.

Yes, but at least churches put part of the donated money towards charitable causes - counselling services, homeless shelters, and so forth. If you prove to me that Osteen puts his money towards such things, then I will recant every thing that I have said against him on this thread.