John 1:18 ||Jesus adherents only

[Super Universe]

Why don't you explain your religion further, that might be interesting. Who is Jesus, in your religion? Etc.

John 1:10

Perhaps you should ask yourself why it's so important that He isn't.
Ever consider the reasons why you embraced your new religion?
Why was that, mr.universe?

I mean, really, you really aren't good at presuming things.

Why don't I explain my religion? Why, so you can find fault in it without doing the work to read the book? You're one lazy debater.

Who is Jesus, in my religion? The Architect of this universe. A Son of God. Master of angels.

Perhaps I should ask myself why it's so important that Jesus isn't God? But He was God just as I am God and you are God and an animal is God and a tree and on and on and on. He wasn't this primitive idea of god who gets angry and jealous and makes stupid rules that people grow out of.

Have I ever considered the reason's why I embraced my new religion? Of course I have. I embraced it because once you realize your incredibly selfish human ego is incorrectly telling you that God is very involved with the earth and humanity, then it all makes sense. God creating the universe and humanity and then getting angry at the humans He created does not make sense to me. What makes sense is the ignorant humans who were afraid of comets thought that every natural event was caused by an angry God.

I'm really not good at presuming things? You only flipped the script on yourself.

 

[Desert Snake]

Why don't I explain my religion? Why, so you can find fault in it without doing the work to read the book? You're one lazy debater.

Who is Jesus, in my religion? The Architect of this universe. A Son of God. Master of angels.

So you actually do believe that Jesus is the creator, making your previous question quite ironic.
Consider what "creator", means.

Perhaps I should ask myself why it's so important that Jesus isn't God? But He was God just as I am God and you are God and an animal is God and a tree and on and on and on. He wasn't this primitive idea of god who gets angry and jealous and makes stupid rules that people grow out of.

That's called pantheism.

Have I ever considered the reason's why I embraced my new religion? Of course I have. I embraced it because once you realize your incredibly selfish human ego is incorrectly telling you that God is very involved with the earth and humanity, then it all makes sense. God creating the universe and humanity and then getting angry at the humans He created does not make sense to me. What makes sense is the ignorant humans who were afraid of comets thought that every natural event was caused by an angry God.

My religion doesn't teach that every natural event is caused by God. Your previous religion may have, not my problem.

I'm really not good at presuming things? You only flipped the script on yourself.

 

[Super Universe]

So you actually do believe that Jesus is the creator, making your previous question quite ironic.
Consider what "creator", means.


That's called pantheism.


My religion doesn't teach that every natural event is caused by God. Your previous religion may have, not my problem.

So I actually do believe that Jesus is the Creator? No, Jesus is the Architect of this universe, not the Creator. Only God can create. The definition of the word "create" that I am using means: to from something from nothing. Jesus planned this universe and used "the system", or God, to form it. No one can form something from nothing except God. All other beings manipulate something that already exists.

Humans think that they can smear some colored paste on a canvas and that they are creating when they are merely moving something around that already exists.

The irony is because of your lack of understanding of how the universe really works.

I am God, you are God, and everything is God is pantheism? Pantheists believe that the universe is God but they do not believe that God is also a being. So, like most belief's, it's sort of right and sort of wrong.

Your religion does not teach that every natural event is caused by God? Good, you're not stuck in 3,000 year old ignorance.

My previous religion may have? Not really. Jehovah's Witnesses mostly focus on the Book of Revelations but just because I was forced to go to the Kingdom Hall didn't make me a JW.

 

[Grandliseur]

JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY


What is your interpretation of John 1:18


Bibles can explain the verse de facto in the verse, some bibles doing so, not a problem.

Yet for those of us using the deity titles as specificity, in originality, this would clearly denote Jesus as a god, or The God, /monotheists.

Opinions?

☆

KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 1: ISV: 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty.
Revelation of John 21:23: The city doesn't need any sun or moon to give it light, because the glory of God gave it light, and the lamb was its lamp.​

With these three scriptures, I feel that Christ is to God as the moon is to the sun, an exact likeness, an exact copy. Once I include another scripture, I think that Christ functions as God's avatar to angels and mankind so that all have to go through Christ since creation to interact with God.

Col 1: ESV: 19 For God was pleased to have all of his fullness live in him.​

 

[Deeje]

My previous religion may have? Not really. Jehovah's Witnesses mostly focus on the Book of Revelations but just because I was forced to go to the Kingdom Hall didn't make me a JW.

Its amazing to me how close your beliefs still are to the ones you were raised with. What was it that made you feel that what they taught was so wrong?

 

[Super Universe]

Its amazing to me how close your beliefs still are to the ones you were raised with. What was it that made you feel that what they taught was so wrong?

My current beliefs are probably 80% in disagreement with the way I was raised. My father was a devout JW. He thought that the Old Testament idea that God was an angry and jealous God was correct. When something bad happened my father thought that it was God's punishment on others but, of course, he never applied that to himself.

