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John's christology and the Dead Sea Scrolls

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@Clear,

Hello my friend,

Do happen to have access to a non-english version of the Book of Enoch chapter 48? @Vouthon and I are looking at two different translations. The one I'm looking at says that worship was in the form of psalms. His translation leaves out the word psalms. I'm wondering if there is a Greek source out there that is older and more reliable than the translations we're using? Maybe the word for psalms is included in the Greek version?

It's a shot in the dark, I hope you don't mind this request for assistance on such an obscure topic.

( reference : post number 56: John's christology and the Dead Sea Scrolls )

Blessings to you and yours none the less,
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
If I'm right, and the worship and prostration *is* defined in close proximity to the verses in question, then, something went wrong with the scholars cognitive assessment of what is happening in the vision in the text. Whether it's cherry picking, or confirmation bias, IDK.

We shall see, as stated I'm open to doing this and looking at the text in conjunction.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Its not that I don't trust any given translation but I don't think that a single translation may capture all the nuances of the text - and I also think the scholarship is important in contetualizing the text and in drawing parallels from other contemporanrous literature and/or linguistic usage that may shed further light upon it.
However you want to do it. My claim is not dependent on commentary and I doubt that anything they bring will invalidate the logic of my argument. It's just a matter of focus and avoiding a filibuster.

It's a really simple claim, the worship and prostration which is being spoken about in general terms is well defined in the text if we look at the entire thing. I expect that all the commentary will be irrelevant in this matter. But please, by all means... compile, collate, collect commentary, I'll be able to filter thru it and illustrate what is irrelevant as needed during the discussion.

Although, this does seem like you're stalling.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
We shall see, as stated I'm open to doing this and looking at the text in conjunction.
Please provide a translation so that the debate does not devolve into arguing over whose translation is more flawed.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I'll get back to you on it.
In the mean time, I'll be reading the Book of John making notes on the themes and imagery throughout looking for a pattern of simple, one-step salvation, that is only available *through* Jesus and no one / nothing else.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I am not moving on to another source unless we can come to some agreement about how to handle the previous source you brought. When/If we discuss the Self Glorification hymn, I'm going to be asking for the same things. I need a translation that you deem correct.

Fair dos, I'm down for that (post-Enoch - and I will need a bit of time to read through the text again, form my own thoughts and then see how the different scholars have 'exegised' it linguistically, narratively and with cross-referencing from parallels in other texts. I won't make this 'bag' down our discussion but its important for me, personally).

But on one condition - we will discuss the scholarly commentary and 'consider' variants / nuances in other translations alongside the "base translation" selected.

Otherwise, I still think we'll be missing things.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
In the mean time, I'll be reading the Book of John making notes on the themes and imagery throughout looking for a pattern of simple, one-step salvation, that is only available *through* Jesus and no one / nothing else.

A good idea, it will help us to 'meet' in the middle on better starting-ground when we resume our discussion.

EDIT: If I could ask for one extra thing - that last study is pretty useful in contextualizing John against a background in Jewish mysticism. It might be a good idea to have a look at it while reading John and forming your own thoughts (just to show parallels with other contemporary texts and in helping you to identify salient themes etc.)

This one by Kanagaraj:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/108225.pdf
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Clear,

Hello my friend, Do happen to have access to a non-english version of the Book of Enoch chapter 48? @Vouthon and I are looking at two different translations.
( reference : post number 56: John's christology and the Dead Sea Scrolls ) Blessings to you and yours none the less,

Hi @dybmh and @Vouthon

I was actually had just discovered and was reading this very thread when you sent me the post. I will check when I arrive home as I am at work now.
Both you and Vouthon are wonderful examples for the rest of us in that you are cordial and providing data supporting the various points.

I might point out that no one knows who wrote the dead sea scrolls. It has become obvious that #1, the essenes Josephus described are NOT the group in qumran. #2, the group in Qumran did NOT write the texts that are the dead sea scrolls. No one know who authored the scrolls. #3 I think Selinik is probably correct in his opinion that the dead sea scrolls were part of the Jerusalem library texts, hidden to protect them from the romans who were coming through in the early 70s a.d. #4 Translators often use the word "worship" in place of "honor" that is given to another being besides God the Father. Sometimes the use of the word "worship" for another being is uncomfortable in view of the Shema while a degree of "honor" given to another being does not have the same connotations.

