John Macarthur opens church

[metis]

The greater rights constitutionally and morally are seen to outweigh local laws by some people. Should we agree?

Only if the church is pro-death, not pro-life.

 

[Jainarayan]

That is my prediction based on the deaths until now. My reasoning goes like this.

- The epidemic started in March, so it's been going 6 months. 220,000 have died in that time, a lot of which was during summer when the conditions are not very favourable for transmission of the virus.

- The infection rate is increasing dramatically again all across Europe, as we get into the cooler weather. N America can be expected to have the same dynamics.

- There will not be full-scale roll-out of any vaccine until the spring.

- There are some treatments that can reduce the death rate, but only by about 30% or so.

- The immune proportion of the population in the US is <10% after 6 months, so won't be more than 20% by the end of the winter.

We can therefore expect that somewhat less than a further 220,000 will die in the next 6 months, say half that to be conservative. Hence my figure.

But if you can point to where my reasoning is faulty, please do. I'm in the UK so I may have missed some move to contain the virus in the US which will mitigate the death toll.

You don’t know any of this for a fact, you’re speculating and spreading information that is not factual. You can’t know when and where a vaccine or any other treatment will come. We can’t “expect” anything based on conjecture, which is all it is, current numbers or not.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Nobody is talking about any such thing, of course.

But whatever the fatality rate, 220,000 have died before their time as a result of this virus and another 100,000 more - at least - will do so in the next 6 months if measures are not taken to stop that. A compassionate society would not just shrug its shoulders at that and call it nature. Civilised countries have a health system that is supposed to do better than just nature.

So what is the acceptable casualty rate for Covid?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Ohhhh... I see. Hit hard... 8.17 million cases, 2%, 219,000 deaths, .06%. But we’ve been through a fruitless Möbius strip of comparing the US to other countries.

So then, people without masks are allowed to attend large indoor gatherings in public places. The regulation of no mask no entry is what, null and void? The rules are not being enforced? Hmm...

Can't help but remember that all those cases and deaths happened WHILE lockdowns were in place and everybody was trying really hard. What would those numbers have looked like if nobody cared? They would have been much higher. And yes, I get it that only a few people out of a hundred get really sick, or really die, but what number is too many when it is avoidable -- when you can do something about it with minimal effort?

And you think 8 million cases and 219,000 deaths isn't many -- but it is fully one fifth of the entire world put together. That demonstrates with amazing clarity that the US response to the virus did indeed result in a hugely inflated infection and death rate. And the response -- that's the fault of the US, not nature.

And then, you really ought to consider the success stories: Taiwan, New Zealand. Taiwan -- learned its lesson after SARS -- has had 535 cases and 7 deaths IN TOTAL! New Zealand, 1886 cases and 25 deaths. Making an effort can, apparently, have an immense advantageous effect.

It may well be that you don't care if you get sick -- or die. But is it right for you to assume that because you don't care, nobody else does, either?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

We all die in a matter of time. The issue is what do we do in the meantime?

There's no particularly good reason to die before you need to, however. And you can do a great deal, even while having to do a little social distancing, hand-washing and wearing a mask in social situations that can't be avoided.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why are you concerning yourself with people you have no contact with, and are you taking your own precautions? And how do you know who is infected? Yes, you’re succumbing to the hysteria.

And that is just the point! What makes this such a dastardly virus is that you can be infectious to others for almost 2 weeks without knowing that you've even got the virus!

If you are not being careful, by the time you come down with symptoms, you've probably infected dozens of people -- and then they do the same, and those they infected after them, and on and on...

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

THow many die of the flu every year?

Among those who got a flu vaccine? 40-60% fewer than among those who didn't.

 

[Windwalker]

The greater rights constitutionally and morally are seen to outweigh local laws by some people. Should we agree?

John MacArthur to Pastors: ‘Open Your Church’

No, we do not agree. This is moronic. Self-promotion by trying to claim he's being persecuted as a Christian. "Attorneys for the church argue that it is time for California to recognize that Christians are not second-class citizens..." What a dufus, to say the least.

No one, is preventing them from practicing their faith. There are however, common sense restrictions that the public is asking Mr. Selfish to respect. That's all. This is a pandemic, not the Roman Persecution of the saints! What a dufus he, and those like him are.