The UB says that Jesus is Michael, a Son of God. So that is similar to the JW's but the JW's believe that Michael was an arch-angel, which is incorrect. The Kingdom Hall that I went to did not teach this, they never mentioned Jesus at all but my father would say sometimes that the Christians spend too much time promoting Jesus instead of God.

The JW's teach that people should not have blood transfusions, that comes from the warnings in Genesis about draining blood from animals before cooking them. This is absolutely ridiculous and primitive. A primitive preferred way of preparing meat is not the word of God.

Also the JW's concentrate heavily on Revelations because they think that they are the meek who shall inherit the earth. They don't correctly understand this. The earth will sort of become a paradise when humans evolve to the point where they know everything that beings who have ascended to heaven know but it's not going to be just JW's on the earth and people are not going to be walking among the pet lions unless you want to get eaten.

Also, even though humanity will evolve to a point where there is no more war, no police, and no more laws the sun will still expand in a few billion years and consume the earth. Neither God nor the angels will intervene and save the earth. God never interfere's. The angels will do what they can but they can't stop the sun from expanding.

JW's also think that only 144,000 get into heaven and the rest of us have to live on the earth. John the Baptist was a primitive human who had a vision of angelic gatherings in heaven and beings from all over the universe coming to one place and assembling in the great halls. John did not understand this and greatly confused all of it. Revelations is not the word of God, it's the word of a primitive tribal man who was afraid of comets.

And there is no judgement day for all of humanity. The judgement is upon you after death.

What was it that made me feel that what JW's taught was so wrong? I'm an Indigo child. I knew that what they and other religions were teaching was wrong. God, the Creator of the universe, gets jealous? How could the creator of everything get jealous of primitive, ignorant, and lazy humans who get addicted to drugs and alcohol, abuse their children, murder, lie, and steal? Even though I knew that what I was being taught was primitive I did not know the truth until I found the UB. God didn't do any of the things the bible says He did.

I like the way the JW's believe without having to give money to their church unlike the other Christian religions where people give to the church and then believe they are going to get into heaven because of it. That's not nearly enough of a reason to attend their services. I sat through enough of those incredibly dry and boring lectures. Also, if anyone said anything incorrect about God while I was sitting there I would stand up and interrupt them and start a debate right there, so, it's better that I stay away from any church.

My father used to tell me, "When armaggedon comes I will come get you from school and we will go to the Kingdom Hall and sing songs."

Still waiting...

 

[Super Universe]

KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Heb 1: ISV: 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty.
Revelation of John 21:23: The city doesn't need any sun or moon to give it light, because the glory of God gave it light, and the lamb was its lamp.​

With these three scriptures, I feel that Christ is to God as the moon is to the sun, an exact likeness, an exact copy. Once I include another scripture, I think that Christ functions as God's avatar to angels and mankind so that all have to go through Christ since creation to interact with God.

Col 1: ESV: 19 For God was pleased to have all of his fullness live in him.​

Christ is to God as the moon is to the sun? Christ is to God as a sun is to another sun.

 

[Etritonakin]

No. Moses did not see His face.

Exodus 33
19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Actually, that (The Lord) was not the Father.

The Word, who became Christ, was also I AM, Melchizedek, etc.

Christ indicated this when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM"

Also... The main point of Hebrews 7 was to explain that Christ was also Melchizedek.

 

[DavidFirth]

Actually, that (The Lord) was not the Father.

The Word, who became Christ, was also I AM, Melchizedek, etc.

Christ indicated this when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM"

Also... The main point of Hebrews 7 was to explain that Christ was also Melchizedek.

No, it wasn't. It was to explain how Christ can be our high priest while not being of the Levetical order.

 

[Grandliseur]

Christ is to God as the moon is to the sun? Christ is to God as a sun is to another sun.

If that is what you believe, fine with me. Each to his own.

If that is what you get from the scriptures I included, then so be it.

 

[Super Universe]

If that is what you believe, fine with me. Each to his own.

If that is what you get from the scriptures I included, then so be it.

I didn't get my quote from the scriptures you included. Your comparison was extremely insufficient.

Jesus is not like the moon. Jesus is the Son of God, the master of angels, the Architect of this universe.

Also, the "word" did not become Christ. The "word" was the vibration in the void, a disturbance, something whereas before there was nothing. Tibetan monks chant to recreate this first "word". How do you explain the beginning of the universe to an ignorant human who was afraid of thunder?

I AM is what the Jewish writer of the story of Genesis heard. The primitive human asked for a name and was told "I AM", meaning, "I exist". The voice never gave a name, even the angels don't know God's name.

Melchizedek was not Jesus. He was someone like Jesus, not nearly as high up as Jesus, but a being who had advanced knowledge and gave some of that knowledge to Abraham.

