Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[ljam49]

Essentially you did. You referred to Christian martyrs and Mormon martyrs. That alone would be offensive to any Mormon. And when it gets right down to it, I've know very few Baptists whom I would consider to be Christians. Christians, for one thing, are not supposed to be judgmental.

Let me guess. If someone came on a post and put words in your mouth you would just roll over and act like they didn't? I think not. What you read into it and the exact words I used are not the same.

I've know very few Baptists whom I would consider to be Christians

I have nothing to do with that.

Christians, for one thing, are not supposed to be judgmental.

This statement is a reflection of not understanding biblical concepts on judgement. Thing about it is, mormons want to be called Christians and this is what the Bible says about judging:

I Corithians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

This refers to judging those who say they are Christian. Those outside are unbelievers who would not fall under the Bibles authority.

To abuse the scripture I would assume most would use the scripture:

Matthew 7:1 " Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

There are several applications for this, as in, judging others for the same sins you are committing, nor judge the unsaved, they are spiritually dead.

As far as me being judgemental, I am doing what the Bible instructs me to do. Mormons claim to be Christian so I must use the scriptures to determine what the guideline is, then discussions with mormons to find their stance and make judgement as to whether it matches what scripture says. You want to turn that into a negative that is your perrogative. But just remember what you accuse me of you do yourself. You make decisions about others judging them against your own beliefs.

 

[Katzpur]

Let me guess. If someone came on a post and put words in your mouth you would just roll over and act like they didn't? I think not. What you read into it and the exact words I used are not the same.

I'm sorry but you said "Christian martyrs" and "Mormon martyrs." If they are the same, why did you make a distinction?

I have nothing to do with that.

Oh believe me, you have a lot to do with it. I know a few Baptists on this forum who are pretty decent people, but in my overall experiences, most of them are very much like you. And I consider you to be very un-Christian.

As far as me being judgemental, I am doing what the Bible instructs me to do. Mormons claim to be Christian so I must use the scriptures to determine what the guideline is, then discussions with mormons to find their stance and make judgement as to whether it matches what scripture says. You want to turn that into a negative that is your perrogative. But just remember what you accuse me of you do yourself. You make decisions about others judging them against your own beliefs.

The only judgment I make about anyone is how they treat others. I don't condemn people whose interpretation of scripture is different from mine. I don't categorize them as "saved" and "unsaved" (as if it is ANYBODY's pregogative to be so presumptuous). There is enough worth in my own religion for me to share that I don't even have the time to spend trashing anybody else's. People who have to undercut someone else's position in order to make their own position look good don't have much of a position in the first place, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and by the way, you didn't answer my questions so I'll repeat them: Please provide us with the Biblical definition of a Christian. When you've done that, give us a few examples of the "doctrinal differences" you see between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

 

[ljam49]

Katzpur:

I'm sorry but you said "Christian martyrs" and "Mormon martyrs." If they are the same, why did you make a distinction?

I never said that they were the same. I do not believe they are.

Oh believe me, you have a lot to do with it. I know a few Baptists on this forum who are pretty decent people, but in my overall experiences, most of them are very much like you. And I consider you to be very un-Christian.

Thing about it is, if you think I have anything to do with it, its all in your mind. I have not went out of my way to hurt you in any fashion. You think you know me from a few posts you have seen me make? Now that is what I call being judgemental. You do not know me, how I feel, or what I practice in my life.

You give the impression that you are a person who is easily offended. With that being the case, posting on threads like this should be something you should reconsider. This is a forum to discuss and debate different beliefs and find out what is believed by the different groups. Things can be said that come off offensive. I do not take it personally myself.

The only judgment I make about anyone is how they treat others.

In your other post you insulted me by saying that I should not be judgemental and now you talk about how you judge? This is very hypocritical, is it not?

I don't categorize them as "saved" and "unsaved" (as if it is ANYBODY's pregogative to be so presumptuous).

Matthew 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

The Bible stands strong on this point. We are to be aware of the fruits that are sown in those around us as proof of true salvation. Many verses refer to this subject and is to be used by us to understand if those among us are believers. Biblical studies will help you understand these concepts.

People who have to undercut someone else's position in order to make their own position look good don't have much of a position in the first place, as far as I'm concerned.

I think this is another sign of your feelings being hurt easily. These posts have nothing to with making my beliefs look better than yours. This about doing as the Bible tells us and examining those religions around us to see if they are false or not.

With your posts you are making yourself look to have no position. Anyone who wants to say they believe in the Bible but show themselves weak in understanding it should not try and defend its precepts.

 

[Katzpur]

I never said that they were the same. I do not believe they are.

And that's exactly what I say. You make a distinction between Mormons and Christians. That's what I pointed out and when I did, you accused me of putting words into your mouth.

Thing about it is, if you think I have anything to do with it, its all in your mind. I have not went out of my way to hurt you in any fashion. You think you know me from a few posts you have seen me make? Now that is what I call being judgemental. You do not know me, how I feel, or what I practice in my life.

