Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[lilithu]

I propose a third option here. He believed he was a true prophet but he actually wasn't.

And what makes someone a TRUE prophet, OBJECTIVELY speaking?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Only if you believe in the equal merit of all purported claims to the truth.

I would have to disagree, though. Some statements are inherently true, some are false. Some opinions are actually better than others and we are called upon by our own levels of intellectual honesty to figure out why. Some revelations are real, some are false. Some prophets are real, some are false. It's worth the effort to try and discern the difference, imho.

Ah, but the "truthfulness" and "falseness" of something are irrelevant in what I was trying to convey. Our actions and voices speak of our individual and unique place in time and space; even a "falsehood" represents a piece of that. It reveals (revelation) and reflects a piece of reality--God.

We are Prophets of God not in our claims, lies, actions, etc., but by our lives.

 

[Katzpur]

Also a history of racism, anti-gay bigotry and second class citizenship for women.

I'm a second-class citizen! I'm 59 years old and nobody has ever bothered to tell me that!

 

[Bathsheba]

I'm a second-class citizen! I'm 59 years old and nobody has ever bothered to tell me that!

ah, the old Stockholm syndrome :sorry1: j/k

 

[Bishka]

Again, it's not like you're on a bus and someone has just said, "You're LDS? You know what doesn't make sense about your religion?"

That would be entirely inappropriate. This, however, is an appropriate venue for just such a conversation. I would think that only people who found such discussions interesting and stimulating would stick around.

The problem is you don't think this happens.

Well sorry to burst your bubble, it has. People who have known me less then a day and found out I was LDS have gone on about it. It's happened several times, of course I expect it.

 

[KingM]

The problem is you don't think this happens.

Well sorry to burst your bubble, it has. People who have known me less then a day and found out I was LDS have gone on about it. It's happened several times, of course I expect it.

That's terrible, and I'm sorry. But what does that have to do with your willingly coming to a religious debate board and then being offended when people disagree with your religion and tell you it's wrong?

 

[Bathsheba]

We are Prophets of God not in our claims, lies, actions, etc., but by our lives.

I think I just sustained an Acid flashback. :rainbow1: (now is the time for rainbow smilie if I ever saw one)

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I think I just sustained an Acid flashback.

I suggest a Tums for that.

 

[lilithu]

My view is that due to the history of LDS, and some of its doctrines, it's prone to crackpots declaring themselves the True Prophets and having a direct line to God. Dangerous stuff.

My understanding of the LDS church structure is admittedly limited, but I think there is only one "the Prophet" at any given time, and that person acquires that title by being recognized as such by the other church leaders. Hardly an environment conducive to crackpots declaring themselves prophets.

Also a history of racism, anti-gay bigotry and second class citizenship for women.

True. So that makes the LDS different from other people how??

 

[Autodidact]

That a group of people lived somewhere in the western hemisphere, and there are people today who are descenants of the survivors. That's it. We don't know exactly where they lived, how many survived, and who they mixed with.

Now you wouldn't get a little careless with a poor gentile who hasn't survived reading the whole book, would you? After all, I can always ask my friend, Google. The BoM tells us a lot more than that, doesn't it? I mean, it's hundreds of pages long, and sets forth a history of these mythical peoples, doesn't it? Doesn't it describe great battles, with thousands of casualties? Doesn't it say, for example "And it came to pass that they [the Nephites] did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land [g] southward to the land [h] northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south, to the sea [j] north, from the sea [k] west, to the sea [l] east." Helaman 3:8 In fact, doesn't the LDS Church state in its introduction that the Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians? But back to the BoM, doesn't it describe in fact tens or even hundreds of thousands of casualties in the final battle? So you'd have to have a large population to support such a large army to have that number of casualties, wouldn't you? And doesn't it describe lands and cities full of inhabitants? An urban people, with a large population in many cities? So, unless you discount the veracity of the BoM, doesn't it in fact tell you a lot more than you have led me to believe?

 

[Autodidact]

Nope.

So when did they change that then? Because for at least 100 years, official Mormon doctrine, from Joseph smith on down to the 80's, was that American Indians are descendants of Lamanites, in fact, are Lamanites. Hmm, were I inclined to religion, I would certainly have doubts about one that changed its basic doctrine based on its primary holy text like that.

 

[KingM]

She didn't say the "title page" said that. She said the "introduction" said that. This is from the introduction to the Book of Mormon on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

I assume this is an honest mistake on your part? I'm not even a member of your church and I knew right away that the published version of the Book of Mormon does, in fact, make this claim.

In any event, as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints web site clearly shows, this is the official position of the church and it is printed in every Book of Mormon purchased or given away by your missionaries. I don't understand why LDS are always shouting, "Come to us to find out what we believe." Are you really surprised that people go to your official publications to find out what LDS believe instead of online apologists?

You might not believe that American Indians were descended from Lamanites, but it's clear that the people who run your church do.

 

[Bishka]

She didn't say the "title page" said that. She said the "introduction" said that. This is from the introduction to the Book of Mormon on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:.

So where is this?

I clicked on the link and it led me directly to the LDS Church homepage, but nothing in particular.
I do apologize for the mistake then, I did not know it was an official teaching, as I have heard many differing views on the subject in Church and elsewhere. (I don't have the BOM memorized, and it was my view that it was more of the Southern American people.) I will bow out now.

 

[KingM]

Sorry, here is the link. But you could open up your Book of Mormon and take a look, right?

Did you really not know this was the introduction to the Book of Mormon?

 

[Bishka]

Did you really not know this was the introduction to the Book of Mormon?

Like I said, I do not have it memorized, and second, there have been differing views on the subject.

 

[KingM]

Like I said, I do not have it memorized, and second, there have been differing views on the subject.

Still. Someone said the introduction to the Book of Mormon used the phrase "principal ancestors" and you said it didn't. I found that link in two seconds with Google. There may be other views, but that is the official view of the LDS church as published in the book itself. You can see why people are arguing against that point on boards like this.

 

[Bishka]

Still. Someone said the introduction to the Book of Mormon used the phrase "principal ancestors" and you said it didn't. I found that link in two seconds with Google. There may be other views, but that is the official view of the LDS church as published in the book itself. You can see why people are arguing against that point on boards like this.

Which I retracted after you proved it did. It's done and over with, drop it.

 

[KingM]

Which I retracted after you proved it did. It's done and over with, drop it.

You're right. I apologize for harping on it.

 

[Autodidact]

Alright then, that settled, the BoM says that Lamanites and Nephites were quite populous, enough to have tens of thousands of them die in battle, that they lived in many large cities, and inhabited the land from sea to sea and from sea to sea, and that they are the ancestors of today's American Indians, right?

Further, that they rode chariots, smelted iron, grew wheat, herded cattle, etc. etc., and that they spoke and wrote Hebrew and Egyptian, right?

So Polaris was incorrect when s/he said that all we know is that some unknown number of them lived somewhere in the western hemisphere and left some survivors, right? According to the BoM (not to mention the LDS Church) we know a heck of a lot more than that, right?

 

[Popeyesays]

Of course, horses and cattle were NOT native to North American any longer, those ancestral forms having died out in the Pleistocene.

Regards,

Scott