 

[Grandliseur]

Jesus is the Son of God

Exactly ! The SON of God, not the Almighty himself.

This nonsense about using 'I am' to try to imply that Jesus is God would make millions and millions of others God. I have said, 'I am' so many times I no longer can count the number.

But, again, you are free to believe what you like. I am not a Trinitarian, I am not a JW, or with the LDS. I interpret scripture Sola Scriptura, and Jesus is the son of God, the only begotten son of God through whom all other things were created.
If you think of continuing a discussion on the Trinity, it is water off a duck's back when it concerns me.

Christ is firstborn, that is he had a beginning: Col 1: 14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
Michah 5: 2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.​

Jesus is the Image of God, not the real thing, God. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, his goings forth was from of old. He had a beginning; God does not have a beginning.
Trinitarians should learn to understand what they read.

​

 

[Deeje]

@Super Universe thank you for your honest response. Sorry for the length of this, but there was a bit to address.....I'll split it up into two posts.

My current beliefs are probably 80% in disagreement with the way I was raised. My father was a devout JW. He thought that the Old Testament idea that God was an angry and jealous God was correct. When something bad happened my father thought that it was God's punishment on others but, of course, he never applied that to himself.

I am always sorry to hear of parents like these whose apparent lack of balance can really impact negatively on children, giving them the wrong impression of God and of the faith in general. You would not be the only one who has been impacted in this way, especially in the old days....we have come a long way in our understanding since then. (Assuming that this was an accurate description and not just your youthful interpretation of his actions) Your father's interpretation of the scriptures and his parenting style would have received needed clarification and adjustment by means of Bible study articles and meeting parts. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that any act committed in this world is a punishment from God. When such a punishment occurs....we will not be left in any doubt about it as the scriptures indicate.

Hebrews 10:26-27; 30-31...."For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. . . .For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

The UB says that Jesus is Michael, a Son of God. So that is similar to the JW's but the JW's believe that Michael was an arch-angel, which is incorrect.

Michael is mentioned only in Daniel, Jude and Revelation.

Daniel 10:21...."However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Miʹcha·el, your prince."

Daniel 12:1..."During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book."

Jude 9..."But when Miʹcha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

In Revelation 12:7 Michael is mentioned again...."And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven."

As commander and the "chief" angel, Michael was the one assigned to cleanse the heavens with his angelic forces. He was also referred to in Daniel's prophesies concerning the "time of the end". Daniel 12 is a description the final part of this world system. (Matthew 24:21)

Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term “archangel” in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

The Kingdom Hall that I went to did not teach this, they never mentioned Jesus at all but my father would say sometimes that the Christians spend too much time promoting Jesus instead of God.

I cannot imagine why Jesus would not be mentioned. He is mentioned regularly at our meetings but I do understand the emphasis on Jesus in the churches because they believe that he is God. Talking about Jesus in their understanding IS talking about God, so Jehovah barely rates a mention.

The JW's teach that people should not have blood transfusions, that comes from the warnings in Genesis about draining blood from animals before cooking them. This is absolutely ridiculous and primitive. A primitive preferred way of preparing meat is not the word of God.

Wow...have you not kept up to date on this issue? Because of JW's refusal to accept blood transfusions, doctors were forced to devise new methods for treating JW patients that did not involve the use of blood. In the process they discovered that their JW patients were much better off without blood. They recovered more quickly and with less complications, meaning that their hospital stays were shorter, saving the hospitals lots of money. They also came to realize that blood transfusion was not the harmless procedure it was once thought to be.

This video was issued by the Australian Government Blood Authority. I hope you will watch it as it is not from JW's but from experts in the field of patient management with bloodless medicine.

Patient Blood Management (PBM) | National Blood Authority

Also the JW's concentrate heavily on Revelations because they think that they are the meek who shall inherit the earth. They don't correctly understand this. The earth will sort of become a paradise when humans evolve to the point where they know everything that beings who have ascended to heaven know but it's not going to be just JW's on the earth and people are not going to be walking among the pet lions unless you want to get eaten.

That is not quite correct. Can I ask how long ago you left the faith? We do not believe that we are the only ones to inherit the earth. Since only those from the time Christ established his "church" were to inherit a heavenly reward, all those before Christ will also inherit the earth. They too will be resurrected to become subjects of that heavenly kingdom. (John 5:28-29)

The paradise that the first humans lost will be returned to us because a very selfless person paid an enormous debt to set us free. Do humans look as thought they are getting smarter in their use of technology? Or are we using technology to slowly take ourselves into brain death? The paradise was God's original purpose and humans lost it due to disobedience. Continued disobedience will lead to them losing it forever. Only those "doing the will of the Father" will escape the judgment that is soon to come. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Deeje]

Part 2

Also the JW's concentrate heavily on Revelations because they think that they are the meek who shall inherit the earth. They don't correctly understand this.