Well, let's put it this way... You come onto a forum where you know no one and immediately start two threads directed solely at the members of one Christian denomination. You seem to have little interest in debating on any topic except Mormonism and you have make some very misrepresentative statements about LDS beliefs. I may not know you, how you feel or what you practice in your life, but if your first posts are in any way indicative of the kind of person you are, I don't want to.

You give the impression that you are a person who is easily offended. With that being the case, posting on threads like this should be something you should reconsider.

That is hilarious! Ask anybody on this forum who has read my 18,000+ posts over the past almost 5 years if I'm easily offended and shouldn't be posting. They'll tell you you're nuts.

In your other post you insulted me by saying that I should not be judgemental and now you talk about how you judge? This is very hypocritical, is it not?

Probably. So I'm not perfect.

Matthew 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

The Bible stands strong on this point. We are to be aware of the fruits that are sown in those around us as proof of true salvation. Many verses refer to this subject and is to be used by us to understand if those among us are believers. Biblical studies will help you understand these concepts.

It's not your job to decide if I'm a believer or not. I say I am and you don't believe me anyway. So why should I bother?

I think this is another sign of your feelings being hurt easily. These posts have nothing to with making my beliefs look better than yours. This about doing as the Bible tells us and examining those religions around us to see if they are false or not.

You know, I think the bottom line is that I just really don't like Baptists. Are you happy now?

Oh, and for the third time... let's see if you can read any better than you can count: Please provide us with the Biblical definition of a Christian. When you've done that, give us a few examples of the "doctrinal differences" you see between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

 

[ljam49]

And that's exactly what I say. You make a distinction between Mormons and Christians. That's what I pointed out and when I did, you accused me of putting words into your mouth.

Well, let's put it this way... You come onto a forum where you know no one and immediately start two threads directed solely at the members of one Christian denomination. You seem to have little interest in debating on any topic except Mormonism and you have make some very misrepresentative statements about LDS beliefs. I may not know you, how you feel or what you practice in your life, but if your first posts are in any way indicative of the kind of person you are, I don't want to.

That is hilarious! Ask anybody on this forum who has read my 18,000+ posts over the past almost 5 years if I'm easily offended and shouldn't be posting. They'll tell you you're nuts.

Probably. So I'm not perfect.

It's not your job to decide if I'm a believer or not. I say I am and you don't believe me anyway. So why should I bother?

You know, I think the bottom line is that I just really don't like Baptists. Are you happy now?

Oh, and for the third time... let's see if you can read any better than you can count: Please provide us with the Biblical definition of a Christian. When you've done that, give us a few examples of the "doctrinal differences" you see between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Done. You have shown enough shallow thinking for me to just move on and post with those who have something to offer.

 

[Katzpur]

Fourth request: Please provide us with the Biblical definition of a Christian. When you've done that, give us a few examples of the "doctrinal differences" you see between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

 

[challupa]

challupa:



This is correct. Christians are monotheistic and Mormons are politheistic..

How are they any more polytheistic than Christians who believe in the Trinity and have two ways of describing what the Trinity is? A muslim would call you a polytheist too because of this. Allah is the monotheistic god in their opinion.

No, that is not true. I base that on what the Bible says and the example of what a martyr is by the Christians in history. .

Yes you are getting your opinion from the bible, but it is still your choice that makes you choose the bible over other holy scriptures. So in a sense it is still just your opinion. In this case it is your opinion that the bible is the only correct source to quote from.

Read Hebrews 11: 35-39. Those spoken of lost their lives by various means not fighting back and God says about them that they were men of whom the world was not worthy. There is story after story in Foxes Book of the Martyrs where men of faith were told they would be burned at the stake if they did not renounce their faith. They peacefully went to the stakes, did not fight back, but praised God for allowing them to die for Him. This in the Christian world is how we see martyrs for God. .

Again, I believe this is an interpretation based on your beliefs. Others have pointed out to you that this is not always the case but you seem to not like that view. It may be the "norm", but is it the only acceptable way to be a martyr?

I do not hate any man and as for mormons, I do not hate them. But the doctrines they are taught are not what Christians believe and in that respect shows that they are not Christians. Are you aware that up until about 30 years ago Mormons refused to be called Chrisitans and openly admitted that what Christians believed was wrong and they would not have anything to do with it?.

I did not say you hated anyone, to my knowledge. If I implied it, it was not my intention. Are you sure about the 30 years ago thing. I had a Mormon friend when I was in school almost 37 years ago and she always called herself a Christian. I always thought they were.

Its not my opinion that is determining whether they are Christians or not. It is the doctrinal differences in the BoM and Bible that shows them not to be Christians..

Well here I am not equipped to comment either way because I am not versed in the differences between the two books.

I don't think I am out of place in saying that this is a forum to discuss religious differences, correct? There is no debate if differences are not stated and brought into discussion. Thanks for the post. Your got your point across without being to harsh.

You are not out of place having a difference of opinion. I do have to wonder though why you hold that different opinion about Mormons. Protestants seem to view Catholics as non Christians too, and this is something I don't understand either. You all look to Jesus as your role model. To me that means you are a Christian...