@Vouthon, Just another thought. I very much like your application of early Judeo-Christian texts and Dead Sea Scrolls texts to the Messiah Jesus. The concept of the Father maintaining his position of worship over all other god-like beings described in the dead sea scrolls does not negate the role of savior and the "lessor" honor the Messiah is due to his role in creation which was delegated to him by his Father. In the same vein, the Messiah is also accorded honor for his role in carrying out the atonement, another role delegated to him by God, the Father. For example, in Discourse on Abbaton, the text relates to the concept that dybmh is concerned about, that is, the concept of Jesus being a "door" that mankind must access in order to be "saved" in the kingdom of God.

In abbaton, Jesus is explaining to the disciples, what happened at the creation of Adam. The important part is that the Father is about to put Adam's spirit into him and is reluctant since he knows that once the plan regarding mankind is set in motion, much evil and suffering on the earth is going to result from mankinds actions. Thus the text has God saying to his Son "If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.". Jesus said to the apostles : " And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."

The text makes clear that Jesus is the one who is sent to accomplish the atonement, which is the central part of the Father's plan. In this model, all prior great laws are with the intent of funnelling mankind toward the atonement as the gate through which mankind is to return to God the Father.

Jesus is the one accomplishing the Fathers plan of atonement for mankind, and it is in this way that the atonement is the "doorway" for mankind return to a primal moral state, having learned moral and social laws which are part of his preparation to live in a social heaven with others in a state of joy and harmony.

I will look when I get home for an enoch. I am sure I have looked to see what the words were in other languages but don't know if I found it on the net or if it is among my own texts.

I hope your spiritual journeys are good.

Clear
νεακφιω
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
put Adam's spirit into him
@Vouthon, this is significant, imho. Putting Spirit into something, is not Merkabah Mystism. But it is certainly in the realm of what's possible in the grand scope of what most people call Kaballah. I think this idea of sharing spirit one within the other is discussed in the early chapters of the Book of John. That's a little spooky to me looking at it from a mystical perspective... But, none the less, it puts a sharper focus on what sort of mystical abilities are being claimed by Jesus in the story.

Also of note, In one of the early chapters, somewhere, there is a mention of climbing Jacob's ladder. This is a foundational practice, it's not just Merkabah, which also builds on it. But it's practical applications are limitless.

Lastly, I noticed in the story that Jesus is making the miracles happen on Shabbos and on Festivals while in the process of committing a transgression. That is a very bad idea. Additionally, this young Jewish miracle worker is not among friends on Shabbos and isn't eating on Shabbos.... if I'm reading this as real and factual, I'm definitely concerned about the hero in the story.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
John 10:7-9... NIV

"Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Here's an interlinear of the KJV. The wording about jesus as the door/gate is repeated. This repetition indicates emphasis of an important Theme. The theme to me is put into sharp focus later in John 14:6, as I have previously postulated.

View attachment 40748

That said: I am indeed focused ( perhaps too closely ) on a just a few words in The Book of John. I honestly don't know the book at all. So I'll go ahead and read it ( *blush*, I don't even know how long it is... ) But I'll read it. I'll look for elements of humility in the story about the Sheep. But I'll also be looking for coinsistent imagery and themes indicating that salvation is a simple one step process which is only available thru Jesus. That's the idea of a gate. All ya gotta to do, is walk thru. Simple, one step, then you're on the other side... in the pasture of G-d. This is the part that seems most obviously incompatible with Judaism and if this idea is consistently threaded thru the Book of John.... it's check-mate on this debate :)
Maybe you shouldn't read it. Its got some things in it which may be antisemitic, particularly in the later chapters. People debate whether it is antisemitic. I can't say for sure, because it and all the gospels may be written by Jews to other Jews and not intended for people like me to read at all. I think it attempts to imagine a perfected Jew who is so perfect that the Pharisees are relatively corrupt. Its difficult to find the context in which its not smearing Jews. If you read the whole thing you may have to shake it off and walk away for a while.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Maybe you shouldn't read it. Its got some things in it which may be antisemitic, particularly in the later chapters. People debate whether it is antisemitic

The text is definitely written by a first century Jewish Christian, or more accurately the source material identified by scholars (the opening hymn, the signs gospel and the Passion narrative) stem in their core from an original pre-70 CE work that has been edited into its final literary form with interpolations and extra material circa. 90 CE by a Johaninne school (who also produced the Johannine Epistles which should be read in tandem with the gospel).

One of the problems is that translations sometimes say "the Jews" in a blanket manner when "the Judeans" is a more accurate rendering of the Greek in many cases.