Look around you.....Jesus said that the "good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come". (Matthew 24:14) Who are preaching this message SU? Those who follow the Urantia Book? Who authored it? Can you rely on the information contained in it? Is it the truth because you want it to be?
I need evidence that what I believe is true. Since no one really knows who wrote it, aren't you aware of the fact that it could be a religious hoax......it sounds a lot like Scientology?

The earth will sort of become a paradise when humans evolve to the point where they know everything that beings who have ascended to heaven know but it's not going to be just JW's on the earth and people are not going to be walking among the pet lions unless you want to get eaten.

Jesus promised that there would be something to inherit.....and it is nothing like what the world has become now, but if humans are allowed to continue pillaging the earth as they have been doing, the earth itself will punish them, as it is in fact doing right now. Natural disasters are mostly man made...a result of them selfishly plundering earth's resources without due regard for how future generations will be affected. We are now reaping what we have sown. Hauling the vast amounts of oil and coal out of the place where God put them has never been questioned as to the consequences, nor has the pollution they have cause once they were brought to the surface to power cars and drive industry. Climate change is a fact that we can no longer deny.
The Revelation brought out a very important warning at a time when it was inconceivable.

Revelation 11:18...."But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came. . . .and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." When that was written, (almost two thousand years ago) man did not possess the means to ruin the earth, so the prophesy was very accurate.

Also, even though humanity will evolve to a point where there is no more war, no police, and no more laws the sun will still expand in a few billion years and consume the earth. Neither God nor the angels will intervene and save the earth. God never interfere's. The angels will do what they can but they can't stop the sun from expanding.

Humanity will never reach a point where selflessness will dominate. In all his millenniums of existence, man has never been able to rule himself successfully. He has tried every form of government he can think of, but division, greed, pride and animosity have always created conflicts and bloodshed. According to the Bible, there is one last form of rulership to try......a single global government. It has been mooted for decades now, but something will happen to bring this to the table as the only solution...it will engender a cry of "peace and security" but it will not deliver anything but anarchy when people realize that it comes at the expense of all freedoms.

In this letter Paul mentions “Jehovah’s day,” which will begin with the attack on “Babylon the Great.” (Revelation 17:5) However, just before Jehovah’s day begins, nations will be saying, “Peace and security!” This expression may refer to one pronouncement or to a series of notable statements. Will religious leaders be involved? Since they are part of the world, they will possibly join the nations in saying, “There is peace!” (Jeremiah 6:14; 23:16, 17; Revelation 17:1, 2) This proclaiming of peace and security will signal that the day of Jehovah is about to begin. Enemies of God’s Kingdom “will by no means escape.”

JW's also think that only 144,000 get into heaven and the rest of us have to live on the earth. John the Baptist was a primitive human who had a vision of angelic gatherings in heaven and beings from all over the universe coming to one place and assembling in the great halls. John did not understand this and greatly confused all of it. Revelations is not the word of God, it's the word of a primitive tribal man who was afraid of comets.

I think you have John the Baptist mixed up with the apostle John here, but anyway.....

Since I believe that all scripture is from God, that rules out eliminating any of its books as unimportant or irrelevant. It is a brave person who thinks they can choose for themselves what is truth and what is not.

And there is no judgement day for all of humanity. The judgement is upon you after death.

Since the dead are not conscious, (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) and both the "righteous and the unrighteous" in their graves are called out of them, then yes there will be a judgment for them at that time....but there is a bigger judgment day at Armageddon. Like the days of Noah, Jesus said. (Matthew 24:29-31; 37-39)

I'm an Indigo child.

No idea what that is.

I knew that what they and other religions were teaching was wrong. God, the Creator of the universe, gets jealous? How could the creator of everything get jealous of primitive, ignorant, and lazy humans who get addicted to drugs and alcohol, abuse their children, murder, lie, and steal? Even though I knew that what I was being taught was primitive I did not know the truth until I found the UB. God didn't do any of the things the bible says He did.

You have to understand that this is Godly jealousy...not the petty kind that humans feel. It has to do with the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
If you really believe that the Bible is untrustworthy or has been misinterpreted....I have to ask...who said so?

I sat through enough of those incredibly dry and boring lectures. Also, if anyone said anything incorrect about God while I was sitting there I would stand up and interrupt them and start a debate right there, so, it's better that I stay away from any church.

Our meetings have entered the digital age...no more 'dry and boring'. And if you are the sort of person who values your own opinion more than those who are appointed by Jesus to teach us, then it sounds as if you did the right thing in leaving. Rebels in the camp just cause trouble. (Hebrews 13:17) To be a follower of Jesus means to obey his teachings in all things. Just because Urantia may make reference to Jesus doesn't mean that it is an accurate portrayal. There is no way to verify that any of what it says about Jesus'early life is true.

