John 14:6

[Dawnofhope]

But, if Baha'is want to make it somehow truly the "Word of God", then they are left with explaining away creation, the flood, Satan, hell, the resurrection and tons of other things in the NT and the Bible. Is it really worth it?

So your advice to the Baha’is might be something along the lines of cut the Christians and the NT loose and be done with it?

You raise some interesting points along with everyone else on this thread. We’ve had contributions from conservative Christians and skeptics alike. I’ve added my thoughts.

I’ll respond in more depth soon. Thanks for dropping by.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Did Christianity want to have the only Truth and to be the only way to God? I think the early Church and later the Catholic Church and even today many sects of Christianity want to be the only way to God.

Christianity is a diverse religion made up of diverse peoples. Fallible church leaders have got together to produce fallible religious doctrine and dogma. The mentality behind a literal interpretation of John 14:6 speaks of human’s tendency towards ego and the longing for simplistic black and white views of looking at the universe. However that has nothing to do with God, Jesus and the Divine impetus that led to the creation of the NT.

And what does their "Truth" include? That whole thing about Adam's sin. Then add in a fallen archangel that is out to deceive everyone and get them to turn from God and get condemned to hell. Christians that believe all of that have made Jesus into the only way out. He paid the "necessary" penalty for Adam's sin. If people accept it, they avoid going to hell and get to go to heaven and be with God and Jesus.

They are religious narratives that can help the audience understand the nature of Christ or erect major barriers to understanding. Scripture is like a tool that can enable us to soar on the wings of the Divine verses or sink into the abyss of prejudice and ignorance. Like any tool it depends on what you do with it.

But, as SeekingAllTruth points out, it could be that Christians set it all up to get people to obey the "God's rules"... and a few people rules too. If they want to avoid hell, then follow Jesus and obey his commandments. No other religions, including Judaism, can help them. None of them have the "Jesus" provision of dying for the sins of the world. If they doubt it? That's the devil. If they fall into temptation? That's the devil. So the "good" Christian doesn't need anything but to follow Jesus and trust in him... along with whatever the Church tells them to do too.

I enjoyed what SeekingAllTruth has to say. Cynicism and skepticism can be fun and refreshing. It can also become an obstacle to truth in its own right.

As usual, Baha'is put themselves in an awkward position... they have to believe in the words of Jesus but interpret them and explain them in a way that makes all religions equally true. Actually, I shouldn't say that Baha'is have to believe in the words of Jesus, because some Baha'is do question whether or not all the things attributed to Jesus were things he really said, or were things the gospel writers said he said.

Baha’is have a wide spectrum of beliefs in regards the Christian Bible. We’re a diverse group who often prefer to think for ourselves rather blindly accepting or believing what religion teaches including our own.

Oh, but that other Baha'i explanation of "dispensation", to me, doesn't fit with what the NT writers were trying to say. If Christianity is true, then the "atoning" death of Jesus would always be a necessary thing to get people cleared of their sin debt to God. So if that isn't true, then what is true about Christianity and the NT? As you know, I believe if Christianity isn't true as believed, then it's probably made up myths and legends. I think it was meant to be exclusive and the "only" way, but... if it is myths and legends... then it isn't. But, if Baha'is want to make it somehow truly the "Word of God", then they are left with explaining away creation, the flood, Satan, hell, the resurrection and tons of other things in the NT and the Bible. Is it really worth it?

We all need to find a narrative or view that makes sense. As a Baha’i I view the NT as Divinely inspired and believe Jesus to be the Son of God. From that perspective and familiarity with the Baha’i Revelation its not too hard explaining creation, Satan, hell and resurrection. In doing so we weave a narrative that sees worth in the NT and Christian Bible. It is definitely worth it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

In the Bhagavad-Gita Ch 9 verse 18 Lord Krishna says:

I am the Supreme Goal of all living beings, and I am also their Sustainer, Master, Witness, Abode, Shelter, and Friend. I am the Origin, End, and Resting Place of creation; I am the Storehouse and Eternal Seed.