Jew (Ioudaios) is often simply an adjective, as in "the Judaean land" (3:22) and other times it refers to religious authorities in opposition to Jesus.

So, the translations which refrain from rendering it in a "blanket" fashion are greatly preferable.

New Testament scholar J.G. Dunn writes:


The Fourth Evangelist is still operating within a context of intra-Jewish factional dispute, although the boundaries and definitions themselves are part of that dispute


One really must read the text in this context and not in light of post-first century Christian / Jewish relations.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I think this idea of sharing spirit one within the other is discussed in the early chapters of the Book of John

It brings to mind for me this verse, although not an early one:

John 14:20, “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you

Certainly, during the Last Supper discourse in the latter chapters, there is a lengthy oration by Jesus on a concept of spiritual "mutual indwelling", for example in chapter 15 where he says:

Whoever abides in me and I in him/her, you will bear much fruit

This dominant theme of bearing fruit is related to the doksa (glory) of the Father:

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples

By chapter 17, in the context of the high priestly prayer, Jesus states: "that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us...And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one".

So, yes, it does become a very important concept by the climactic point of the text. This is, understandably, a greatly discussed and pondered feature of its mysticism.

Quoting one Johannine scholar:


"The Johannine vision of mutual indwelling of God and the believer opens to all the possibility of experiencing the divine presence. What is particularly Johannine is the emphasis on reciprocal indwelling. God dwells in us, and we dwell in God. In his use of the verb “dwell” (menein) the Fourth Evangelist expresses the mystery of divine interiority known through experience, which is usually termed mysticism"

(Coloe (2007:193-201))​


Near the very end of the text, Jesus also breathes on the disciples to impart the Holy Spirit within them:

"when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

Earlier, he had promised the disciples that the Holy Spirit would dwell in them:

"This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you." (John 14:17)

Also of note, In one of the early chapters, somewhere, there is a mention of climbing Jacob's ladder.


Yup, I cited it earlier, that's in chapter 1 actually:


"Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” (John 1:50-51).​

In her commentary upon this verse, the Jewish scholar I cited earlier on - Adele Reinhartz - notes on this verse: "Angels … ascending and descending, an allusion to Jacob’s dream (Gen 28.12), implying that Jesus is the ladder connecting heaven and earth."

Compare with:


"And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it." (Genesis 28:12)​
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Lastly, I noticed in the story that Jesus is making the miracles happen on Shabbos and on Festivals while in the process of committing a transgression. That is a very bad idea. Additionally, this young Jewish miracle worker is not among friends on Shabbos and isn't eating on Shabbos.... if I'm reading this as real and factual, I'm definitely concerned about the hero in the story.

I'm thinking this is a reference to John 5:17, maybe?

That's a passage where Jesus replies to allegations that he has broken the Sabbath by stating: “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” A similar discussion is apparently held in rabbinic literature, e.g., Exodus Rabbah 11.10; 30.9 (i.e. the work God does on the sabbath is like a man carrying things within his own courtyard) and Genesis Rabbah 11:10 where Rabbi Hoshaiah is quoted as saying something along the lines of: "When you say that God rested on this day from all his works, it means that he rested from work on this world, but he did not rest from work on the unrighteous and the righteous".

I've read that this idea is also in the Mekhilta of Rabbi Ishmael, Shabbata 1.

Thus, the 'good work' of God in the administration of justice is viewed as ongoing: since the earth is his courtyard, He does not violate the mitzvot that prohibits carrying from private to public domains - because He is omnipresent, meaning all of the earth is his private domain etc. etc.

So, the passage here is not actually about 'sabbath-breaking' per se (nor is it encouraging or approving of sabbath-breaking) but rather it is yet another 'symbol' employed by John in favour of his elevated christology: he wants to show the reader that Jesus is exercising the same continuous divine activity of God on the sabbath in the sphere of 'doing good'.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @dybmh and @Vouthon

I did not find any complete electronic forms of chapter 48. There are other chapters, but not 48 that I found. I suppose a diligent search of google could bring one up in Greek.

My Charlesworth volumes do make note of important differences between main versions of enoch, but there are several versions.

I assume you both know the importance of the Enochian literature. An enoch remains in the eastern Canon even nowadays and, as Bruce tells us, was inside the Abyssinian Canon (standing immediately before the book of Job) and he brought home three copies of Ethiopian Enochs during his six years in Abyssinia.

