Judaism and Christian Trinitarianism

[Brickjectivity]

Superhuman, but not God.

Be well.

Just like you!

You and your children be well, too.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Question:

• Are the terms "the one God" and "the Ein Sof" synonyms, i.e. is God the Ein Sof And is the Ein Sof God?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It is the purpose of this post to explain the two Jewish approaches to Christian Trinitarianism.

Judaism usually doesnt deal with Christianity to be real honest. I know it may be strange to some Chrisitans, but Jews just dont get together and talk about Jesus. Yet there, in the deep background, is our legendary confict over who Jesus is, and what is the nature of God.

Jews as you know, teach a very, very pure form of monotheism -- there is only one God, and he has no form (nor will he ever, since this is his nature). We are forbidden by the Torah to make idols of anything in the heavens above or earth below -- God is not any of those things, no matter how spsectacular they are

Christians, on the other hand, have a very complicated doctrine called the Trinity, in which they emphatically state they believe in only one God, one essense, but this one God is made up of three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To further complicate things, one of those three, the Son, is not only fully God, but also fully man. They are grouped in the monotheistic camp, but obviously it is a very muddied monotheism. It can turn you head inside out trying to understand Trinitarianism, as Christians will admit.

Judaism has had its problems with Christianity, given our long perecution by the church for starters. But we do have deal with Jesus on some level because the christian religion is all around us, even today.


The first approach is to simply write it off completely as avodah zarah, or idolatry. Why? Because first Christianity fudges on the mono of monotheism. The Torah clearly states, "Hear O Israel, the LORD is God, the LORD is ONE." But the harder part is this idea that God became a man. It's just nonsense to Jews. Three times in the Tanakh (OT) it is written that God is not a man. Three times. Must be important, dont you think? Essentially, Christians have taken something from creation and said, "that person is God." This despite that Deuteronomy 5:7 (5:8 in christian bibles) says loudly, "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." They still see God in the image of Christ and that is idolatry.

There is a second approach to Trinitarianism, where it is seen as "shi-tuf." Shi-tuf means association. In the case of Christianity, the man (Jesus) is associated with God, to the degree that the two are confused in their minds. A christian will say that they pray to the father through Jesus. Thats useful wording. Imagine a room with a glass ceiling, and on the glass is etched the name of Jesus. The christian in the room looks up to heaven to pray, and between him and God is this name of Jesus. They cannot see Jesus without seeing God, and cannot see God without seeing Jesus. In this school of thought, Christians are actually praying to the same God as Jews, but are just mixed up about it due to this association. (Just a note to the side -- it is this concept which makes it possible for Jews to do business with Christians, which they could not do if it were a simple case of avodah zarah, but that is a post for another time.)

There is another instance of shi-tuf in history that is worth mentioning. In Egypt, there was a Pharoah that overhauled the entire country so that it was monotheistic. Only one God, Aten, the sun god, could be worshiped. Aten was the simple disk of the sun, with no human characteristics. All other gods were forbidden to the people of Egypt. Once again, the idea is that Egypt was actually worshiping the one true God, but was mixed up about it becuse of this association of God with the sun. I hope this illustration better helps you all understand what it means to say that Trinitarianism is shi-tuf.

Jews are not allowed to practice shi-tuf. For a Jew to worhsip jesus or aten, it would be considered still to be avodah zarah. But in this view, non-Jews do have the freedom to make this sort of error. Its not the ideal, but its workable.

I know this is new to a lot of people. I'll look for your questions.

I can't speak for trinitarians since I don't believe in the trinity.

But as for my view, God didn't turn himself into a man. He simply took on the body of a man to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. It was necessary for that body to be able to shed blood and die. That was why he took on the seed of Abraham and not the nature of an angel. But that fleshly body was weak like we are. And the flesh had to be without sin to be a perfect sacrifice. So the flesh had to pray to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. So I believe the Messiah was YHWH, the God of the Jews, here on earth dwelling in a fleshly body that he sacrificed for our sins.

 

[firedragon]

I can't speak for trinitarians since I don't believe in the trinity.

But as for my view, God didn't turn himself into a man. He simply took on the body of a man to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. It was necessary for that body to be able to shed blood and die. That was why he took on the seed of Abraham and not the nature of an angel. But that fleshly body was weak like we are. And the flesh had to be without sin to be a perfect sacrifice. So the flesh had to pray to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. So I believe the Messiah was YHWH, the God of the Jews, here on earth dwelling in a fleshly body that he sacrificed for our sins.

Isn't that a non-jewish concept of Messiah?

I understand that you dont believe in the trinity which means you will not fall into the heresy category of Sabellianism. But you believing Jesus was the YHWH it is simply one of the biggest blasphemies in the eyes of the Jews since the topic is about Judaism and Christian trinity. Can you please elaborate on when this concept that Jesus, the Messiah was YHWH himself arise?

You know the other question that arises from your thesis above. Why does God have to become a man and sacrifice himself in order to be a sacrifice for man's sin? Is he not powerful enough to do it without anthropomorphising himself?

 

[1213]

I must have missed those verses. Where in the Torah do we deify a human?

These speak about gods and son’s of God:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, that God's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose.
Genesis 6:1-2

Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Ex. 7:1

Obviously, there is only one true God, as also Jesus said, but many have been called gods. But, there is clearly the idea of many gods.

… For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

These speak about gods and son’s of God: ...

... but in no way demonstrates Torah deifying a man. Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I can't speak for trinitarians since I don't believe in the trinity.

