Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Hong Xiuquan]

Depending upon the poster, you might have a point. But this particular poster has already said (on another thread) that Mormons are polytheists and non-Christians. Yeah, the name of the Church is quite a mouthful, but when people choose to drop the two most important words in it, there's usually a reason.

Well, can an LDS member become a god or not? If so, your religion is a polytheistic one.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Well, as one LDS author said, "It either happened or it didn't. No other perspective is of any relevance." I believe it happened.

Yes...I believe it happened too...which is more than what most Christians will say. Most Christian, non LDS members believe JS was lying. I don't believe that. However,
I believe JS misunderstood what he saw and who he saw. JS had good intentions.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Door to door witnessing, like street witnessing is ultimately a waste of time. This isn't just true of Mormons, but of JW's and other assorted beliefs, too. The reason for this is that if someone isn't ready/willing to convert, nothing you say is ever going to change their mind. And if they are ready to convert, they'll probably have found some means of doing so before you ever knock on their door.

I politely disagree. When I was in Taiwan, LDS were very active there with door knocking as their principal tool for winning new converts. And they record all conversions for statistical purposes. I spoke to one member who stated that 5000 Taiwanese had converted that year.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

You're right, HongXiuquan, it was incredibly unusual for Heavenly Father to appear personally to Joseph, but not entirely unprecedented. At Christ's baptism there was a voice declaring "This is my beloved Son.". Granted, just a voice but clearly a separate being from Christ.

When you consider the standard teachings that the Father and the Son are the same person (along with the Holy Ghost), to me it makes sense for both to appear to Joseph at the same time, no better way to demonstrate a very critical point about Their nature.

As for the idea of Joseph being possessed, I can see where you get the idea. He was clearly attacked while trying to pray in the grove, but the possessions experienced in the Bible that I can think of off the top of my head werent momentary events that left no lasting effect. Those who had demons cast out of hem by Christ and the prophets and apostles were continually afflicted with the effects.

Thanks for your comments. I'm not attacking your argument but I'm requesting that you submit some verses to back up your statement: "Those who had demons cast out of them by Christ and the apostles were continually afflicted with the effects". I'm not sure which verse you have in mind.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, The name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We prefer to be called appropiatley LDS or as speaking of our Church as a whole, Mormonism is prefered. We believe that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet of God. What sect of Protestantism do you embrace?

I don't embrace an particular sect or denomination. I'm comfortable in most denominations. I just find a church locally where people love God. I'm not concerned about what denomination they are. As long as they preach forgiveness through the blood of Christ and that only.....as a means of salvation.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: Hi A Vestigial Mote, As far as the claim by Joseph Smith that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, we share with people that the only way to know if this really happened is to pray to God and by the power of the Holy Ghost one can know the truth of this. As far as our missionaries, they are young men and woman who leave there families, friends for two years to share the message of our Church. I think it takes a lot of courage to knock on a stranger's door to share a message that we feel will bring happiness and peace to someone's life. Most people do not have that courage to go to a stranger to share a message of conviction with them. The Lord said that he would use the weak things to bring about his gospel message to all, I think you would agree that most of our missionaries have no experience in Proselytizing and believe it or not, some of them have never read the Bible which is a weakness to them. We do not share our message and say, well, believe it or not it is true, take it or leave it like a lot of other Churches and there missionaries do. We believe that a person can find out for themselves by asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if our message is true or not, we believe that is the only way. I have been a member for thirty years, I was a Jew before I joined this Church, it is a lot to take in, there is no mistake about that, one definitely has to be open minded to our message.

Norman. Hi again. I live in Indonesia. I see good people.....good Muslims....millions of them....praying to God every day. And they are praying to the Biblical God (though many will debate this). I don't believe that praying to God is enough. You suggest to people to pray to God to see if the book of Mormon is correct and if JS' vision was true. People then go on a "feeling". Does the book of Mormon feel right? So, if it does, after prayer, then you convert. I don't think this is enough for conversion. Millions of Muslims feel right about praying 5 times a day and after prayer and reading the Koran, they feel and believe that their religion is correct.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, What is your interest in Joseph Smith's vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ?