My father used to tell me, "When armaggedon comes I will come get you from school and we will go to the Kingdom Hall and sing songs."

Still waiting...

You won't have to wait much longer......look at the state of the world. It all fulfills Bible prophesy.

Jesus told his disciples...."Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42-44)

 

[Deeje]

Actually, that (The Lord) was not the Father.

This what happens when the divine name is removed from scripture.

Psalm 110:1-2 says KJV...."The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

The LORD in capitals here is YHWH (Yahweh/ Jehovah).....So who is "the Lord" that YHWH spoke to? He was to sit at YHWH's right hand, so it has to be a future reference to Jesus. After he successfully completed his mission on earth, Jesus sat at God's right hand, waiting for his God to place his enemies 'as a stool for his feet'. Then, rather than bringing peace to the earth right away, he was to 'rule in the midst of his enemies' for an undetermined time. Christ's rulership did not mean immediate peace, but a time for separation of the "wheat" from the "weeds".

The Word, who became Christ, was also I AM, Melchizedek, etc.

That is very scrambled IMO. The Word, (Logos or spokesman) was indeed the pre-human Jesus and he did indeed become flesh, but he was not YHWH....nor was he "I AM". The reason being that the name of the most High God was never "I AM" in the first place.

Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The name of Moses’ mother Jochebed is thought to mean “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20)

For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. He was saying that he could become whatever he needed to be in order to fulfill his purpose. Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14-15)

"Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘YHWH (Jehovah) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

Jesus is never called Yahweh in the Bible and in fact he has many names. Yahweh has just one.

Christ indicated this when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM"

Again this is a gross mistranslation of what Jesus said. In context, Jesus was answering a question about his age, so he was letting his hostile Jewish audience know that he existed before Abraham was even born. If you look at the number of times Jesus said "I am" using the exact same phraseology, you can see that he was not claiming to be God in any of them.

Also... The main point of Hebrews 7 was to explain that Christ was also Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:15-17; 22-25...."And this becomes even clearer when another priest arises who is like Mel·chizʹe·dek, 16 who has become such, not by the legal requirement that depends on fleshly descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.17 For it is said in witness of him: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”. . . Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."

Here Paul is confirming that Jesus is a "priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek"....that Mel·chizʹe·dek foreshadowed him. Like Moses also when it was foretold that God would raise up another prophet "like him" (Deuteronomy 18:18-19; Acts 3:22-23) It didn't make Moses into Jesus.

It is also showing us that the High Priest Jesus is the one who intercedes for us with God, so he cannot be God or else we would have to have an intercessor for the intercessor......do you see how ridiculous that is?

 

[Super Universe]

@Super Universe thank you for your honest response. Sorry for the length of this, but there was a bit to address.....I'll split it up into two posts.



I am always sorry to hear of parents like these whose apparent lack of balance can really impact negatively on children, giving them the wrong impression of God and of the faith in general. You would not be the only one who has been impacted in this way, especially in the old days....we have come a long way in our understanding since then. (Assuming that this was an accurate description and not just your youthful interpretation of his actions) Your father's interpretation of the scriptures and his parenting style would have received needed clarification and adjustment by means of Bible study articles and meeting parts. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that any act committed in this world is a punishment from God. When such a punishment occurs....we will not be left in any doubt about it as the scriptures indicate.

Hebrews 10:26-27; 30-31...."For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. . . .For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."



Michael is mentioned only in Daniel, Jude and Revelation.

Daniel 10:21...."However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Miʹcha·el, your prince."

Daniel 12:1..."During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book."

Jude 9..."But when Miʹcha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

In Revelation 12:7 Michael is mentioned again...."And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven."

As commander and the "chief" angel, Michael was the one assigned to cleanse the heavens with his angelic forces. He was also referred to in Daniel's prophesies concerning the "time of the end". Daniel 12 is a description the final part of this world system. (Matthew 24:21)

Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term “archangel” in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.



I cannot imagine why Jesus would not be mentioned. He is mentioned regularly at our meetings but I do understand the emphasis on Jesus in the churches because they believe that he is God. Talking about Jesus in their understanding IS talking about God, so Jehovah barely rates a mention.



Wow...have you not kept up to date on this issue? Because of JW's refusal to accept blood transfusions, doctors were forced to devise new methods for treating JW patients that did not involve the use of blood. In the process they discovered that their JW patients were much better off without blood. They recovered more quickly and with less complications, meaning that their hospital stays were shorter, saving the hospitals lots of money. They also came to realize that blood transfusion was not the harmless procedure it was once thought to be.

This video was issued by the Australian Government Blood Authority. I hope you will watch it as it is not from JW's but from experts in the field of patient management with bloodless medicine.