But as for my view, God didn't turn himself into a man. He simply took on the body of a man to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. It was necessary for that body to be able to shed blood and die. That was why he took on the seed of Abraham and not the nature of an angel. But that fleshly body was weak like we are. And the flesh had to be without sin to be a perfect sacrifice. So the flesh had to pray to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. So I believe the Messiah was YHWH, the God of the Jews, here on earth dwelling in a fleshly body that he sacrificed for our sins.

Jesus was certainly not the God of the Jews. Our God has no form.

 

[firedragon]

This God is one; He is neither two nor more than two; He is simply one. His unity is not like any other oneness that exists in the world. His is not the unity of a kind that encompasses many other single particulars; and it is not like the unity of a body that is divided into parts and extremities; rather it is a unity that is entirely unlike any other sort of oneness in the universe. -(Maimonides)

 

[1213]

... but in no way demonstrates Torah deifying a man.

If Ex. 7:1 is not deifying human, what would be?

Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Ex. 7:1

But, what you say is not a problem for me. Because my point is, Jesus is also not deified in the Bible.

 

[pearl]

But this raises the question of what one can mean by "person", in such a context. Given that we are speaking of a supernatural being, able to permeate creation, rather than a physical individual localised in space ad time, what is a "person"? If one defines person in terms of distinct roles, modes of action and ways of interacting with humanity, what other attributes would one expect such a non-corporeal "person" to have, I wonder?

Good question. Needless to say our concept of 'person' is not that of antiquity, but is alien to it. The Monarchians maintained three 'roles' in which God shows himself to us in the course of history. The word 'persona' , and Greek equivalent, 'prosopon, are the language of the theater, the mask that made the actor into the embodiment of someone else. Modalists thought the three forms of God were three 'modi' through which our consciousness perceives God and explains him to itself. Although we only know God as reflected in human thought, faith has it him that we know.
And then there is 'Subordinationism and Monarchianism' offering no promising solution. 'Subordinationism' - God himself is only a single being; Christ is not God but only a being particularly close to God,
Monarchianism in which the God who meets us, the Creator then in Christ as Son and as Holy Spirit, revealing ourselves but little of God himself.
The wording of the trinitarian dogma expresses the perception that God as substance, ad 'being' is absolutely one. Within the one God there is the reciprocal exchange of word and love in their attachment to each other, person nothing more than the relation.

 

[Rival]

If Ex. 7:1 is not deifying human, what would be?

Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Ex. 7:1

But, what you say is not a problem for me. Because my point is, Jesus is also not deified in the Bible.

I'm not really sure why this is confusing people.

G-d is saying, 'Hey Moshe, you know how like I talk to you, then you give my message to other people? Yeah? Well, that's what going on here. You give your message to Aaron, who then transmits it to Paro. You're gonna play the role I play and he's going to play the role you play. So you're gonna be like G-d and he's your prophet.'

That's what is said in the next sentence,

'You shall speak all that I command you, and Aaron, your brother, shall speak to Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel out of his land.'

It's just an allegory.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Jesus was certainly not the God of the Jews. Our God has no form.

He was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Is YHWH not the God of the Jews?

Isaiah said he saw YHWH sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up. Isaiah 6:1-3

Job said "yet in my flesh I shall see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another" Job 19:25-27

Abraham seemed to meet and talk to YHWH in Genesis 18:23-33

Jacob seemed to have wrestled with someone whom he asked their name. and in Genesis 32:30 said he had seen God face to face, and his life was preserved.

Based on these verses and others, it appears that at times God has chosen to take on some kind of a bodily form.

 

[Rival]

He was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Is YHWH not the God of the Jews?

Numbers 23:19:
God is not man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Numbers 23:19:
God is not man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

I never said he was a man. He is an eternal Spirit. But he can choose to manifest himself as he chooses. If he chose to make himself a fleshly body to dwell in - is he not able?

Respond to the rest of what I had in post #32

 

[Rival]

I never said he was a man. He is an eternal Spirit. But he can choose to manifest himself as he chooses. If he chose to make himself a fleshly body to dwell in - is he not able?

You said Jesus is God manifest in the flesh; that makes him a man. It's possible, but G-d Himself tell us He's not a man, nor the son of man. Yet Jesus was a man.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You said Jesus is God manifest in the flesh; that makes him a man. It's possible, but G-d Himself tell us He's not a man, nor the son of man. Yet Jesus was a man.

I didn't say he turned himself into a man. He made himself a fleshly body to dwell in and then sacrificed that body for the sins of mankind.

 

[Rival]

I didn't say he turned himself into a man. He made himself a fleshly body to dwell in and then sacrifice that body for the sins of mankind.

So who was sacrificed?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So who was sacrificed?

Well, it was the body that YHWH had taken on. The eternal Spirit could never die. But the fleshly body he took on could. So in that sense, you could say YHWH loved us so much that he shed his blood for us.

Once the eternal Spirit raised the body up a glorified permanent spiritual body, that can never die again. He ascended and took the throne. To reign on the throne of David forever.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If Ex. 7:1 is not deifying human, what would be?

Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Ex. 7:1

But, what you say is not a problem for me. Because my point is, Jesus is also not deified in the Bible.

It's saying that Moses would seem like a god to Pharoah. NOT that Moses was God or a god.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

He was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Is YHWH not the God of the Jews?

Isaiah said he saw YHWH sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up. Isaiah 6:1-3

Job said "yet in my flesh I shall see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another" Job 19:25-27

Abraham seemed to meet and talk to YHWH in Genesis 18:23-33

Jacob seemed to have wrestled with someone whom he asked their name. and in Genesis 32:30 said he had seen God face to face, and his life was preserved.

Based on these verses and others, it appears that at times God has chosen to take on some kind of a bodily form.

Christians say that Jesus is God in the flesh. Jews deny this. Its really that simple.

Abraham talked with an Angel through whom God spoke.