It was popular to early Christians as well and the New Testament writers used it to quote from. Jude for example quotes enoch by name, but the other New Testament authors refer to enochian themes quite often. My Lawrence version notes over 128 references to enoch in the Ethiopian text. It was very popular in the Dead Sea Scroll library since early on, there were at least 11 copies found which represents its popularity . Outside of the Pentateuch, only psalms was present in double digits (13 copies) besides enoch.

You both have spoken of the Dead sea scrolls a fair amount. In the 50s Time magazine had an article on the Dead Sea Scrolls and touted them as the greatest religious discovery of that generation. However, once the secular texts became translated, the Jews did not like the "Christianity" within the text. For example, the community was led by twelve, had a presidency of three, celebrated a eucharistic type of "thank meal", engaged in a "baptism" of ceremonial washing, etc. (In fact, Teichner claimed the texts were indeed planted by Christians...).

Interestingly, many modern Christians did not like this discovery because it didn’t fit their pre-concieved notions that "Christianity" didn't exist before Christ.

The only ones who seemed to like it were historians and restorationists since it fit many of their theories perfectly well.

Having said this, Early Christians would, I think have been perfectly able to use much of it as they saw themselves as a restoration of a true form of original Judaism.

For example, the apostolic Father Ignatius tells the Magnesians that “It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity,...” Ignatius to the Magnesians 10:3.

It is inside such a lens that Jesus came, not to destroy the actual “real” laws of God, but to restore the true meaning to the laws, which, in their eyes, was Christianity, as a true form of Judaism. It has even been suggested that Acts 6:7 had reference to priests of Qumran “So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.”

The reason to make these points is that the early Jews that adopted Christianity did not see themselves as leaving Judaism. Instead, they were joining a movement that represented the true form of Judaism. They were perfectly able to use their prior scriptures, looking at them through the Christian "jewish" lens. For example, though I Enoch started out as a “Jewish” document, it was certainly adopted and used by the Christians more than the later rabbinic Judaism.

Once rabbinic Judaism issued its prohibition against any study of pre-creation themes, then much of the early knowledge and traditions (and literature) having to do with conditions prior to creation, would have been lost among orthodox rabbinic judaism within one generation. Enochian literature would certainly fall under this prohibition since much of its themes have to do with conditions and happening that took place prior to creation of the earth.

It's late and I will stop here. I will have to review some of your last posts to bring myself up to speed to understand your discussion. Good luck.

Clear
ειτζνεφυω
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Maybe you shouldn't read it. Its got some things in it which may be antisemitic, particularly in the later chapters. People debate whether it is antisemitic. I can't say for sure, because it and all the gospels may be written by Jews to other Jews and not intended for people like me to read at all. I think it attempts to imagine a perfected Jew who is so perfect that the Pharisees are relatively corrupt. Its difficult to find the context in which its not smearing Jews. If you read the whole thing you may have to shake it off and walk away for a while.
Good advice, and very kind.

I already finished it though. No worries, I don't read it as anti-semetic. I'm reading it sympathetically, looking for patterns. However I am still shaking off the implications of the story when viewed thru a mystical lens.

Staying focused on the topic, I will report, that after reading the whole book, I am even more convinced than ever that praying to JC in the manner prescribed is not Kosher for Jewish people. And speaking to your postulate that the narrowing of gate is a sign of humility, I did not see anything like that at all in The Book of John. What I did see was a conistent *pairing* of JC-and-Father as the *only* way to be absolved from sin without the requisite atonement and purification that is described in the Torah.

This *pairing* is not the only way. Technically, maybe it would have worked to bring the disciples who were *in* the JC-Father couplet to the gate, maybe they could have tecnically been able to pass through this gate... maybe. But it's not the only way, because the auspicious time that JC was waiting for in the story repeats in a cycle. The auspicious time recurs. The procession of the angels is on rotation. The same conditions that allow for the loophole would happen again, If I understand the mechnanism that was described and attempted to be exploited in the story.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I'm thinking this is a reference to John 5:17, maybe?

That's a passage where Jesus replies to allegations that he has broken the Sabbath by stating: “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” A similar discussion is apparently held in rabbinic literature, e.g., Exodus Rabbah 11.10; 30.9 (i.e. the work God does on the sabbath is like a man carrying things within his own courtyard) and Genesis Rabbah 11:10 where Rabbi Hoshaiah is quoted as saying something along the lines of: "When you say that God rested on this day from all his works, it means that he rested from work on this world, but he did not rest from work on the unrighteous and the righteous".The trangressions go deeper than desecrating Shabbos, although that is happening in the story a well.