In Ch 10 verse 32 He also says:

Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the Self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth.

Centuries before Christ appeared Krishna had already made these claims. Christ’s Words are not unique nor confined to Himself only, as previous Avatars have uttered the same Words thousands of years earlier.

One way of understanding such a statement is if the sun said “I am the only sun which gives light”. But considering the days of the week, to conclude there are seven Suns would be incorrect because in reality it is the same sun reappearing each day.

As the people have not understood this, they have thus claimed that the Light of their Lord is the superior one when the light of all the Messengers in reality all emanates from the same one sun.

 

[Muffled]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

I believe he was not referring to exclusivity. He was simply stating fact. Since He and the Father are one then a contact with Jesus is a contact with God. However there is no other direct contact with God It takes a lot less faith to believe God is talking to you when a physical person is talking to you than when a Spirit is talking to you. That doesn't work for us now. What works for us now is the promise of the Paraclete which is Jesus, the Father and God also.

 

[Muffled]

For the sake of argument, I'll assume that he really said that.

When he said it, there was no Christianity. So if you take that quote literally he could not have been referring to that which did not then exist.

The next question I could propose is whether he was speaking of the human Jesus who lived and died or the eternal Christ. To me, his quote makes more sense spoken by the eternal Christ because he said that people who (truly) saw him saw the father.

Departing from Christian theology, what I see is that the eternal Christ, the Avatar, is the one who exists where all the rivers of belief merge into God.

In metaphorical terms he is the gate through which souls enter as they realize their union with Divinity.

I believe there is no evidence for union with divinity.

 

[Muffled]

I guess Jesus backed up that statement by saying....
John 6:44..."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him"....
John 6:65..."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It is invitation only......if Jesus is "the way" to God, then no one who tries to come to him by another way will reach him.
And if he is "the truth", then nothing that contradicts his teachings will ever allow someone a foot in the door.
And if he is "the life", then no life can be saved without faith in his blood.

Romans 8:8-9...
"But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath."

That "wrath" from which we are saved, is God's anger at all the lies and deceit that the devil has promoted in this world.....he controls everything. (1 John 5:19) So eliminating from existence all who accept those lies and deceit as their truth....those who oppose God's son and fail to acknowledge that everlasting life can only come through his sacrifice, will come to disappointment according to our scripture. His incoming Kingdom will have as its subjects, only those who see Jesus as Messiah, and the only "way" to everlasting life.

i believe none of that is not relative to the Op question.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe he was not referring to exclusivity. He was simply stating fact. Since He and the Father are one then a contact with Jesus is a contact with God. However there is no other direct contact with God It takes a lot less faith to believe God is talking to you when a physical person is talking to you than when a Spirit is talking to you. That doesn't work for us now. What works for us now is the promise of the Paraclete which is Jesus, the Father and God also.

The promise of the Paraclete was the promise to send the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, and that promise was fulfilled in the 19th century with the coming of Baha'u'llah. The Comforter/Spirit of truth is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but it can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit which is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter when He sent Jesus. Then later God sent another Comforter when He sent Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[CG Didymus]

So your advice to the Baha’is might be something along the lines of cut the Christians and the NT loose and be done with it?

To support the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation, Baha'is can't cut any major religion out. But at the same time, Baha'is can't say that all the beliefs held by all the other religions are true. So I think there is a Christianity that is believed to be true by Baha'is, but it is a Christianity defined by Baha'is. That Christianity compares well with liberal Christianity, but not so much with conservative/fundamental Christianity. And I wouldn't mind if that Christianity wasn't true. But, I do believe, that their beliefs fall in line very well with what the NT says. So... me and you, I think do "cut" the conservative Christians loose. But I don't have to then make sense of the NT and the rest of the Christian Bible. I can cut that loose too. Baha'is are kind of stuck with it and forced to explain away things that don't coincide with Baha'i beliefs.