 

[ljam49]

Fourth request: Please provide us with the Biblical definition of a Christian. When you've done that, give us a few examples of the "doctrinal differences" you see between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

You can open up another post for that. This post is about whether Joseph Smith was or was not a "martyr"

 

[Humanistheart]

What part of what I said do you consider to be "fabled lore," Humanist?

Since you are not able to cite any historical source for that, I'm going to have to say all of it.

 

[Katzpur]

Are you sure about the 30 years ago thing. I had a Mormon friend when I was in school almost 37 years ago and she always called herself a Christian. I always thought they were.

We have always called ourselves Christians. For anyone to say otherwise is a lie.

Well here I am not equipped to comment either way because I am not versed in the differences between the two books.

I am asked ljam four times to give some examples of these differences, but so far, he has not done so.

 

[challupa]

We have always called ourselves Christians. For anyone to say otherwise is a lie.

I am asked ljam four times to give some examples of these differences, but so far, he has not done so.

Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought you were considered part of the Christian faith. Thought I had been wrong all this time. Was a tad worried there for a second! LOL

 

[Humanistheart]

challupa:
This is correct. Christians are monotheistic and Mormons are politheistic.
.

No, christians are qualified monothiestic, large difference.

 

[Katzpur]

No, christians are qualified monothiestic, large difference.

Again, it's a label. Big deal. It isn't a label God created. It's a label men created. When I hear trinitarians say, "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, but there is just one God," I think, "Yeah, you can use whatever words you want to get around the contradiction in what you just said, but it doesn't make it any less of a contradition. You've still just said that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1."

 

[Humanistheart]

Again, it's a label. Big deal. It isn't a label God created. It's a label men created. When I hear trinitarians say, "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, but there is just one God," I think, "Yeah, you can use whatever words you want to get around the contradiction in what you just said, but it doesn't make it any less of a contradition. You've still just said that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1."

So your agreeing with me. And yes it is a label, a man made label for a man made god concept.

 

[ljam49]

So your agreeing with me. And yes it is a label, a man made label for a man made god concept.

Atleast you are able to see the concepts for what they mean. Mormon religion is polytheistic and Christians are Monothiestic by definition.

 

[Katzpur]

So your agreeing with me. And yes it is a label, a man made label for a man made god concept.

And since it's a man-made label, men will use it as they wish. It really means nothing whatsoever to God.

 

[ljam49]

And since it's a man-made label, men will use it as they wish. It really means nothing whatsoever to God.

What do you think means something to God?

Would Joseph Smith killing other people while they were trying to do evil deeds and kill him being something satisfying to God?

 

[Katzpur]

What do you think means something to God?

Integrity.

Would Joseph Smith killing other people while they were trying to do evil deeds and kill him being something satisfying to God?

I don't believe that God condemns a person killing in self-defense.

 

[ljam49]

Integrity.

I don't believe that God condemns a person killing in self-defense.

I will disagree due to the fact that the Bible does not come close to teaching that.

Again:

Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

This says that you are blessed if these things happen to you. Nothing before or after with an escape clause for certain situations.

Matthew 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Again no escape clause. The Bible does not state that God would be proud of you and ready to pat you on the back because you stood up and took a pistol and killed someone while they were trying to kill you. This really says alot about those Christians martyrs that did not fight back. They felt blessed to die for their belief in God.

I am not trying to comdemn you or your opinion. This is just a matter of looking for the truth. Katspur, do you feel the need for truth (that is not meant in a smart way)? I know I do and I search God's word and study it to see what He says is truth. Not my truth, but His.

Again, I am not looking to attack you personally or condemn you. A debate is just that. A debate. I think its fair to say that debates can expose truth and even help in learning things where we might not know them.

 

[Katzpur]

The reason anti-Mormons use this label is to demean the Latter-day Saint position. If you can convince people that we worship three different deities in the same way the ancient Greeks worshipped Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Apollo and others, I guess that in your own mind, you've scored a few points, even if is is by misrepresenation. These deities, as anyone who had studied them knows, each had his or her own dominion. They were proud and petty, and often pretty hostile towards one another. In dealing with them, humans had to work at knowing how they could please one without offending another one. Humans would even make deals with one of them which would result in another one reacting by punishing the human and doing something hateful to the other god.

This is completely counter to the LDS belief in a Godhead of three Gods who are united so perfectly that they feel, think, speak and act "as one." It bears absolutely no resemblance at all to a Godhead wherein each of the three love one another and love mankind. It would be impossible to worship one of them without simultaneously worship the others. It would be impossible to either please or displease any of the three without also simultaneously pleasing or displeasing respectively the other two. I don't mind labels. What I mind is the intent with which people apply those labels. If it is intended to mislead, which it almost always is, it's dishonest, plain and simple. The word "monotheistic" is never used in the Bible. We Latter-day Saints clearly do worship a Father, Son and Holy Ghost who are "one" in the way in which the Bible explains their unity. We don't believe that they are all parts of a single, indivisible substance, but then the Bible doesn't say they are either. If it makes some Christians feel superior by saying we're polytheistic and they're not, I guess they just need that added assurance that they're better than the next guy. Whatever. All's fair in love and war, I guess.