Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[ayani]

Correction: Many Mormons believe that the Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" to the American Indians. If you're going to quote us please do so accurately

Genetic, linguistic, and archeological evidence hasn't done much to advance either side of the argument.

The fact is we don't know where the Lamanites settled, which directions they dispersed, how many Lamanites existed, what form of language they spoke, and who if anyone they encountered and mixed with. Without that information its hard to find any evidence that sheds much light on either side.

this is, in part, what i'm talking about....

 

[KingM]

Correction: Many Mormons believe that the Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" to the American Indians. If you're going to quote us please do so accurately

Sorry, you're right. I should have looked that up rather than pulling it off the top of my head.

Genetic, linguistic, and archeological evidence hasn't done much to advance either side of the argument.

Well, most people would disagree with you. The evidence points to ancient Siberians being the colonizers of the New World with a handful of unanswered data points which also don't support semitic orgins.

 

[Aqualung]

Well, most people unlearned people who haven't studied the actual research would disagree with you. The evidence points to ancient Siberians being the colonizers of the New World with a handful of unanswered data points which also don't support semitic orgins.

Fixed it.

 

[Polaris]

Well, most people would disagree with you. Some of the evidence points to ancient Siberians being colonizers of the New World with a handful of unanswered data points which also don't support semitic orgins.

Fixed that one too.

 

[ayani]

**Mod Post**

please keep things civil, and in discussible form.
while debate and discussion is encouraged, we will not tolerate rude, insulting, hostile, or inflammatory posts.



​

 

[KingM]

Please don't edit my comments under a quote that says that I wrote them. That is uncivil behavior. You may disagree with me all you would like, but do so honestly.

As for the "unlearned" who believe that the Americas were populated by Siberians, I'm talking about the general consensus that you would find in National Geographic. I see nothing from any source other than Mormonism that would find any semitic origin whatsoever.

 

[Aqualung]

Please don't edit my comments under a quote that says that I wrote them. That is uncivil behavior. You may disagree with me all you would like, but do so honestly.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I also thought it would be obvious enough to all seeing that you didn't actually say it that it wouldn't be dishonest. But, now that I know your feelings about it, I will refrain in the future.

The very first google link upon seraching for the ancestry of native americans denies what you say:

At some point within the last 35,000 years, prehistoric humans walked from the tip of Asia across a land bridge to Alaska, from where they spread through the unpeopled continents of North and South America. What else do we know about the arrival of these earliest Native Americans? Not much.

Working with a much larger dataset than the earlier studies, Merriwether found that the four lineages divide into nine distinct genetic subtypes.

GETTING TO THE NEW WORLD: Distribution of Founding Lineage in Native Americans

When the world was still in the grip of the last ice age some 15,000 years ago, an intrepid group of Stone-Age mammoth hunters tracked their prey over the bleak Arctic tundra. Crossing the stretch of land which then connected Siberia to Alaska, these early pioneers thereby became the first people to set foot in the New World.

Or did they?

This romantic image of the first Americans has captivated archaeologists for almost a century, but in the last few years it has started to give way to a very different picture. Thousands of years ago America may already have been a melting pot of ethnic groups from across the Pacific, north-east Asia, and even Europe.

Solutrean culture


The jury is still out on this one. I stand by my correction of your statement, even if not the means of correcting it.

 

[SoyLeche]

Please don't edit my comments under a quote that says that I wrote them. That is uncivil behavior. You may disagree with me all you would like, but do so honestly.

As for the "unlearned" who believe that the Americas were populated by Siberians, I'm talking about the general consensus that you would find in National Geographic. I see nothing from any source other than Mormonism that would find any semitic origin whatsoever.

You need to look a little harder.

Ancient American: Archaeology of the Americas before Columbus

That's what a quick Google search comes up with. I'd have to look in a book I have to give you other non-mormon sources that believe that there was a semitic influence in Ancient America. I haven't really looked at this link, so I don't know if it is worth anything or not.

 

[MomtoFour]

That's an extremely narrow and selective piece with which to judge (see my statement above). Also if that's your judging criteria then Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and several other would also be eliminated from prophethood.

Polygamy is just one example, but it is a major "fruit" of Joseph Smith.

Also, I see a distinction between God calling prophets who practiced polygamy as part of their culture (I believe God tries to meet us where we are) and God telling prophets to practice polygamy, which is what Joseph Smith claimed.

 

[Polaris]

Polygamy is just one example, but it is a major "fruit" of Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure how you can categorize it as a "major" fruit, it was one of the thousands of fruits that can be attributed to Joseph.

Also, I see a distinction between God calling prophets who practiced polygamy as part of their culture (I believe God tries to meet us where we are) and God telling prophets to practice polygamy, which is what Joseph Smith claimed.

The point is though that polygamy, when approved by God is not evil, therefore you can't point to polygamy as an evil fruit of Joseph's work. Unless you can prove that God didn't command Joseph to practice polygamy, or that Joseph abused the practice of polygamy for selfish purposes you can't objectively label it as an evil fruilt.

 

[MomtoFour]

I'm not sure how you can categorize it as a "major" fruit, it was one of the thousands of fruits that can be attributed to Joseph.

I count it as a major fruit because it was important to the early Mormon church. It was central to their beliefs.

The point is though that polygamy, when approved by God is not evil, therefore you can't point to polygamy as an evil fruit of Joseph's work. Unless you can prove that God didn't command Joseph to practice polygamy, or that Joseph abused the practice of polygamy for selfish purposes you can't objectively label it as an evil fruilt.