 

[Dawnofhope]

To support the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation, Baha'is can't cut any major religion out. But at the same time, Baha'is can't say that all the beliefs held by all the other religions are true. So I think there is a Christianity that is believed to be true by Baha'is, but it is a Christianity defined by Baha'is. That Christianity compares well with liberal Christianity, but not so much with conservative/fundamental Christianity. And I wouldn't mind if that Christianity wasn't true. But, I do believe, that their beliefs fall in line very well with what the NT says. So... me and you, I think do "cut" the conservative Christians loose. But I don't have to then make sense of the NT and the rest of the Christian Bible. I can cut that loose too. Baha'is are kind of stuck with it and forced to explain away things that don't coincide with Baha'i beliefs.

Thanks CG. I've really enjoyed the time we've had together over the last few years discussing and debating religion. A major focus for us both has been the Christian Bible and the views of conservative Christians. I believe we've both reflected and learnt a great deal from our involvement with this forum and the many people we have come in contact with. For us both, our understanding of the Bible, Christianity as well as the other major world religions has evolved and changed. That's really an exciting journey in its own right.

You are correct that in some respects Baha'is are more closely aligned with liberal Christians. There are however some important areas of common ground Baha'is share with our conservative Christian friends too. That includes the Divine inspiration of the Christian Bible, the existence of the God who inspired the Bible, the Omnipotence and Omnipresence of God, that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah, Jesus was born to the virgin Mary and was the Son of God, the Divinity of Christ and the Return if Christ.

There are of course many areas of difference between the Baha'is and conservative Christians. We wouldn't deny that. Of course the Baha'is interpret the Bible differently from conservative Christians, an important aspect being Biblical literalism. So if the Bible is to be interpreted literally the conservative Christian view is most closely aligned to such a view of the Bible.

The Baha'is far from being stuck in an awkward no man's land, have the weight and momentum of modern Biblical scholarship in support as well a huge amount of common ground with Christians generally, whether liberal or conservative. Accompanying that understanding are Baha'is that reside in countries where Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and even agnosticism is the major religious group. So we have an evolving understanding of not only Christianity but the phenomenon of religion worldwide. So I would rate the Baha'is as being in a strong position to engage with not only conservative Christians about the Christian Bible but with peoples of all faiths or no faith at all.

 

[74x12]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

The best way to understand it is to pray to God and plead for understanding. Don't be afraid because it's the Father's great delight and joy to give us the kingdom of God that he prepared for us all before the foundation of the worlds. Because he loves everyone more than we ever could even imagine or love them ourselves. But he gave his only Son for a valid reason. We can't make the cross of Jesus Christ in vain by saying we can obtain salvation without it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

God is the omnipresent source of all souls, when it finally dawns on an aspiring soul thirsting for God realization that God already is what and who they are at the deepest level, it is because they have been guided to that realization by the first created son, the Christ. If we understand this, we as souls do not need to become a Christ all over again, but naturally become one with Christ and thus one with God.

 

[allright]

It means you repent of your sins , accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and surrender your
life to him or you reject him and choose eternity in hell
Theres a reason when asked that Jesus said only a few people would be saved

 

[Trailblazer]

It means you repent of your sins , accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and surrender your
life to him or you reject him and choose eternity in hell
Theres a reason when asked that Jesus said only a few people would be saved

2.4 billion people that comprise 29% of the world population are Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour....
That is a few people?

 

[allright]

2.4 billion people that comprise 29% of the world population are Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour....
That is a few people?

Very few people who call themselves Chritians have ever been born again

So your saying Jesue lied

 

[Trailblazer]

Very few people who call themselves Chritians have ever been born again

How do you know which Christians are born again?

So your saying Jesue lied

Lied about what?

Matthew 7:21-23 I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[John1.12]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

I take the verse literally. Its too clear to take any other way . The context of the whole chapter gives clarity to what he meant specifically. Any other interpretation should take into consideration the whole chapter .

 

[John1.12]

How do you know which Christians are born again?

Lied about what?

Matthew 7:21-23 I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There are no ' Christians ' yet in Matthew 7 .