I've read that this idea is also in the Mekhilta of Rabbi Ishmael, Shabbata 1.

Thus, the 'good work' of God in the administration of justice is viewed as ongoing: since the earth is his courtyard, He does not violate the mitzvot that prohibits carrying from private to public domains - because He is omnipresent, meaning all of the earth is his private domain etc. etc.

So, the passage here is not actually about 'sabbath-breaking' per se (nor is it encouraging or approving of sabbath-breaking) but rather it is yet another 'symbol' employed by John in favour of his elevated christology: he wants to show the reader that Jesus is exercising the same continuous divine activity of God on the sabbath in the sphere of 'doing good'.

The transgressions go beyond desecrating Shabbos, although, that is certainly what is described in the story.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Instead, they were joining a movement that represented the true form of Judaism.
Yes, I can understand why a Jewish person at that time would have been confused. However *pairing* is not Kosher. So anytime a prayer is phrased "To the Father in Jesus' name", that's not Kosher and is a form of idol worship. This is an obscure rule, many dont know it. And honestly, I'm not qualified to say much about it except to claim that the rule exists, and it is not a kosher practice to do things in pairs. That means on a special occasion, 1 drink to celebrate is fine. 3 drinks is fine to celebrate. 2 drinks? nope. It's obscure and weird, but from a mystical perspective perfectly valid.

However, attempting to skip over the atonement and puification process via a loophole that's a different matter. The people JC was preaching to, they were at the mikvah to be purified. (Presumably) so they would know that consenting to go into the JC-Father pair for absolution instead of doing the work themselves is a shortcut, at best. It would have been common sense that it's risky to exploit the loophole and not to do the work themselves.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
OK... reading this now. After that, I feel comfortable discussing any of the souces you've brought so far. having read The Book John, I now have a good idea of the mystical mechanics of the story.

I'm still thinking that it would be good for you to locate a translation of Enoch for us to use if it is important for your arguments that praying to or through an Angel is kosher.

Edit: @Vouthon, did you trick me into agreeing to read 300+ pages before debating this further? Aye-Caramba. I'll skim it, but I retract my commitment to reading the whole thing.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Good advice, and very kind.

I already finished it though. No worries, I don't read it as anti-semetic. I'm reading it sympathetically, looking for patterns. However I am still shaking off the implications of the story when viewed thru a mystical lens.

Staying focused on the topic, I will report, that after reading the whole book, I am even more convinced than ever that praying to JC in the manner prescribed is not Kosher for Jewish people. And speaking to your postulate that the narrowing of gate is a sign of humility, I did not see anything like that at all in The Book of John. What I did see was a conistent *pairing* of JC-and-Father as the *only* way to be absolved from sin without the requisite atonement and purification that is described in the Torah.

This *pairing* is not the only way. Technically, maybe it would have worked to bring the disciples who were *in* the JC-Father couplet to the gate, maybe they could have tecnically been able to pass through this gate... maybe. But it's not the only way, because the auspicious time that JC was waiting for in the story repeats in a cycle. The auspicious time recurs. The procession of the angels is on rotation. The same conditions that allow for the loophole would happen again, If I understand the mechnanism that was described and attempted to be exploited in the story.
You refer to the prayer in chapter 17. I see your point, but you haven't considered that the writer could be gnostic. The gnostics didn't believe Jesus actually existed as a man and was an abstraction. Later on Christians denounced gnosticism, but you can see its influence in many NT verses. Scholars have written a little about this, but not everything is known. Tomorrow someone could overturn new information that changes everything.

Also some of the words of this prayer seem impenetrable to me, since I have little context for them. For example the term 'Glory' could refer to a phasing in of a new reality -- the concept of becoming more real and less abstract, or it may refer to the light of revelation of God, or it may refer to honor of some sort. The difficulty for me is compounded by the myriad possibilities of who writes John and under what conditions. Is it heretical? In certain contexts it is, but maybe not in all. If Jesus is a being, then I see your objection, however the original intent of the writing of this part is unclear to me.

...However *pairing* is not Kosher. So anytime a prayer is phrased "To the Father in Jesus' name", that's not Kosher and is a form of idol worship....
This was a comment you made to Clear. The intent of "in Jesus name" could also have several meanings. It is unclear whether its pairing.
 
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