 

[Vinayaka]

No, we do not agree. This is moronic. Self-promotion by trying to claim he's being persecuted as a Christian. "Attorneys for the church argue that it is time for California to recognize that Christians are not second-class citizens..." What a dufus, to say the least.

No one, is preventing them from practicing their faith. There are however, common sense restrictions that the public is asking Mr. Selfish to respect. That's all. This is a pandemic, not the Roman Persecution of the saints! What a dufus he, and those like him are.

These guys are just darn lucky they aren't charged with attempted murder. In a state like China, (Let's not go on about how they're lying, suppose they are what they say they are.) which mandated mask use heavily right away, Covid all but disappeared. I'm not sure if there were any lawbreaker anti-mask people but if there were, you can bet they were dealt with rather quickly and harshly. And that saved a ton of lives.

 

[exchemist]

You don’t know any of this for a fact, you’re speculating and spreading information that is not factual. You can’t know when and where a vaccine or any other treatment will come. We can’t “expect” anything based on conjecture, which is all it is, current numbers or not.

You can't point to anything wrong in my reasoning, apparently. It's a damned sight more than conjecture. It is reasoning based on publicly available information. Producing a reasoned estimate is not spreading misinformation, especially as you are unable to point to anything wrong with the reasoning.

As far as a vaccine goes, it is a fact that none will complete approval trials until around the end of November, at the very earliest. After that, you have to get supplies manufactured at the scale required, you have organise (refrigerated) distribution and you need a programme put in place to schedule who gets it in what order. And then you have to actually run the immunisation programme. All this will obviously take several months. So it will be spring before we actually get needles stuck into arms, if any of the vaccines work. That is what all the qualified people are saying. The CDC thinks it will be at late as mid-year.

If you bother to read about it, you can find quite a lot of this out, you know. No need for conjectures.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Messaging from science and leadership is key to success in this virus, as can be clearly seen by looking at messaging around the world. In the US, Trump feuding with Faucci just confused things. In New Zealand, the PM and her top health official agreed on everything beforehand, and didn't contradict one another.

One of the best, for those who still hate following any guidelines, is Taiwan's message -- that social distancing is "an act of love."

 

[exchemist]

So what is the acceptable casualty rate for Covid?

You tell me the acceptable casualty rate for cancer and then I'll tell you.

 

[Windwalker]

These guys are just darn lucky they aren't charged with attempted murder.

Does that mean we can add attempted murder with his rallies to the growing list of crimes Trump has committed? At least it should be considered reckless endangerment of human lives, and levy a stiff fine and possible jail time for this. You can't drive a bus loaded with passengers down the side of a mountain, while you are both drunk and texting on the cell phone at the same time. There has to be some criminal liability for such reckless behaviors.

It absolutely stupefies me, how those who claim to preach "love thy neighbor", are not only this selfish and disrespectful of human lives, but that they are leaders of a church. It's one thing to be an idiot in the pew, it's another to be the bus driver..... I have zero respect or patience for such hypocrisies. It's not even remotely Christian in words and actions. "By their fruits, you shall know them", said Jesus, probably imagining this day and us wondering what the hell is wrong with them.

 

[Kenny]

They aren't infringing upon. Period. You can meet all you want. But you have to follow public safety protocols, like not meeting inside unstable buildings, for instance. Do you really, seriously need to have this explained to you?


Do you disregard public safety concerns in your rush to meet in a church building? It's a simple question of you as a pastor. Do you care about public safety? Yes, or no?

If NO, please explain your justifications?

So, should we put the same restraints on protesters?

 

[Windwalker]

So, should we put the same restraints on protesters?

Are they gathering indoors in enclosed spaces? Are they part of a regularly scheduled meeting? Then yes, those restrictions apply to them as well. From what I've seen though, the number of masks I see on protesters are considerably higher than you heath-risk-flaunters. And they are mostly outdoors from everything I've seen. Not indoors. Churches are free to gather outdoors too, just like the protestors.

So what is your excuse for ignoring public safety? What is your excuse as a Christian leader, to not follow health-guidelines of your state laid out solely, and only for the purpose public safety? Are you immune because the Holy Spirit will protect you? Are your elderly parishioners under God's protection, because you are reading from the bible? Do you imagine you are Moses leading your flock through the Red Sea of Covid-19, and the Lord shall deliver you and your followers safely to freedom from the threat of death because of your faith?