That is a great question Norman. I'm not just interested in his vision...but all first visions and first encounters of a spiritual kind. Why? Because that is where it all began. We are going back to the beginning.....to see how that religion started.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I've got to go to church.....so I'll continue later....when I return. "I'll be back" as AS said. God bless.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

To Norman: Thank you for the long explanation, which is a good one. I would definitely argue on your point about Satan "not being able to counterfeit the works of God". When I say God, I'm referring to God the father. I have evidence that Satan (Lucifer) and his friends, the other demons, can do miracles and imitate God too. I'd like to present some of this evidence for you to comment on as you are a man who takes every question as a serious one, as I do:

Chris Kline's First Encounter with the Spiritual Realm

The following are extracts from A Brilliant Deception by Chris Kline. Three pages have been used: 34b, 35a, and 36a. This extract shows two demons working together to convince Chris that God was in her room.

"Back in my room I kicked my door shut and crossed over to the desk to unload the books. A loud voice stopped me in my tracks. It came from behind yet above me, calling my name: 'Chris'. I turned abruptly towards the door but there was no one there. But even as I turned I knew I would find no one. The Voice had come from a point above me- too high for someone in the room.

The Voice continued to talk to me. 'Don't be afraid Chris. I am God and I have a message for you. Your father is here with me also.'

I knew I wasn't dreaming and felt remarkably at ease. Talking to the Voice or having it talk to me didn't seem so impossible. I wasn't afraid. In fact I felt it was a privilege. I stood looking up at the ceiling, and then I heard my name called again, three times. This time the call came from outside the window.

My room was on the seventh floor and the window was shut tight. I couldn't even hear traffic noise normally so I shouldn't have been able to hear anything from outside. But when I made a move towards the window the Voice inside the room told me not to go near it. Suddenly the whole window began to rattle and before I could think what was happening the Voice said, 'Satan is trying to get in here.'

.........................All of a sudden my body temperature rose dramatically. I was tingling all over. Without any warning a bright white light filled my head. It was crackling and dazzling; consuming me with its comfort. I had heard that, if you were good, someday you would disappear and go to Heaven. I thought my time had come. Joy flooded through me at the prospect of disappearing and materialising somewhere else. I was enthralled and totally unafraid. I could feel my new companion inside me looking out of my eyes.

I did a lot of writing that night but the hand-writing wasn't mine. The Voice said I was the same as Jesus on the cross. He had come back to life in me. I didn't believe it. 'Look at your hands and you'll see the scars,' the Voice commanded. I knew from films that Jesus had been nailed to a cross and to my surprise I saw that the lines on each palm formed a cross in the centre of my hand."

A Short Summary of A Brilliant Deception by Chris Kline:

Chris was not a Christian when she got possessed by a demon (The Voice). She believed that it was Christ who entered her. She had opened herself to possession due to being a stripper and using drugs.

Chris was used as an instrument of a demon to write messages, which were supposed to be from God. She says "I had no control over when the writing started or stopped. Words flowed from my pen without effort or thought from me. It was totally automatic." She ended up with 4,000 pages of messages. She found a writer who she paid to write a book based on some of the 4000 pages she had collected. After seven years, the book was finally finished. The Voice chose the title: "God is My Father". Some of the things in the book were true to convince people that it was God's book. For example, Chris mentions "Even my automatic writing had stated, 'Booze is a tool of the Devil." Chris was given signs. An example of this, in Chris' words: "Feathers were a hallmark of the Voice. About a dozen times, when the Voice spoke through me or to me, a white feather floated down, apparently from no where."

Later, when Chris became a Christian, she had to be prayed for to have the demon leave. The demon put up a fight on its way out of her. She burned all her manuscripts for the book before it could be published. Praise God! Chris' question: "Why did God let me go on believing the Voice was God, when it wasn't?"

So, Norman...Satan (Lucifier) and his friends, the other demons do counterfeit "God the father". I have other examples too but I'd like to hear your comments first.

 

[Katzpur]

I was actually following your lead.

You were following my lead? That's a good one.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, can an LDS member become a god or not? If so, your religion is a polytheistic one.