Patient Blood Management (PBM) | National Blood Authority



That is not quite correct. Can I ask how long ago you left the faith? We do not believe that we are the only ones to inherit the earth. Since only those from the time Christ established his "church" were to inherit a heavenly reward, all those before Christ will also inherit the earth. They too will be resurrected to become subjects of that heavenly kingdom. (John 5:28-29)

The paradise that the first humans lost will be returned to us because a very selfless person paid an enormous debt to set us free. Do humans look as thought they are getting smarter in their use of technology? Or are we using technology to slowly take ourselves into brain death? The paradise was God's original purpose and humans lost it due to disobedience. Continued disobedience will lead to them losing it forever. Only those "doing the will of the Father" will escape the judgment that is soon to come. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Growing up I didn't know what was real JW belief and what was just my father's ideas from the OT that God was an angry God. I saw he and his wife argue sometimes about it, she would tell him that those things were not Jehovah's Witness beliefs. I didn't know one way or the other and didn't even attempt to learn it. He tried giving me the colored books to read but I would just pretend to read them and then act stupid later on as if I didn't understand them.

For me, that JW religion scared the hell out of me. I knew absolutely that if my father heard a voice inside his head telling him to take a knife and kill me that he would do it. He was a very uneducated man who was, primitive, unemotional, and never told a joke in his entire life and wouldn't even laugh at other's jokes. I never understand why people choose to be that way, to never tell a joke? That's not human, that's going through life trying to act like you're a tree.

Scripture does not provide all the answers, it doesn't even provide most of them. We have many very educated professionals who can give you great information about money, medicine, astronomy, physics, biology, history, and many other subjects and none of it comes from the bible.

Hebrews 10:26 to 27 is trying to convey that once we know the truth we are judged by a different standard. Humans were taught the idea of sin but you cannot commit actual sin until you know the divine plan and willingly go against it.

Michael is mentioned only in Daniel, Jude, and Revelation? He's mentioned in about 600 pages of the UB.

Michael is not a prince. This is a confusion of the planetary prince with Michael (Jesus). Jesus is the ruler of this universe. The planetary prince of the earth is an administrative angel who tried to secede from universal control when the Lucifer Rebellion started. The earthly planetary prince is the devil and a different angel than Lucifer. Lucifer caused a rebellion, the devil seceded or tried to secede.

Jude 9 is also a confusion. Michael is not an arch angel, He is Jesus, He is above the angels. As I mentioned above the devil attempted to secede the earth from Michael's control. The saying you quoted as "May Jehovah rebuke you" was actually "The judge rebuke you" and it was the arch angel Gabriel who said that to Lucifer, not to the devil. The judge is not Jehovah either, the judges are very high level angels. The angels judge themselves. God does not interfere. You're not that important, even the angels are not that important for God to stop doing what He is doing to get involved in.

War broke out in heaven? It was a war of words, ideology, not a physical struggle.

Michael and his angels battled with the dragon? There was no real battle against a dragon. Michael allowed the rebellion to continue until every angel made a choice then He acted to stop it. Every rebel angel was offered mercy with the loss of their position, most accepted it, Lucifer did not.

Michael did not cleanse the heavens, once every angel had picked a side the angelic judges sent out their agents who arrested every rebel angel.

Daniel is telling the story of when the sleeping survivors are awakened, some will be allowed to ascend, some won't.

You can't imagine why Jesus would not be mentioned in Kingdom Hall? I don't know, I honestly did not pay attention, I would daydream the entire time I was stuck in that pit.

I haven't kept up to date on the JW blood transfusion issue? Why would anyone do that? If JW's die because they are stuck in some 3,000 year old incorrect religious ideas that the Jews don't even follow, why should I care? If your child dies because you prevented them from getting a necessary blood transfusion, I think you should get the death penalty. I will volunteer to throw the switch and I might just throw it early.

The doctors discovered that JW patients were much better off without blood and recovered more quickly with less complications? You might be able to convince other uneducated JW's of that nonsense but I have 5 years of college and know better. You don't actually believe that, do you?

Bloodless medicine is great if you don't actually need blood.

Can you ask me how long ago I left the faith? I never was a JW. I never bought into it, not even one cent. You can't make me something that I choose not to be.

JW's don't believe they are the only ones to inherit the earth and that people who lived before Charles Taze Russell invented the JW religion will also live on the earth? Okay, whatever.

Do you know why Charles Taze Russell invented the JW religion? The things you believe came from the way he was raised as a child. You should do some research on him.

 

[Super Universe]

Part 2

I should look around myself? I've always done that, I've been to 14 different countries, been to 40 US states. I've seen enough people, I don't like them.

Matthew 24 foretells the end of the temple in Jerusalem, NOT the end of the world. "The gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world (not the real whole world, just the whole world known to the Jews at that time) as a testimony to all nations (all nations known to the Jews at that time), and then the end will come."