 

[CG Didymus]

In the Bhagavad-Gita Ch 9 verse 18 Lord Krishna says:

I am the Supreme Goal of all living beings, and I am also their Sustainer, Master, Witness, Abode, Shelter, and Friend. I am the Origin, End, and Resting Place of creation; I am the Storehouse and Eternal Seed.

In Ch 10 verse 32 He also says:

Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the Self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth.

Centuries before Christ appeared Krishna had already made these claims. Christ’s Words are not unique nor confined to Himself only, as previous Avatars have uttered the same Words thousands of years earlier.

One way of understanding such a statement is if the sun said “I am the only sun which gives light”. But considering the days of the week, to conclude there are seven Suns would be incorrect because in reality it is the same sun reappearing each day.

As the people have not understood this, they have thus claimed that the Light of their Lord is the superior one when the light of all the Messengers in reality all emanates from the same one sun.

Usual problems... Who wrote the Bhagavad-Gita and who wrote the gospels? Was it the "manifestation" or people? If people when did they write it? Can we trust them to be quoting the manifestation accurately? Well, probably not... 'Cause with the Scriptures of one it talks about reincarnation and in the other it has Jesus resurrecting from the dead. So, only with verses that support Baha'i beliefs are quoted as "literal", while other verses, that contradict Baha'i beliefs, must have some other meaning.

Other problem... Jesus is made into being part of a Godhead by Christians. Krishna is an incarnation of the God Vishnu. Not all "avatars" are made into a God, or say they are Gods. But these others, the other people that Baha'is believe are "manifestations", didn't make the same kind of claims that Jesus and Krishna did.

The other problem is with the analogy. The sun is the same sun. But Krishna is not Jesus, and they didn't "shine" the same type of light. Their messages were way different. And with Krishna, there is an expectation and acceptance of other "suns" or avatars. With Christians, Jesus is it. Are they wrong? Lots of people think so. But, the biggest problem I have with Baha'is, is that they deny the Christian Jesus almost as much as an Atheist would. But then, they make up their own concept of a Jesus... that is not God, that didn't come back to life, that didn't die to pay some ransom or penalty, and that didn't conquer an evil spirit being named Satan and all the rest of the Christian mythology. But all that mythology is what Christianity is. Take that away and, like the Atheists, you've taken away and denied Christianity.

And that is fine with me. But why then make up your own version of Christianity? You don't need to answer that, I know why. It is to make the Baha'i Faith the "sun" for today and to make them true but the "sun" of yesterday... and no longer needed. But to fully get rid of them, all the contradictions have to be explained away. That means he is the "sun", but not the "sun" that is shining today. He was the "sun", but his follower misinterpreted and misunderstood his message... making "clouds" that blocked the light of that sun to shine. Fine, great, in a lot of ways I can see that and agree with you. But Baha'is also change things around that are clearly stated in the NT. So by the time Baha'is are done, nothing about Christianity remains true. And, like I said, that's fine with me. But then why call Christianity a true, "revealed" religion? What's true about it?

 

[Muffled]

The promise of the Paraclete was the promise to send the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, and that promise was fulfilled in the 19th century with the coming of Baha'u'llah. The Comforter/Spirit of truth is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but it can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit which is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter when He sent Jesus. Then later God sent another Comforter when He sent Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I believe that is total garbage. The Paraclete came at Pentecost when believers were gathered in the upper room.

 

[Jainarayan]

Centuries before Christ appeared Krishna had already made these claims. Christ’s Words are not unique nor confined to Himself only, as previous Avatars have uttered the same Words thousands of years earlier.

He also said in BG 4.18 To protect the righteous, to annihilate the wicked, and to reestablish the principles of dharma I appear on this earth, age after age.

People incorrectly think of the Daśavatāra (lit. Ten Avatars) being His only appearances. There are 24 that are gleaned from the Bhagavata Purana, aka Srimad Bhagavatam. There may be thousands more of anśavatāra (partial) in all parts of the world, times, cultures. Many of them denied being God. The Buddha certainly denied it but lots of people accept him as being an avatar of God, having appeared for a particular purpose.