Joseph Smith married other men's wives. He coerced a teenager into marrying him by telling her that her family would obtain exhaltation if she did. He married women behind his first wife's back and then lied about it. Brigham Young taught that a man had to have at least three wives in order to achieve the highest level of exhaltation and that a woman could righteously leave her husband if she could get a man with a higher level of priesthood to marry her. He sent a man off on a mission and then married the man's wife and moved her and the sons she had with her first husband to Utah.

 

[KingM]

I count it as a major fruit because it was important to the early Mormon church. It was central to their beliefs.

Joseph Smith married other men's wives. He coerced a teenager into marrying him by telling her that her family would obtain exhaltation if she did. He married women behind his first wife's back and then lied about it. Brigham Young taught that a man had to have at least three wives in order to achieve the highest level of exhaltation and that a woman could righteously leave her husband if she could get a man with a higher level of priesthood to marry her. He sent a man off on a mission and then married the man's wife and moved her and the sons she had with her first husband to Utah.

You realize you just set yourself up for hours of digging through books to locate sources for all of that, don't you. And I thought you were supposed to be packing for a trip.

 

[Polaris]

I count it as a major fruit because it was important to the early Mormon church. It was central to their beliefs.

Then you greatly misunderstand the Mormon Church. Polygamy has never been at the center of our beliefs. Jesus Christ is and always has been the center of our beliefs.

Joseph Smith married other men's wives. He coerced a teenager into marrying him by telling her that her family would obtain exhaltation if she did.

There is a significant difference between marriage that you refer to, and the sealing ordinance. Joseph was sealed to these women for eternal, not earthly purposes. There is no evidence that he had intimate relationships with them. He "coerced" her? I would argue that a more accurate statement would be that he promised her certain blessing that had been revealed to him. Again can you prove that he didn't receive such a revelation? She wasn't forced to be sealed to him, in fact by her own account Joseph was a very considerate and compassionate person.

Brigham Young taught that a man had to have at least three wives in order to achieve the highest level of exhaltation and that a woman could righteously leave her husband if she could get a man with a higher level of priesthood to marry her. He sent a man off on a mission and then married the man's wife and moved her and the sons she had with her first husband to Utah.

Sources please.

 

[MomtoFour]

The best source on polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith (and to some extent by Brigham Young, since he married a number of Smith's wives after JS died) is Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness. The whole book is fascinating, but the intro highlights many of the issues with polygamy in the early Mormon church.

As for Helen Mar Kimball, it may have been more of a dynastic marriage, but she still wasn't allowed to go to dances or associate with young men as she had before she was married.

And in my mind, the claim that polygamous marriages were only to seal people to Joseph Smith for eternity does not make it much better. It makes God look like a junior-high girl, concerned about who is part of the "in" crowd. Why isn't it enough to have relationship with God and Jesus? Why are you more exhalted if you are connected to a prophet?

 

[Polaris]

And in my mind, the claim that polygamous marriages were only to seal people to Joseph Smith for eternity does not make it much better. It makes God look like a junior-high girl, concerned about who is part of the "in" crowd. Why isn't it enough to have relationship with God and Jesus? Why are you more exhalted if you are connected to a prophet?

We believe that God is a God of order and law. We believe that one requirement to get to the highest degree of heaven is to enter into eternal marriage (ie be sealed to our spouse). This sealing ordinance is an ordinance required for exaltation similar to baptism.

 

[MomtoFour]

We believe that God is a God of order and law. We believe that one requirement to get to the highest degree of heaven is to enter into eternal marriage (ie be sealed to our spouse). This sealing ordinance is an ordinance required for exaltation similar to baptism.

Yes, but why was it important for Helen Mar Kimball's family to be connected by marriage to Joseph Smith? Why wouldn't their exaltation be the same if she married a regular righteous Mormon man?

 

[Bishka]

Why wouldn't their exaltation be the same if she married a regular righteous Mormon man?

It was the same.


Before you go claiming outrageous statements, please cite your information.

 

[DeepShadow]

Right, Mormons are in full retreat from the claim that Jews settled the Americas and were their "principal inhabitants." Genetic, linguistic, and archeological evidence has punctured that theory. The fall-back is that the Book of Mormon refers only to a very small group of people.

Which is to say, Mormons have returned to a claim first posited by none other than Joseph Smith (in the Millenial Star) that the Book of Mormon peoples were not the only ancestors of the Native Americans. Rather, they were one story among many.

This view was promptly forgotten by mainstream Mormons who--like most people--preferred gross oversimplifications, but has been revived from time to time by scholars from Hugh Nibley to Bruce R. McConkie.

This is hardly backpedaling. Rather, it is the Sunday School crowd coming to admit what the people who did their homework already knew.

 

[Katzpur]

Precisely. Why should Mormons care if other "Christians" consider Mormons "Christian" or not?

How can we spread what we believe to be Jesus Christ's gospel if other Christians have managed to convince everyone that we don't even worship Jesus Christ? It's not the label, "Christian," that's so important. When the implication is that we don't accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world, people who would otherwise be interested in what we have to say will simply dismiss us without even giving us a chance. What may be even worse is that by saying we're not Christians, they're accusing us of lying and misrepresenting ourselves.

 

[jonny]

Joseph Smith married other men's wives.

One of them was my great-grandmother. Do you have a problem with that? I don't and it directly impacts my family and its history. How does this impact you?