Typical of a JW, they take something out of context in order to scare people into joining your idea of "paradise earth". Matthew 24:14 not talking about the end of the world, it's talking about the end of the temple AND the end of Jerusalem as a Jewish city because the Romans would destroy it in 70 AD.

Who authored the UB? Who authored any book of the bible? Name one. Just one. Oh wait, you didn't know that no one knows who wrote any book of the bible, did you? Have you ever heard the one about people who live in glass houses?

Can I rely on the information contained in the UB? Yes.

Did you know there is a website about all of the unfulfilled predictions that the Jehovah's Witness leadership has made over the years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Tower_Society_unfulfilled_predictions

Is the UB the truth because I wanted it to be? I don't like many things in the UB. I don't like the idea that the asian race is superior although the UB doesn't say how they are superior, maybe it's just superior numbers, I don't know. I also don't like the idea that I have to reincarnate on a primitive world and forget everything I've learned here. I also don't like that Jesus allowed the angels to rebel and cause a lot of problems here on the earth (I would have zapped them into dust immediately). I could go on and on but that's for another topic.

The UB is like scientology? Except it's nothing like Scientology but you know that Scientology bans people from being friends with people who have left the religion? Sound familiar? It should.

I grew up with you people. I know all your tricks and all of your arguments, and leave the kids at home next time you want to go door to door. They hate it more than you know.

Jesus promised that there would be something to inherit? You mean the earth, yeah, "the meek will inherit the earth". What that means is that humanity will evolve into gentle beings. It doesn't mean only JW's will live on the earth.

If humans are allowed to continue pillaging the earth? You JW's always have to focus on and amplify the negatives. Humans have more freedom than ever before, there is more education, more access to information, more music, more movies, more books, more food, more fresh water, more medicine, more transportation, more of everything than in all of history.

Natural disasters are mostly man made? How does man create a hurricane? Let me guess, you don't have any college whatsoever, do you?

Revelations 1:18? Imagine that, a JW quoting Revelations? It's like I'm stuck in that boring Kingdom Hall wasting two hours of my life again. What Revelations 1:18 is trying to say is that before Jesus finished his earthly mission people who died on the earth went to sleep, after Jesus ascended they were awakened and judged. Jesus determined whether each continued on to heaven or went back for reincarnation. Typical of JW's, they take something written two thousand years ago and attempt to apply it to something happening now.

Purposely taking biblical text out of context is called lying.

Humanity will never reach a point where selflessness will dominate? But they will and the best part about it is that they won't have any choice in it. Does a tree get angry that it's a tree?

Stop worshipping John the Baptist's crazy vision, or nightmare. The Book of Revelations is not the word of God, it's the word of a primitive ignorant human who saw Jesus awakening the sleeping survivors, angelic meetings, and he saw universal gathering halls full of beings from every part.

You think I have John the Baptist mixed up with the Apostle John? Nope, I know more than you do. The Book of Revelations was written by a follower of John the Baptist. While John the Baptist was sitting in jail, just before he got his head chopped off, he had a nightmare. When one of his followers came to visit him John told him about the nightmare and the guy wrote it down and it became the Book of Revelations.

You believe that all scripture is from God? When was the last time you stoned to death someone for violating the sabbath? Do you obey the sabbath and do no work? If you say you don't, that is called lying. Also, when what does God want with money? Exodus 30:12. Why does the OT say "An eye for an eye" and the NT says "Forgiveness", seems like opposites to me? I know you don't know any of the answers.

Matthew 24:29 to 31 is talking about when humanity evolves into gentle beings who will know everything that beings in heaven know and Jesus will return to the earth. It's not talking about all humanity being judged. You can't figure it out and neither can your elders because none of you has an education.

You have no idea what an Indigo child is? I'm not a bit surprised. So you're going through life without an education and hiding in your house with your bible and you've convinced yourself that you don't need to know anything else? Who created the universe? If you know that answer then shouldn't you learn everything possible about it and the living beings inhabiting it?

Wait, you're afraid, you're one of those people who is afraid of everything. That's why you're a JW because you think that's going to get you paradise on earth with all the other meek JW's. That's not what's going to happen. You're going to die like everyone else does and wake up at the next level and, if you had pants you'd **** your pants.

So there is Godly jealousy and human jealousy? No, there isn't. God in heaven can't be jealous or angry. It's impossible. The only way God can experience those emotions is to connect with a primitive being in the material universe.

If I really believe that the bible is untrustworthy or has been misinterpreted, who said so? I said so. It doesn't make sense, God creating humans then killing them? God getting angry? Cain afraid of being killed, by who? Adam and Eve's children having to commit incest to populate the earth? The devil being allowed by God to exist and get into the garden? It's all stories with partial truth.

