Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[cardero]

Good morning Melissa G.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, that is the one.

Similar references are found in early Jewish and Christian poetry. Maybe Joseph plagiarized from one of these instead:

Descent of Inanna​

"Why, pray, have you come to the 'Land of no return,' on the road whose traveller returns never?"​

Pyramid Texts​

"May you go on the roads of the western ones [the dead]; They who go on them [travellers] do not return."​

Harris Papyrus​

"There is nobody who returns from there."​

"Behold there is nobody who has gone, who has returned."​

 

[SoyLeche]

Similar references are found in early Jewish and Christian poetry. Maybe Joseph plagiarized from one of these instead:

Descent of Inanna​

"Why, pray, have you come to the 'Land of no return,' on the road whose traveller returns never?"​

Pyramid Texts​

"May you go on the roads of the western ones [the dead]; They who go on them [travellers] do not return."​

Harris Papyrus​

"There is nobody who returns from there."​

"Behold there is nobody who has gone, who has returned."​

And, as has already been mentioned, Job.

 

[SoyLeche]

So what, what ?

It's like your boat issue you had before. The BoM claims that nobody else at the time in that area knew how to build such a boat. Nobody else at that time in that area knew how to build such a boat. Whowouldathunk?

The BoM claims to be quoting Isaiah. It quotes Isaiah. Whowouldathunk?

I'm sure you actually have more problem with the words chosen in the translation, but since we really have no idea how the actual translation happened, that's another dead end.

I always find it a bit funny when people say "well, ol' Joe just copied from the Bible and Shakesphere". Well, fine, but where did he get the other 95% of the book from then?

This is always a fun read (nod to Katzpur who first introduced me to this): One Day in the Life of Joseph Smith, Translator Extraordinaire of the Book of Mormon

 

[Bathsheba]

but since we really have no idea how the actual translation happened, that's another dead end.

The suits at the Church Office Building should use this picture to help people get a glimpse into the so-called translation of the so-called ancient record. :slap:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ,, 1887, p. 12.)

I always find it a bit funny when people say "well, ol' Joe just copied from the Bible and Shakesphere". Well, fine, but where did he get the other 95% of the book from then?

I bet he had a ghost writter. :help:

 

[SoyLeche]

The suits at the Church Office Building should use this picture to help people get a glimpse into the so-called translation of the so-called ancient record. :slap:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ,, 1887, p. 12.)




I bet he had a ghost writter. :help:

Then it's easy - God wanted the wording to be the same as the KJV. Problem solved

 

[Bathsheba]

Then it's easy - God wanted the wording to be the same as the KJV. Problem solved

LMAO, golly gee, aint it grand how a testimonkey works!

 

[cardero]

Similar references are found in early Jewish and Christian poetry. Maybe Joseph plagiarized from one of these instead:

Descent of Inanna​

"Why, pray, have you come to the 'Land of no return,' on the road whose traveller returns never?"​

Pyramid Texts​

"May you go on the roads of the western ones [the dead]; They who go on them [travellers] do not return."​

Harris Papyrus​

"There is nobody who returns from there."​

"Behold there is nobody who has gone, who has returned."​

No fair, you were already prepared for my example.
Well I thank you for the information because I was always curious about that when I read it.

 

[SoyLeche]

LMAO, golly gee, aint it grand how a testimonkey works!

Yup. It sure is.

Either that, or you could believe that Joseph Smith had all of the Isaiah chapters memorized - and was just reciting them with his face in a hat. Or he had a Bible in the hat, but it would be kinda hard to read with as much light blocked out as he could get, not to mention getting the pages turned without anyone noticing (maybe he was flipping pages with his nose ).

Or, you could say that David Whitmer was lying about it, but if you believed that - why would you bring it up?

 

[Bathsheba]

but since we really have no idea how the actual translation happened

Or, you could say that David Whitmer was lying about it, but if you believed that - why would you bring it up?