You say you have a lot of Muslims in your family. According to Islam, Christianity is a polytheistic religion because there are three individuals who are called "God." If you want to play word games, go right ahead, but that's all you're doing. In the Book of Mormon itself, we read:

"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." (2 Nephi 31:21).

That's probably a more straightforward statement than you'll even find in the Bible as to the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Even in the Bible, though, Paul acknowledged the existence of beings who are "called gods" (and not only on earth but in heaven). He says:

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

We Mormons are exactly the same kind of polytheists as the Apostle Paul and C.S. Lewis were.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

You were following my lead? That's a good one.

I really don't want to have to bother with this type of thing here. You have LDS under "your" profile picture. I'm not joking. You wrote it. I shouldn't have to prove it to you. I'm following your lead....I took it from there. If you don't believe it then what more can I say? This type of thing is just wasting my time.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Well, can an LDS member become a god or not?

I was hoping to get a direct answer to this question. A yes or no would be enough. Christians do not seek to become gods or believe they can become one. Only Bible believing LDS members are claiming that. Note: said with no aggression or mockery intended.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Hong: I have added comments below after comments by Katzpur.

You say you have a lot of Muslims in your family. According to Islam, Christianity is a polytheistic religion because there are three individuals who are called "God." If you want to play word games, go right ahead, but that's all you're doing.

Hong: Muslims misunderstand the concept of the trinity. Humans are 2 in one. We have a body and a spirit. I'm not suggesting we are gods though. God has a spirit and the word which became incarnate in human form: Jesus. In the Koran it is stated that Christians have 3 gods which are Mary the mother, God the father, and Jesus the son. This is a misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. Christians have never believed that Mary was a god or part of the trinity.

Katzpur: In the Book of Mormon itself, we read:

"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." (2 Nephi 31:21).

That's probably a more straightforward statement than you'll even find in the Bible as to the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Even in the Bible, though, Paul acknowledged the existence of beings who are "called gods" (and not only on earth but in heaven). He says:

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Hong; You have changed the verse. And you need to mention the whole paragraph to understand the complete meaning too. My NIV states: "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in Heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Corinthians 8:4-6. The mainstream Christian view on these verses is that the other "so-called" gods that the other non-Christians believed to be real, were not real. All other gods in Biblical times were represented in the form of idols. Paul says in the verse you didn't mention that these idols were "nothing (meaning not real) and that there is no God but one". You can't just take a few verses out of the Bible without considering the context and the complete argument the writer is making.

Katzpur: We Mormons are exactly the same kind of polytheists as the Apostle Paul and C.S. Lewis were.

Hong: This is a uniquely LDS interpretation on what CS Lewis and Paul believed. No mainstream Christian denominations teach this.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Katzpur: I come to your door without aggression or a spirit of mockery. I come to discuss with you the first vision of JS.

 

[Muffled]

Here is a copy of Joseph Smith's first vision.....

Extract from Joseph Smith 2 [background information first....In 1820, Joseph Smith had a question about which of the Protestant denominations was correct, which he wanted to ask God about]

Joseph Smith 2:15-20a following...."After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But , exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know of which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right- and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I can not write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into Heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home."

Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

I have read this before in a Mormon publication. I believe it is not prophecy but personal. He asked what he should do and received an answer for what he should do.

 

[Muffled]

Well, as one LDS author said, "It either happened or it didn't. No other perspective is of any relevance." I believe it happened.

I can confirm by the Holy Spirit that he had a valid experience with God in this instance.

 

[Muffled]

Hong: I have added comments below after comments by Katzpur.



Hong: This is a uniquely LDS interpretation on what CS Lewis and Paul believed. No mainstream Christian denominations teach this.

I would like to know where you think it differs?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I can confirm by the Holy Spirit that he had a valid experience with God in this instance.

I can confirm from the Holy Spirit that it wasn't. Which of us is correct?

 

[InChrist]

I believe the biblical scriptures confirm that the vision of Joseph Smith was another gospel than that of simple faith in the Savior Jesus Christ which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3) In other words a false gospel which Paul warned against..

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 2 Corinthians 11:3-4