Please answer honestly.

 

[Kenny]

Are they gathering indoors in enclosed spaces? Are they part of a regularly scheduled meeting? Then yes, those restrictions apply to them as well. From what I've seen though, the number of masks I see on protesters are considerably higher than you heath-risk-flaunters. And they are mostly outdoors from everything I've seen. Not indoors. Churches are free to gather outdoors too, just like the protestors.

So what is your excuse for ignoring public safety? What is your excuse as a Christian leader, to not follow health-guidelines of your state laid out solely, and only for the purpose public safety? Are you immune because the Holy Spirit will protect you? Are your elderly parishioners under God's protection, because you are reading from the bible? Do you imagine you are Moses leading your flock through the Red Sea of Covid-19, and the Lord shall deliver you and your followers safely to freedom from the threat of death because of your faith?

Please answer honestly.

so, the question is (since outdoors close proximity and not full mask using or social distancing) - why should one Constitutional right be observed (Protestors) - and the other one (Religion) be infringed upon?

 

[Windwalker]

so, the question is (since outdoors close proximity and not full mask using or social distancing) - why should one Constitutional right be observed (Protestors) - and the other one (Religion) be infringed upon?

You can gather outdoors, just like the protesters, and as with anyone anywhere, best efforts to wear your masks. So far, I don't think they arrest people for not wearing one in a park, that I've ever seen.

But here's the thing. If the protesters wanted to bring people into a stadium indoors, and organized a time for everyone to meet, they would need to follow the same guidelines of public assemblies during a pandemic as churches do. A church gathering is not a spontaneous happening. It's fine outdoors, but not fine indoors. Same for an organized indoor protest. Same for a church gathering. I see no religious restrictions here. Meet outdoors. Dress warmly, if you live up North where I do though.

So, will you please answer my question now? Do you lead people in your church to disregard public health safety restrictions, and claim its for religious freedom?

 

[Kenny]

You can gather outdoors, just like the protesters, and as with anyone anywhere, best efforts to wear your masks. So far, I don't think they arrest people for not wearing one in a park, that I've ever seen.

But here's the thing. If the protesters wanted to bring people into a stadium indoors, and organized a time for everyone to meet, they would need to follow the same guidelines of public assemblies during a pandemic as churches do. A church gathering is not a spontaneous happening. It's fine outdoors, but not fine indoors. Same for an organized indoor protest. Same for a church gathering. I see no religious restrictions here. Meet outdoors. Dress warmly, if you live up North where I do though.

So, you are making your own rules regardless of guidelines.

So, will you please answer my question now? Do you lead people in your church to disregard public health safety restrictions, and claim its for religious freedom?

So, we regard safety. Masking where needed, disinfecting after every bathroom visit, social distancing where needed, but we don't restrict religious freedom if two people want to say hello with a hug and if they want to sing... sing your heart out.

If someone is in the danger zone, stay home and watch from home.

 

[Lyndon]

you've just thrown your Pro Life reputation out the window!!

 

[Windwalker]

So, you are making your own rules regardless of guidelines.

Please explain how you did not understand what was incredibly simple and clear about what I said. Protests, spontaneous protests, are not indoor activities. What didn't you understand how what you said has no support in facts? Please explain to me. I'm genuinely curious how you couldn't have seen what was crystal clear in that response.

So, we regard safety. Masking where needed, disinfecting after every bathroom visit, social distancing where needed, but we don't restrict religious freedom if two people want to say hello with a hug and if they want to sing... sing your heart out.

Sorry dude, that's not "religious freedom". That's just simply let-your-guard down socialization. Has nothing to do with your religious constitutional rights. Do you really feel so persecuted? Sure folks will be folks, and do stuff they shouldn't. That has nothing to do with their religious rights. Don't be absurd.

But may I ask, are you disregarding your local restrictions, or are you complying with them, like a good Christian minster should, setting an example for his flock? Are you obeying the size restrictions? Or flaunting them, and telling others it doesn't matter, like John MacArthur Jr. is doing? You seem to support his disregard of safety rules. Do you do that with your flock too?