I don't know who is lying, but if one thinks the book of mormon is a fiction then one might conclude somebody is full of crap. I think lds-inc should stop saying ol joe translated the so-called ancient record and start saying that he dictated from words appearing on magical stones, ya know, since there really wasn’t any translating actually taking place. Now it is your turn to spin.

 

[SoyLeche]

I don't know who is lying, but if one thinks the book of mormon is a fiction then one might conclude somebody is full of crap. I think lds-inc should stop saying ol joe translated the so-called ancient record and start saying that he dictated from words appearing on magical stones, ya know, since there really wasn’t any translating actually taking place. Now it is your turn to spin.

It was written in one language, Joseph Smith provided it in English. I'd say that counts as "translating", no matter what the process was.

There aren't all that many accounts of how this went down. Most of them do include the seer stone and a hat though. Martin Harris tells of a time that he replaced Joesph's seer stone with another that looked like it. Joseph tried to translate, and nothing came to him.

If you are interested, I'd suggest taking a look at the book "By the Hand of Mormon". It's published by Oxford Press, so you can have some faith that the scholarly work involved in the book is acceptible. It's probably the best academic work on the Book of Mormon out there. It's definitley better than anything you'll find on the internet.

 

[Bathsheba]

I'd say that counts as "translating", no matter what the process was.

Of course you would, you have to twist it to conform to the thing in which you have invested so much.

 

[Bishka]

Of course you would, you have to twist it to conform to the thing in which you have invested so much.

So I still don't understand what your point in participating in this thread is, do you like telling people that their wrong?

 

[Smoke]

What I don't understand about the "translation" process is, if Joseph received the translation by revelation, what was the point of the golden plates being revealed to him, and his showing them to other people, and all that?

And why don't Mormons use seer stones today?

 

[Bathsheba]

What I don't understand about the "translation" process is, if Joseph received the translation by revelation, what was the point of the golden plates being revealed to him, and his showing them to other people, and all that?

What exactly was ol joe translating if he was looking at a rock in a hat?

 

[Melissa G]

Source data, please. I'd like to look it up. Can you quote the passage for us?

" Creating Biblical Figures - By Thomas L. Thompson"


Melissa G

 

[SoyLeche]

What I don't understand about the "translation" process is, if Joseph received the translation by revelation, what was the point of the golden plates being revealed to him, and his showing them to other people, and all that?

And why don't Mormons use seer stones today?

I have no idea.

Who says that they don't? I don't know of any examples, but that doesn't mean there aren't any, or that there won't be any in the future.

 

[SoyLeche]

What exactly was ol joe translating if he was looking at a rock in a hat?

The Golden Plates, of course.

 

[SoyLeche]

Of course you would, you have to twist it to conform to the thing in which you have invested so much.

I'm not twisting anything.

trans·late

/trænsˈleɪt, trænz-, ˈtræns

leɪt, ˈtrænz-/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trans-leyt, tranz-, trans-leyt, tranz-]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationverb, -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1.to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own: to translate Spanish.
2.to change the form, condition, nature, etc., of; transform; convert: to translate wishes into deeds.
3.to explain in terms that can be more easily understood; interpret.
4.to bear, carry, or move from one place, position, etc., to another; transfer.
5.Mechanics. to cause (a body) to move without rotation or angular displacement; subject to translation.
6.Computers. to convert (a program, data, code, etc.) from one form to another: to translate a FORTRAN program into assembly language.
7.Telegraphy. to retransmit or forward (a message), as by a relay.
8.Ecclesiastical. a.to move (a bishop) from one see to another. b.to move (a see) from one place to another. c.to move (relics) from one place to another.
9.to convey or remove to heaven without natural death.
10.Mathematics. to perform a translation on (a set, function, etc.).
11.to express the value of (a currency) in a foreign currency by applying the exchange rate.
12.to exalt in spiritual or emotional ecstasy; enrapture. –verb (used without object)
13.to provide or make a translation; act as translator.
14.to admit of translation: The Greek expression does not translate easily into English.

 

[Bathsheba]

The Golden Plates, of course.

eta: removed snark