Do you know what a temple policy book is? Church's have what's called a "policy book" that you have to agree to follow in order to be a member. In Christian church's the first policy is usually "Jesus is our Lord and Savior". In the past the Jewish priests came up with temple policy books as well that told how offerings would be provided "the best of the flock". Those temple policy books were included in the Old Testament because they were important to the Jews even though they were never the word of God. Nowdays, you and others don't know the difference between the word of God and some greedy Jewish priest who wrote a temple policy book because he wanted you to pay him a ransom on the census so he could live at least as luxurious as the king.

Your elders are appointed by Jesus? Okay, tell me something great philosophy that one of your elders has taught you? If they are appointed by Jesus they must have some great philosophy to tell or some amazing new formula's for how the universe works? I can't wait to see it.

I didn't leave the JW's, I never was one of you. The best thing that ever happened to me was I got some acne at age 16 and my father thought I was being punished by God and so he never picked me up again on his weekend visitations and I never saw him again. Thanks God for that acne, I owe you big time for that one.

To be a follower of Jesus means you have to obey His teachings in all things? But what did the Apostles understand of universal things? They didn't even know what caused the ground to shake. They thought it was an angry God when it was really plate tectonics.

Just because Urantia may make reference to Jesus? Uh, one quarter of the UB is the life of Jesus, something like 600 pages. That's not just a reference, it tells every year of His earthly life.

There's no way to verify any of the UB? There's no way to verify any of the OT or the NT or the Watchtower or Awake magazines either. Except we do know that armageddon did not actually happen back in 1917 when the Watchtower magazine said it would. And then again in 1918, and I forget what year but one more time they claimed it was coming and it didn't. That's called lying.

I won't have to wait much longer for armageddon? My dad said it was coming soon from 1970 to 1983. It didn't. Still waiting...

Jesus said "Keep on the watch because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming". When humans evolve into gentle beings and know everything that beings in heaven know Jesus will return. No one is going to get in trouble, it's going to be a day of celebration.

I guarantee you will never see your blessed day of armageddon, no JW will because you've got it all wrong.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus said "Keep on the watch because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming". When humans evolve into gentle beings and know everything that beings in heaven know Jesus will return. No one is going to get in trouble, it's going to be a day of celebration.

I guarantee you will never see your blessed day of armageddon, no JW will because you've got it all wrong.

OK then...if you say so.....

 

[Etritonakin]

No, it wasn't. It was to explain how Christ can be our high priest while not being of the Levetical order.

No -it was to explain that Melchizedek -without mother, father, beginning of days or end of life -who abideth a priest CONTINUALLY -WAS MADE LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD -in other words, was made Christ

"But this man, because he CONTINUETH FOREVER has an UNCHANGEABLE PRIESTHOOD"

"For such an high priest became us"

 

[Etritonakin]

This what happens when the divine name is removed from scripture.

Psalm 110:1-2 says KJV...."The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

The LORD in capitals here is YHWH (Yahweh/ Jehovah).....So who is "the Lord" that YHWH spoke to? He was to sit at YHWH's right hand, so it has to be a future reference to Jesus. After he successfully completed his mission on earth, Jesus sat at God's right hand, waiting for his God to place his enemies 'as a stool for his feet'. Then, rather than bringing peace to the earth right away, he was to 'rule in the midst of his enemies' for an undetermined time. Christ's rulership did not mean immediate peace, but a time for separation of the "wheat" from the "weeds".



That is very scrambled IMO. The Word, (Logos or spokesman) was indeed the pre-human Jesus and he did indeed become flesh, but he was not YHWH....nor was he "I AM". The reason being that the name of the most High God was never "I AM" in the first place.

Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The name of Moses’ mother Jochebed is thought to mean “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20)

For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. He was saying that he could become whatever he needed to be in order to fulfill his purpose. Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14-15)

"Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘YHWH (Jehovah) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

Jesus is never called Yahweh in the Bible and in fact he has many names. Yahweh has just one.



Again this is a gross mistranslation of what Jesus said. In context, Jesus was answering a question about his age, so he was letting his hostile Jewish audience know that he existed before Abraham was even born. If you look at the number of times Jesus said "I am" using the exact same phraseology, you can see that he was not claiming to be God in any of them.



Hebrews 7:15-17; 22-25...."And this becomes even clearer when another priest arises who is like Mel·chizʹe·dek, 16 who has become such, not by the legal requirement that depends on fleshly descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.17 For it is said in witness of him: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”. . . Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."

Here Paul is confirming that Jesus is a "priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek"....that Mel·chizʹe·dek foreshadowed him. Like Moses also when it was foretold that God would raise up another prophet "like him" (Deuteronomy 18:18-19; Acts 3:22-23) It didn't make Moses into Jesus.

It is also showing us that the High Priest Jesus is the one who intercedes for us with God, so he cannot be God or else we would have to have an intercessor for the intercessor......do you see how ridiculous that is?

Will try to answer later